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Gamera
Guest
I never heard of anybody chanting a rosary.
SPLIT: Here is what we Christians have a problem with, concerning Catholic doctrines:
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HJProtestant
Guest
Hi all- just got through reading this thread from the beginning and although I do agree with SKelly, you will find I am not here to argue, but to discuss this topic in a constructive manner.
OK, about vain repetition. SKelly has already quoted many Biblical references so allow me to bring to the table my observations and experience with repetitious prayer.
I believe, as with many many other ritualistic practices, that the Rosary and Our Father were started with pure intentions. Unfortunately, IN MY EXPERIENCE most Catholics repeat this stuff so many times in their life that the words no longer have meaning…and then it just becomes mouth movement. This is similar to other things we are made to repeat in life…take for example, the Pledge of Allegiance. Although we only said it once through at my school each day, we were forced to say it every morning and it wasn’t until many years later that I actually realized what I was saying so was I really pledging my allegiance? I do believe that there are SOME Catholics that are actually praying these prayers from the heart. I do believe in meditation as long as THE BRAIN and THE HEART are actually engaged in what THE MOUTH is repeating.
Having said that, I don’t think you can deny that many, many Catholics do not have this engagement. I married into a Catholic family and I find it bothersome that prayers that are so revered are used in a non-sincere and sometimes mocking manner. This is why these prayers are seen as vain. Certainly not all Catholics pray them in vain (just as many Protestants pray sometimes to impress people instead of truly talking to God-also vain). I have watched EWTN quite a few times to educate myself and find it strange that the head nun (sorry–not sure what she’s called) has to READ these prayers when she must have said them a million times in her life! Also, MOST of other nuns repeating “Hail Mary” look completely bored out of their minds–not meditative. It seems strange that the church would require something that is indeed used in vain by so many. Be honest, have ever been praying one of these prayers and in your mind you were thinking of what you were going to cook for brunch after Mass, or that the person in front of you has something on their pants…or any multitude of thoughts going through your mind while your mouth just kept moving?
Sorry for the length…I’ll try to be briefer next time
OK, about vain repetition. SKelly has already quoted many Biblical references so allow me to bring to the table my observations and experience with repetitious prayer.
I believe, as with many many other ritualistic practices, that the Rosary and Our Father were started with pure intentions. Unfortunately, IN MY EXPERIENCE most Catholics repeat this stuff so many times in their life that the words no longer have meaning…and then it just becomes mouth movement. This is similar to other things we are made to repeat in life…take for example, the Pledge of Allegiance. Although we only said it once through at my school each day, we were forced to say it every morning and it wasn’t until many years later that I actually realized what I was saying so was I really pledging my allegiance? I do believe that there are SOME Catholics that are actually praying these prayers from the heart. I do believe in meditation as long as THE BRAIN and THE HEART are actually engaged in what THE MOUTH is repeating.
Having said that, I don’t think you can deny that many, many Catholics do not have this engagement. I married into a Catholic family and I find it bothersome that prayers that are so revered are used in a non-sincere and sometimes mocking manner. This is why these prayers are seen as vain. Certainly not all Catholics pray them in vain (just as many Protestants pray sometimes to impress people instead of truly talking to God-also vain). I have watched EWTN quite a few times to educate myself and find it strange that the head nun (sorry–not sure what she’s called) has to READ these prayers when she must have said them a million times in her life! Also, MOST of other nuns repeating “Hail Mary” look completely bored out of their minds–not meditative. It seems strange that the church would require something that is indeed used in vain by so many. Be honest, have ever been praying one of these prayers and in your mind you were thinking of what you were going to cook for brunch after Mass, or that the person in front of you has something on their pants…or any multitude of thoughts going through your mind while your mouth just kept moving?
Sorry for the length…I’ll try to be briefer next time
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Church_Militant
Guest
That’s pretty rude lady. Is this your idea of a charitable Christian witness to Catholics?
John 10:10:
3rd John 1:2:
Mark 16:15-18
James 5:14-15:
Philipians 4:19:
Jeremiah 29:11
Proverbs 19:23:
Psalms 91: He shall call upon Me, and I WILL answer him; I WILL be with him in trouble; I WILL deliver him and honor him. With long life I WILL satisfy him, And show him My salvation.”The problem here is that this is a a “Word of Faith” error. Notice that no one, Catholic or n-C will contend that the verses cited mean what they say. However, the conclusion actually being put forward here is what I colored red above.
This error teaches that once one becomes a believer that God is essentially an ATM and we have an endless debit card for a life without difficulty or conflict, something that I have absolutely no doubt that St. Peter would take issue with as he hung upside down on his cross…St. Andrew in similar circumstances…St. John the Evangelist as he was boiled in oil (and miraculously protected) and then banished to Patmos…St. Ignatius of Antioch as he was thrown to wild animals, or St. Polycarp as he was burned, stabbed, and tortured to death…or even modern St. Maximillain Kolbe, as he was beaten and starved by the Nazis in Auschwitz before being injected with carbolic acid.
