SPLIT: From Fatima...Images & the Salvation of Catholics

[newbie1234]

She is the Queen of Heaven. It has nothing to do with me.

Are you threatened by the idea that someone other than you might be the greatest saint?

The fact that you need to be sarcastic illustrates that you don’t have a valid argument.

Thank you. We could have saved ourselves all of this time and trouble if you would have reached this conclusion 10 pages ago.

The problem is not that you refrain from doing so, but that you believe you need to post on Catholic forums about it.

I see you are a Dave Hunt fan. Have you read:

catholic.com/library/Hunting_the_Whore_of_Babylon.asp

To me, it’s scary that Catholics are deceived into leaving the 2,000 year old Church founded by Christ from DVDs, Dave Hunt and Jack Chick.

I never claimed to be a great saint.
The whole thing boils down to this: What are these aparitions that are appearing all over the world???
They may not have church approval but they are appearing all over the world. They CLAIM to be mary. They ask for shrines to be built. There are shrines to this apparition claiming to be mary all over the world. There are pictures of mary that cry actual tears. There are statues that cry blood. There are stories of people being healed whereever the apparition appears. Remember that building in FLA with the oil stain on the window that looked just like Mary?
Look, I believe the blessed virgin Mary was the mother of Jesus but I don’t think these aparitions are the Mary of the bible. That is the deception. That is what the dvd is about. It is not denigrating the blessed humble mary of the bible. It raises the question: if the apartions are not the Blessed Mary of the bible and they do not get church approval. Then what are they and where do they come from?

 

[newbie1234]

Again, the problem is that I was going with it. I was going with many things that are teachings of the 2,000 year old Church founded by Christ. But you did not believe that I could just go with that. Remember, I and the other Catholics at Catholic Answers were innocently enjoying our time on our favorite forums, when you arrived to tell us that we could not go with it. So, if you have finally reached the conclusion that we may go with it, what is the point of continuing the discussion?

If you are not enjoying the discussion of your faith then why do you keep posting? Why do you read what I write?
I enjoy this. That is why I am here. It forces me to bolster my position and argue my case. Why don’t you go to another thread and talk about something else?
I am not trying to win you over. You are set where you are.
I street witness to hundreds of people every week. They range from catholics to drug addicts to atheists to mormons. And many of them are drunk!
I need to have verses at my fingertips.
That is what I am practicing on this forum.
I think everyone should be able to defend what they believe in.
Tell you the truth I get a kick out of taking five people on at the same time. All the more pressure to be concise and accurate. As you know I need a ton of practice.

 

[LilyM]

I never claimed to be a great saint.
The whole thing boils down to this: What are these aparitions that are appearing all over the world???
They may not have church approval but they are appearing all over the world. They CLAIM to be mary. They ask for shrines to be built. There are shrines to this apparition claiming to be mary all over the world. There are pictures of mary that cry actual tears. There are statues that cry blood. There are stories of people being healed whereever the apparition appears. Remember that building in FLA with the oil stain on the window that looked just like Mary?
Look, I believe the blessed virgin Mary was the mother of Jesus but I don’t think these aparitions are the Mary of the bible. That is the deception. That is what the dvd is about. It is not denigrating the blessed humble mary of the bible. It raises the question: if the apartions are not the Blessed Mary of the bible and they do not get church approval. Then what are they and where do they come from?

And this has to do with the Catholic Church as an institution itself how? That has to do with me as a Catholic how exactly?

It’s like me coming to your country which I’m intensely ignorant of, and then pointing to everything of the worst and most criminal that any citizen of your country has ever done. And then going further and MAKING UP terrible things that have NEVER been true about your country. And then saying ‘your country is awful almost beyond redemption and you, newbie, are mad for having anything to do with your country - you must leave it immediately and become a citizen of another country’.

Forget the fact that every single country has its fair share of criminals and reprobates and that changing citizenship doesn’t change my character at all.

