SPLIT: From Fatima...Images & the Salvation of Catholics

[Mannyfit75]

Both interpretation cannot be correct. The woman cannot be both Israel and Mary. Verse six goes on to say that the woman fled to the wilderness for1260 days. This is end time prophecy where the nation of israel will run out of Jerusalem when attacked. Israel fleeing during the end times is backed up with other scripture dan 12:7. Mary is in heaven how could she flee into the wilderness.

Do you believe in Sola Scriptura?

Because this is my interpretation of the passage. I believe the woman is Mary, the Church, and the Israel.

If you don’t believe my interpretation, Sola Scriptura falls apart because you don’t believe my intepretation of the passage.

 

[newbie1234]

That is one interpretation of Revelation 12, which can be found in Catholic tradition along-side the interpetation that the woman is Mary. There’s nothing stopping us from believing that the women clothed in the sun is Mary and Israel (or the Church).

Pax

How about watching her own son die the way he did before her very eyes? The Gospel according to Luke gives us some indication of the great pain she endured with her son.

Luke 2:35: And thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that, out of many hearts thoughts may be revealed.

I encourage you to read this here article about the devotion some Catholics have to the Seven Sorrows of Mary. I’m not asking for a reply from you. Just check it out whenever you want.

I agree that it must have been terrible watching her Son get scourged and crucified. Tremendous sacrifice.Then three days later He resurrected and it was the most glorious thing in the history of mankind. So there was what 5 or 6 days of grief and then neverending glory! You compare that with the lifetime of torture and death that paul went through?
BTW sorry about yelling and nastiness I’ve been at this for 15 hours now. I’m a little tired.

 

[newbie1234]

Do you believe in Sola Scriptura?

Because this is my interpretation of the passage. I believe the woman is Mary, the Church, and the Israel.

If you don’t believe my interpretation, Sola Scriptura falls apart because you don’t believe my intepretation of the passage.

Sorry but your interpretation is wrong. Ask anyone who studies escatology.You could say the woman is the queen of england but without scriptural support your interpretation would be wrong. Sorry about yelling too.

 

[havemercy]

So there was what 5 or 6 days of grief and then neverending glory! You compare that with the lifetime of torture and death that paul went through?

Since when has the amount of pain or suffering endured ever been a pre-requisite for grace? Grace is a free gift, and Mary received it. I don’t know why you’re so persistent in belittling the “Mother of the Lord” (as Elizabeth put it).

BTW sorry about yelling and nastiness I’ve been at this for 15 hours now. I’m a little tired.

If there’s been any nastiness and yelling, I wasn’t aware of it. But by all means, take a load off. These matters are testy.

Goodnight!

 

[Eden]

Both interpretation cannot be correct. The woman cannot be both Israel and Mary. Verse six goes on to say that the woman fled to the wilderness for1260 days. This is end time prophecy where the nation of israel will run out of Jerusalem when attacked. Israel fleeing during the end times is backed up with other scripture dan 12:7. Mary is in heaven how could she flee into the wilderness.

Why can the interpretation not be both Israel and Mary? Mary brought forth a male child and fled into the wilderness of Egypt with the child Jesus, did she not?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Sorry but your interpretation is wrong. Ask anyone who studies escatology. Sorry about yelling.

No it isn’t. You can’t convince me otherwise, I already given you Scripture Text to Support Mary’s Queenship.

I’m not going to discuss this with you again about Mary’s Queenship.

This is part of the Jewish tradition of the Davidic Kingdom. Surely you know that Jesus is a descend of David.

David we know is a King of Israel. Likewise, Jesus inherited his Kingdom. Just like the Davidic Kingdom, Jewish Kings have mothers as their Queen. So Jesus continue that tradition.

I see it clearly in Scripture, and so do other devout Catholics.

And the Church through its Magisterium acknowledges this as Truth. The Church got Her authority from Jesus. To question this or any teachings of Catholic Church, is to question Jesus Christ himself.

St. Ignatius of Antioch said in 107 A.D. "See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. --The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans 107 A.D.

Protestantism didn’t came about until 1517 A.D. So I give much credit to Jesus Christ for giving us his Church. The 2,000 yrs old Catholic Church has more creditable than your interpretation. St. Ignatius of Antioch is the disciple of St. John the Apostle, the writer of Gospel of John and the Book of Revelation.

He knows the Apostles more than any of us.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Why can the interpretation not be both Israel and Mary? Mary brought forth a male child and fled into the wilderness of Egypt with the child Jesus, did she not?

That she did.