 

[Eden]

I never claimed to be a great saint.
The whole thing boils down to this: What are these aparitions that are appearing all over the world???
They may not have church approval but they are appearing all over the world. They CLAIM to be mary. They ask for shrines to be built. There are shrines to this apparition claiming to be mary all over the world. There are pictures of mary that cry actual tears. There are statues that cry blood. There are stories of people being healed whereever the apparition appears. Remember that building in FLA with the oil stain on the window that looked just like Mary?
Look, I believe the blessed virgin Mary was the mother of Jesus but I don’t think these aparitions are the Mary of the bible. That is the deception. That is what the dvd is about. It is not denigrating the blessed humble mary of the bible. It raises the question: if the apartions are not the Blessed Mary of the bible and they do not get church approval. Then what are they and where do they come from?

Why are you lumping all apparitions together? Someone can say they see Mary in an oil slick or a grilled cheese sandwich. These are not apparitions approved by the Church. Because someone says they see the Blessed Virgin in a sandwich, that means the Blessed Virgin has never appeared in an apparition? I don’t see how the that follows. This is why it is necessary to use decernment for each individual apparition, which the Church does.

I don’t know if we are allowed to discuss unapproved apparitions. I think it’s in the rules. It’s possible that some unapproved apparitions are actually the invention of people who want to call attention to their region, make money. I’m not going to go more into this.

Look at something like Fatima. The Blessed Virgin gave us a prayer: “Oh my Jesus, Save us from the Fires of Hell, Lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy. Amen.” How can you believe this is demonic?

And the apparitions at Zeitoun are incredible. They were witnessed by millions and some images were captured on film.



zeitun-eg.org/stmaridx.htm

You may not believe in the Apparition at Zeitoun, but even the Egyptian government’s investigation concluded that the Blessed Virgin was appearing above the church named after her in Zeitoun.

From the Papal Delegation:

This apparition has been accompanied by two important matters:

1. The first is the strong belief in God, the other world and the saints, thus having many of the unbelievers and those of weak belief repent and be regenerated through their new true belief.
2. The second is the miraculous cure that has occured to many patients whose cases have been examined by all concerned, medically and scientifically.

I don’t understand why you discount all apparitions because some are suspect. You wouldn’t discount a genuine miracle from God because faith-healers have faked miraculous healings would you? Likewise, you should not discount an approved apparition simply because some claims of apparitions are spurious.

 

[newbie1234]

And this has to do with the Catholic Church as an institution itself how? That has to do with me as a Catholic how exactly?

It’s like me coming to your country which I’m intensely ignorant of, and then pointing to everything of the worst and most criminal that any citizen of your country has ever done. And then going further and MAKING UP terrible things that have NEVER been true about your country. And then saying ‘your country is awful almost beyond redemption and you, newbie, are mad for having anything to do with your country - you must leave it immediately and become a citizen of another country’.

Forget the fact that every single country has its fair share of criminals and reprobates and that changing citizenship doesn’t change my character at all.

Have you ever seen the millions of catholics that make pilgrimages to these apparition sites all over the world?
Don’t say the apparition issue is not a catholic issue when tens of millions of catholics flock to these sites with incredible devotion. Some walk on their bare knees all bloody as they approach the apparition. I think it is a serious issue.

 

[Eden]

If you are not enjoying the discussion of your faith then why do you keep posting? Why do you read what I write?
I enjoy this. That is why I am here. It forces me to bolster my position and argue my case. Why don’t you go to another thread and talk about something else?
I am not trying to win you over. You are set where you are.
I street witness to hundreds of people every week. They range from catholics to drug addicts to atheists to mormons. And many of them are drunk!
I need to have verses at my fingertips.
That is what I am practicing on this forum.
I think everyone should be able to defend what they believe in.
Tell you the truth I get a kick out of taking five people on at the same time. All the more pressure to be concise and accurate. As you know I need a ton of practice.

I didn’t say I don’t enjoy defending the faith on this forum. I was merely pointing out that it is you who came here to tell me that I and the other Catholics here should believe otherwise. This was in response to your conclusion that I could believe what I will. I was pointing out the humorous fact that it took you 10 pages to finally conclude that I and the Catholics here can believe what we will.

 

[newbie1234]

Why are you lumping all apparitions together? Someone can say they see Mary in an oil slick or a grilled cheese sandwich. These are not apparitions approved by the Church. Because someone says they see the Blessed Virgin in a sandwich, that means the Blessed Virgin has never appeared in an apparition? I don’t see how the that follows. This is why it is necessary to use decernment for each individual apparition, which the Church does.

I don’t know if we are allowed to discuss unapproved apparitions. I think it’s in the rules. It’s possible that some unapproved apparitions are actually the invention of people who want to call attention to their region, make money. I’m not going to go more into this.

Look at something like Fatima. The Blessed Virgin gave us a prayer: “Oh my Jesus, Save us from the Fires of Hell, Lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy. Amen.” How can you believe this is demonic?

And the apparitions at Zeitoun are incredible. They were witnessed by millions and some images were captured on film.

http://www.zeitun-eg.org/zeitun.jpg
zeitun-eg.org/stmaridx.htm

You may not believe in the Apparition at Zeitoun, but even the Egyptian government’s investigation concluded that the Blessed Virgin was appearing above the church named after her in Zeitoun.

From the Papal Delegation:

This apparition has been accompanied by two important matters:

1. The first is the strong belief in God, the other world and the saints, thus having many of the unbelievers and those of weak belief repent and be regenerated through their new true belief.
2. The second is the miraculous cure that has occured to many patients whose cases have been examined by all concerned, medically and scientifically.

I don’t understand why you discount all apparitions because some are suspect. You wouldn’t discount a genuine miracle from God because faith-healers have faked miraculous healings would you? Likewise, you should not discount an approved apparition simply because some claims of apparitions are spurious.

The problem is there are miraculous things going on at the non church approved sites also. Rosaries changing from silver to gold people getting healed at the unapproved sites!

 

[Eden]

Have you ever seen the millions of catholics that make pilgrimages to these apparition sites all over the world?
Don’t say the apparition issue is not a catholic issue when tens of millions of catholics flock to these sites with incredible devotion. Some walk on their bare knees all bloody as they approach the apparition. I think it is a serious issue.

I have a family member who was healed after having holy water from Lourdes poured on their bandages on an eye that doctor’s said had such a serious injulry that they would be blind in that eye. This relative has 20/20 vision in that eye 50 years later. It was a miraculous healing that the doctors said they could not explain.

I’ve also witnessed the healing power of God working through a relic of St. Elizabeth Seton which a family member has.

By the way, are you offended by blood and suffering? You seem offended by these things in your statement above.

 

[Eden]

Before you tell me that God working His healing through material objects is not Biblical, look at these passages:

Relics

Mark 15:43; John 19:38 - Joseph of Arimathea sought Christ’s dead body instead of leaving it with the Romans. Joseph gave veneration to our Lord’s body.

Mark 16:1; Luke 24:1 - the women came to further anoint Christ’s body even though it had been sealed in the tomb.

John 19:39 - Nicodemus donated over one hundred pounds of spices to wrap in Jesus’ grave clothes. This is also veneration of our Lord’s body.

Matt. 9:21; Mark 5:28 - the woman with the hemorrhage just sought the hem of Christ’s cloak and was cured. This shows that God uses physical things to effect the supernatural.

Acts 19:11-12 - Paul’s handkerchiefs healed the sick and those with unclean spirits. This is another example of physical things effecting physical and spiritual cures.

Acts 5:15 - Peter’s shadow healed the sick. This proves that relics of the saints have supernatural healing power, and this belief has been a part of Catholic tradition for 2,000 years.

Rev. 6:9 - the souls of the martyrs are seen beneath the heavenly altar. Their bones are often placed beneath altars in Catholic churches around the world.