 

[Eden]

Jimmy Akin has a great series on the “Woman in Revelation”:

The Woman in Revelation 12 is part of the fusion imagery/polyvalent symbolism that is found in the book. She has four referents: Israel, the Church, Eve, and Mary.

She is Israel because she is associated with the sun, the moon, and twelve stars. These symbols are drawn from Genesis 37:9–11, in which the patriarch Joseph has a dream of the sun and moon (symbolizing his father and mother) and stars (representing his brothers), which bow down to him. Taken together, the sun, moon, and twelve stars symbolize the people of Israel.

The Woman is the Church because, as 12:17 tells us, “the rest of her offspring” are those who bear witness to Jesus, making them Christians.

The Woman is Eve because she is part of the three-way conflict also involving her Seed and the Dragon, who is identified with the ancient serpent (the one from Eden) in 20:2. This mirrors the conflict in Genesis 3:15 between Eve, the serpent, and her unborn seed—which in turn is a symbol of the conflict between Mary, Satan, and Jesus.

Finally, the Woman is Mary because she is the mother of Jesus, the child who will rule the nations with a rod of iron (19:11–16).

Because the Woman is a four-way symbol, different aspects of the narrative apply to different referents. Like Mary, she is pictured as being in heaven and she flies (mirroring Mary’s Assumption). Like the Church, she is persecuted by the Devil after the Ascension of Christ. Like Israel, she experiences great trauma as the Messiah is brought forth (figuratively) from the nation. And like Eve, it is her (distant) seed with which the serpent has his primary conflict.

Conversely, portions of the narrative do not apply to each referent. Mary did not experience literal pain when bringing forth the Messiah, but she suffered figuratively (the prophecy that a sword would pierce her heart at the Crucifixion). Eve did not ascend to heaven. And the Church did not bring forth the Messiah (rather, the Messiah brought forth his Church).

catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9705chap.asp

 

[newbie1234]

If you would like Mary to be the Queen of Heaven and the best christian ever and the queen of the universe, you go right ahead and call her that. I will refrain from that though. Keep in mind REV18:4-8 though. Very Scary.

 

[Mannyfit75]

If you would like Mary to be the Queen of Heaven and the best christian ever and the queen of the universe, you go right ahead and call her that. I will refrain from that though. Keep in mind REV18:4-8 though. Very Scary.

I find your lack of understanding disturbing. Your post is lacking any Christian charity at all. Have you read the Rule of Conduct?

1. Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board. (Source: forum.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=2 )

You are violating that by disrespecting our belief and calling it very scary.

 

[newbie1234]

Jimmy Akin has a great series on the “Woman in Revelation”:

The Woman in Revelation 12 is part of the fusion imagery/polyvalent symbolism that is found in the book. She has four referents: Israel, the Church, Eve, and Mary.

She is Israel because she is associated with the sun, the moon, and twelve stars. These symbols are drawn from Genesis 37:9–11, in which the patriarch Joseph has a dream of the sun and moon (symbolizing his father and mother) and stars (representing his brothers), which bow down to him. Taken together, the sun, moon, and twelve stars symbolize the people of Israel.

The Woman is the Church because, as 12:17 tells us, “the rest of her offspring” are those who bear witness to Jesus, making them Christians.

The Woman is Eve because she is part of the three-way conflict also involving her Seed and the Dragon, who is identified with the ancient serpent (the one from Eden) in 20:2. This mirrors the conflict in Genesis 3:15 between Eve, the serpent, and her unborn seed—which in turn is a symbol of the conflict between Mary, Satan, and Jesus.

Finally, the Woman is Mary because she is the mother of Jesus, the child who will rule the nations with a rod of iron (19:11–16).

Because the Woman is a four-way symbol, different aspects of the narrative apply to different referents. Like Mary, she is pictured as being in heaven and she flies (mirroring Mary’s Assumption). Like the Church, she is persecuted by the Devil after the Ascension of Christ. Like Israel, she experiences great trauma as the Messiah is brought forth (figuratively) from the nation. And like Eve, it is her (distant) seed with which the serpent has his primary conflict.

Conversely, portions of the narrative do not apply to each referent. Mary did not experience literal pain when bringing forth the Messiah, but she suffered figuratively (the prophecy that a sword would pierce her heart at the Crucifixion). Eve did not ascend to heaven. And the Church did not bring forth the Messiah (rather, the Messiah brought forth his Church).

catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9705chap.asp

ok you can go with that. I going to go with just the nation of Israel.