2 Kings 13:21 - Elisha’s bones bring a man back to life. The saints’ bones are often kept beneath the altars of Catholic churches and have brought about supernatural cures throughout the Christian age.

Rom. 13:7; Phil. 2:25-29; Heb. 3:3; 1 Pet. 2:7 – we are taught to honor the people of God and in 1 Cor. 4:16-17; 1 Cor. 11:1-2; Phil. 3:17; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:7; Heb. 6:12; Heb. 13:7; James 5:10-11 – we are reminded to imitate them.

Keeping relics of the saints serves both to honor and imitate their heroic faith in Christ (just as keeping articles of deceased loved ones helps us honor and imitate them).

 

[Eden]

Holy Water

Ex. 29:4; Lev. 8:6 - Aaron and his sons were washed in holy water in their consecration to the priesthood. Thus, we see the use of holy water during the beginning of salvation history.

Ex. 30:18-19 - the Lord requires Aaron and his sons to wash their hands and feet in holy water before they offered sacrifices to Him. The Church uses holy water for various purposes, and holy water fonts are generally located at the entrance of Catholic churches to be used before the sacrifice of Christ is offered to the Father.

Num. 5:17 - here again, the priest uses holy water. God uses natural matter to convey the supernatural, just as God who is Spirit became flesh in Christ Jesus.

Num. 8:7 - the Lord says to “sprinkle them with the water of remission.” The Lord uses water, a physical property, to convey His supernatural property of grace.

1 Kings 7:38-39 - in King Solomon’s temple, there were ten large basins of holy water. Holy water has always been used in the context of worship.

John 9:6-7 – Jesus uses clay and spittle to heal the blind man’s eyes, and ordered him to wash in the pool of Siloam to effect the cure. Jesus did not need to use spittle, clay and water, but He does to demonstrate that God uses the material things He created to give graces and heal us.

John 13:4-10 - the Lord uses water to wash the apostles’ feet to prepare them for their sacramental priesthood.

John 19:34 - water and blood flowed from Jesus’ pierced side on the Cross. The Church uses holy water as a symbol of our Lord’s life giving water that flowed from His sacred Heart, and as the property which brings about the power of Jesus Christ Himself, in baptism, the Eucharist, and other sacred rites of the Church.

 

[newbie1234]

That egypt pic is incredible. I don’t think it is a hoax. but there are apparitions like that all over the place. I don’t think any of them are hoaxes(Well maybe a few are). If you look at medjugorge, which is not approved, what is going on there?. There have been thousands of miracles there.If the church doesn’t approve them and say it’s from God then what is causing it. Another problem is that no one apparition contradicts another one and the all ask for prayer in one form or another. That’s why I lump them all together. They are all very similar.

 

[newbie1234]

I have family members who was healed after having holy water from Lourdes poured on their bandages on an eye that doctor’s said had such a serious injulry that they would be blind in that eye. This relative has 20/20 vision in that eye 50 years later. It was a miraculous healing that the doctors said they could not explain.

I’ve also witnessed the healing power of God working through a relic of St. Elizabeth Seton which a family member has.

By the way, are you offended by blood and suffering? You seem offended by these things in your statement above.

I am not offended by blood and suffering if it is for a good cause

 

[Eden]

The problem is there are miraculous things going on at the non church approved sites also. Rosaries changing from silver to gold people getting healed at the unapproved sites!

Your only comment after I asked if the prayer the Blessed Virgin asked us to recite was demonic is that non-approved sites have recorded miracles? Don’t you think you skipped an important question?

And how about the huge photograph of the apparition at Zeitoun? That’s kind of hard to miss, isn’t it? You may want to claim it’s a fake, but the apparitions continued for over a year. The Egyptian government concluded it was the Virgin Mary appearing over the church named after her in Zeitoun. Does a demon bow down before the cross or cause the following in witnesses:

1. The first is the strong belief in God, the other world and the saints, thus having many of the unbelievers and those of weak belief repent and be regenerated through their new true belief.

You continue to avoid these questions. Please answer them.

EDIT: O.K. You responded while I was typing this. But how can you say the apparition at Fatima was satan when you see the prayer she asked us to recite?

 

[LilyM]

Have you ever seen the millions of catholics that make pilgrimages to these apparition sites all over the world?
Don’t say the apparition issue is not a catholic issue when tens of millions of catholics flock to these sites with incredible devotion. Some walk on their bare knees all bloody as they approach the apparition. I think it is a serious issue.

You do know that there are over a billion Catholics in this world of ours, yes? As a simple proportion we’re talking a tiny percentage (one percent or less) who would be involved in the behaviours you’re condemning. Add to this the fact that some are called ‘apparition chasers’ - they will be the individuals who make frequent pilgrimages and to numerous Marian sites - and you can cut the proportion to a third of one percent. In other words about the normal percentage of any church who indulge in kooky behaviour.

Add to that the fact that the Church DOES go to extraordinary lengths in their examination and approval (more often disapproval) process for apparitions. Fatima was investigated non-stop for thirteen years before any sort of official recognition was given - every single one of the tens of thousands of people who were there at the Miracle of the Sun were exhaustively interviewed.

If you look at Medjugorje, as one example of an unapproved (and very much disapproved) apparition, the local Bishop, acting on behalf of the Church, has quite literally done all within his power to discourage people from visiting - made numerous investigations which have been more and more clearly disapproving of the visions, banned Church groups from organising pilgrimages to the site, ordered the seers to stop publicising the supposed messages from Mary.

The next step in all seriousness would probably be to physically restrain either the seers or the pilgrims from going to the site. And even that wouldn’t stop them - I know of one seer who goes on tour to other countries and claims that the Virgin can appear to him any time any place and at his whim!!! :bigyikes:

What more do you want the Bishop to do though? What more CAN he do? He doesn’t have his own police or security force, neither does the Pope, and the local secular officials are extremely happy to have a thriving tourist trade and wouldn’t do anything against those who choose to visit.

If we Catholics were bound on pain of sin from believing in or individually visiting such sites, you anti-Catholics would have a field day about how the Church is interfering with people’s rights and making up rules as they go along. It’s a no-win situation, seriously.

And the church in all seriousness does all it can to discourage those who flock after unapproved apparitions. Without bringing back the worst excesses of the Inquisition it simply doesn’t have the sort of control over the minds and actions of all its followers that would be required.

 

[newbie1234]

Your only comment after I asked if the prayer the Blessed Virgin asked us to recite was demonic is that non-approved sites have recorded miracles? Don’t you think you skipped an important question?

And how about the huge photograph of the apparition at Zeitoun? That’s kind of hard to miss, isn’t it? You may want to claim it’s a fake, but the apparitions continued for over a year. The Egyptian government concluded it was the Virgin Mary appearing over the church named after her in Zeitoun. Does a demon bow down before the cross or cause the following in witnesses:

1. The first is the strong belief in God, the other world and the saints, thus having many of the unbelievers and those of weak belief repent and be regenerated through their new true belief.

You continue to avoid these questions. Please answer them.

EDIT: O.K. You responded while I was typing this. But how can you say the apparition at Fatima was satan when you see the prayer she asked us to recite?

Satan is the great deceiver and you know that.
The message from Fatima Does honor god that is obvious. The deceptive part is that all apparitions ask for prayer. Then many of them ask for other things like shrines. One of the apparitions wanted to be co redemptrix. They messages appearing to be God honoring but some are deceptive. Again you have to see the dvd inits entiety, not 5 minutes on you
tube to see what I’m talking about.

 

[Eden]

Satan is the great deceiver and you know that.
The message from Fatima Does honor god that is obvious. The deceptive part is that all apparitions ask for prayer. Then many of them ask for other things like shrines. One of the apparitions wanted to be co redemptrix. They messages appearing to be God honoring but some are deceptive. Again you have to see the dvd inits entiety, not 5 minutes on you
tube to see what I’m talking about.