 

[Mannyfit75]

If you would like Mary to be the Queen of Heaven and the best christian ever and the queen of the universe, you go right ahead and call her that. I will refrain from that though. Keep in mind REV18:4-8 though. Very Scary.

That harlot in Rev 18:4-8 is not Mary. newbie you are getting on my nerves I’m about to loss my temper!

 

[newbie1234]

I am not saying your belief is scary. Rev18:4-8 is scary.

 

[havemercy]

I find your lack of understanding disturbing. Your post is lacking any Christian charity at all. Have you read the Rule of Conduct?

1. Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board. (Source: forum.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=2 )

You are violating that by disrespecting our belief and calling it very scary.

Haha, hey. Take a breather.

That harlot in Rev 18:4-8 is not Mary. newbie you are getting on my nerves I’m about to loss my tempter!

I think he’s making allusions to the Catholic Church here, not Mary. Either way, you’re going to have to deal with these opinions of the OP, how ever wrong or hurtful they are.

Mannyfit75:

members.aol.com/johnprh/whore2.html -Catholic View on the Book of Revelation by Scott Hahn.

I was looking all over for this. Ah, if it weren’t for Hahn, who knows where I’d be.

Love,

 

[Mannyfit75]

And a very important verse is Revelation 18: 4

Revelation 18:4
"Then I heard another voice from heaven saying,
‘Come out of her, my people,
lest you take part in her sins,
lest you share in her plagues …’ "

God said, “Come out of her, my people …”

Who does “my people” refer to and where are they at ? These are the important questions. The term “my people” is the key.

Jeremiah 31:31-33
The days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. … … … I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The term “my people” is covenant language. It is a reference of people who were in a covenant relationship with God. This becomes even more evident when we examine just what it means to be in a covenant. A covenant is very different than a contract. A covenant is as different from a contract as marriage is different from prostitution. In a contract two people exchanges goods and services. “This becomes yours and that becomes mine,” or “I will do this for you and you will do that for me.” However, contracts can be broken.

A covenant is an exchange of persons. “I will become yours and you will become mine.”

Ezekiel 37: 26-27 “I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; and I will bless them and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My dwelling place shall be with them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.”

The important question here is, where were many of God’s people when John wrote this Book ? They were still in the Old Covenant, in old worldly Jerusalem and God wanted them to leave that and come into the New Covenant. God could refer to them as “my people” because they were in His Old Covenant. The good becomes the enemy of the best if it causes you to reject the best.

Hebrews 13:12-14
“Therefore, Jesus also suffered outside the gate, to consecrate the people by his own blood. Let us then go to him outside the camp, bearing the reproach that he bore. For here we have no lasting city, but we seek the one that is to come.” NAB

 

[Mannyfit75]

members.aol.com/johnprh/whore2.html -Catholic View on the Book of Revelation by Scott Hahn.

 

[Eden]

If you would like Mary to be the Queen of Heaven

She is the Queen of Heaven. It has nothing to do with me.

and the best christian ever

Are you threatened by the idea that someone other than you might be the greatest saint?

and the queen of the universe,

The fact that you need to be sarcastic illustrates that you don’t have a valid argument.

you go right ahead and call her that.

Thank you. We could have saved ourselves all of this time and trouble if you would have reached this conclusion 10 pages ago.

I will refrain from that though.

The problem is not that you refrain from doing so, but that you believe you need to post on Catholic forums about it.

Keep in mind REV18:4-8 though.

I see you are a Dave Hunt fan. Have you read:

catholic.com/library/Hunting_the_Whore_of_Babylon.asp

Very Scary.

To me, it’s scary that Catholics are deceived into leaving the 2,000 year old Church founded by Christ from DVDs, Dave Hunt and Jack Chick.

 

[Mannyfit75]

newbie and people LIKE HIM are deceived. Christianity didn’t have people like them during the 1st Century until the Reformation.

 

[Eden]

ok you can go with that. I going to go with just the nation of Israel.

Again, the problem is that I was going with it. I was going with many things that are teachings of the 2,000 year old Church founded by Christ. But you did not believe that I could just go with that. Remember, I and the other Catholics at Catholic Answers were innocently enjoying our time on our favorite forums, when you arrived to tell us that we could not go with it. So, if you have finally reached the conclusion that we may go with it, what is the point of continuing the discussion?

 

[Mannyfit75]

I’m gonna call it a night before I get very angry at newbie.

I think it is pointless for them to come here because they are not willing to understand our belief. They come here to learn instead they are more ignorant than ever.

I’m done for the night.