You move from accepting that the Prayer at Fatima honors God, to quickly jumping to other apparitions and the co-redemptrix issue. Let’s just focus on Fatima for a minute. If the message at Fatima honors God and brought people closer to Him, how can you believe the activities there were demonic?

 

[newbie1234]

You do know that there are over a billion Catholics in this world of ours, yes? As a simple proportion we’re talking a tiny percentage (one percent or less) who would be involved in the behaviours you’re condemning. Add to this the fact that some are called ‘apparition chasers’ - they will be the individuals who make frequent pilgrimages and to numerous Marian sites - and you can cut the proportion to a third of one percent. In other words about the normal percentage of any church who indulge in kooky behaviour.

Add to that the fact that the Church DOES go to extraordinary lengths in their examination and approval (more often disapproval) process for apparitions. Fatima was investigated non-stop for thirteen years before any sort of official recognition was given - every single one of the tens of thousands of people who were there at the Miracle of the Sun were exhaustively interviewed.

If you look at Medjugorje, as one example of an unapproved (and very much disapproved) apparition, the local Bishop, acting on behalf of the Church, has quite literally done all within his power to discourage people from visiting - made numerous investigations which have been more and more clearly disapproving of the visions, banned Church groups from organising pilgrimages to the site, ordered the seers to stop publicising the supposed messages from Mary.

The next step in all seriousness would probably be to physically restrain either the seers or the pilgrims from going to the site. And even that wouldn’t stop them - I know of one seer who goes on tour to other countries and claims that the Virgin can appear to him any time any place and at his whim!!! :bigyikes:

What more do you want the Bishop to do though? What more CAN he do? He doesn’t have his own police or security force, neither does the Pope, and the local secular officials are extremely happy to have a thriving tourist trade and wouldn’t do anything against those who choose to visit.

If we Catholics were bound on pain of sin from believing in or individually visiting such sites, you anti-Catholics would have a field day about how the Church is interfering with people’s rights and making up rules as they go along. It’s a no-win situation, seriously.

And the church in all seriousness does all it can to discourage those who flock after unapproved apparitions. Without bringing back the worst excesses of the Inquisition it simply doesn’t have the sort of control over the minds and actions of all its followers that would be required.

Good point but you know that pope john paul was the marion pope and he visited many apparition sites. I know he went to knock Ireland and others. So its no longer just a lunatic fringe group with this mary issue.

 

[newbie1234]

You move from accepting that the Prayer at Fatima honors God, to quickly jumping to other apparitions and the co-redemptrix issue. Let’s just focus on Fatima for a minute. If the message at Fatima honors God and brought people closer to Him, how can you believe the activities there were demonic?

Satan is a great deceiver.

 

[LilyM]

Satan is the great deceiver and you know that.
The message from Fatima Does honor god that is obvious. The deceptive part is that all apparitions ask for prayer. Then many of them ask for other things like shrines. One of the apparitions wanted to be co redemptrix. They messages appearing to be God honoring but some are deceptive. Again you have to see the dvd inits entiety, not 5 minutes on you
tube to see what I’m talking about.

What ON EARTH is wrong with asking for prayer? Aren’t we all supposed to be praying??? And how on earth would Satan ever be made happy by encouraging more people to pray to God??? (yes, through Mary but always always always TO God)

How many of the approved apparitions have asked for shrines? I only know of one, which was the Virgin of Guadalupe - and she said WHY she wanted it, which was so that MASS (prayer to God, nothing for herself) could be said there! Mass is the principal prayer said at all of the official Marian shrines, you do realise this???

 

[Eden]

Satan is a great deceiver.

While you believe satan was deceiving the witnesses at Fatima and other apparition sites, I believe he has deceived you and the millions of followers of Christ who have left the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church founded by Christ for denominations invented by men.