Does anyone here think that they suffered because they were sinners or that the words of their mouth brought them some sort of persecution because that is what they confessed with their mouth? According to the proponents of this error, that would be the case, because all suffering by believers is the result of them not “cashing in” on all that God has for them. It’s the “name it and claim it” religion. :whacky: :hypno:
Really? Wow! There’s no mystery of why God will continue to love His creatures when they turn their backs on Him or why He would sacrifice His only son for the forgiveness of the sins of the whole world? Yeah… that’s what my Catholic Bible says…
This is complete anti-Catholic bunkum. How many people were literate enough to read “back in the day”? What languages did they read and how did they obtain copies of the Word of God? Did the Jerusalem chapter of the Gideons hand them out on street corners or leave them in rooms in inns? Did the apostles just pop down to the Jerusalem Kinkos and have copies made and then fax or Fed Ex them out all over the world? Or was it all posted on the World Wide Web?
This is such baseless rhetorical propaganda that it’s difficult to believe that any rational person actually would believe it, but hey, you seem to have bought into that Word of Faith error, so why should your message be any more accurate than theirs?
Well that’s what happens when you embrace Sola Scriptura and then embrace errors taught based upon that fundamental error. It’s all about the material blessings huh?
You may not want to but I sincerely suggest that you “Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.” (2nd Timothy 2:15) and examine both the scriptural and historical errors of what you have been taught and begin to seriously question whoever taught you all this.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
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guanophore
Guest
Yes, but who are we to judge who is, and who is not praying with the heart? Should that not be left up to God?
Don’t be fooled by appearances! Mother Angelica had a series of small strokes (and one large one) that resulted in some loss of verbal processing and function. I am not sure if that is why she is reading or not,but if you do keep watching EWTN, or you listen to her talks, I think you will find that her whole heart and mind belong to Jesus, along with that sassy Italian mouth of hers!
God bless Mother Angelica and EWTN.
This is a common protestant misconception. The Rosary is a common devotional of Catholics, but it is not required.
Of course, but in such cases, it does not matter if I am reciting scripture, or using some other form of prayer. The human mind has a tendency to wander during prayer, and that is a fact. Don’t blame it on the prayer! Don’t blame it on the sermon either, because a lot of good sermons happen while minds are wandering.Be honest, have ever been praying one of these prayers and in your mind you were thinking of what you were going to cook for brunch after Mass, or that the person in front of you has something on their pants…or any multitude of thoughts going through your mind while your mouth just kept moving?
Sorry for the length…I’ll try to be briefer next time
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Church_Militant
Guest
repeat this stuff so many times in their life that the words no longer have meaning…and then it just becomes mouth movement. This is similar to other things we are made to repeat in life…take for example, the Pledge of Allegiance. Although we only said it once through at my school each day, we were forced to say it every morning and it wasn’t until many years later that I actually realized what I was saying so was I really pledging my allegiance? I do believe that there are SOME Catholics that are actually praying these prayers from the heart. I do believe in meditation as long as THE BRAIN and THE HEART are actually engaged in what THE MOUTH is repeating. The problem here is that your experience is a poor measuring stick since it forces you to make a generalization that is invalid. To challenge the Rosary of other Catholic devotions on this basis fails to consider the possibility that you are wrong because you actually do not know “most Catholics” and therefore this is a presumption not really in factual evidence, right?
This would be the same as if I said that “IN MY EXPERIENCE most” n-Cs are anti-Catholic. It’s simply not true.
Actually I can deny it…or at least question it, since neither of us can prove this statement.
Again, this is your experience, and cannot be properly used to indict the Rosary, just as your example below…
You presume again. The nun is probably Mother Angelica and you cannot know what she is reading. It’s could be anything, but is likely a scriptural Rosary.
Again, you presume that the people you see are bored… that’s just your perception. I watch it too and see meditation.
, have ever been praying one of these prayers and in your mind you were thinking of what you were going to cook for brunch after Mass, or that the person in front of you has something on their pants…or any multitude of thoughts going through your mind while your mouth just kept moving?Yep sure have… only most times it is some insight into the life of Our Lord or a memory (prompted by the Holy Spirit no doubt) of someone or something that I need to include in my prayers. If I am distracted by personal cares then generally that is what the Holy Spirit wants me to bring to my prayers, and so I obediently do so right then.
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Milliardo
Guest
Where did Jesus state that it is chanting? And if, for the sake of argument, it is chanting, then wouldn’t it be reasonable to condemn then Psalm 136 since it is repetitious?
By this logic, even Protestant songs should not have refrains or choruses in them, since it will only be repeating the same words…
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E.E.N.S
Guest
Let us not forget that Jesus himself prayed repetitiously, (Mark 14:39).
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edwest2
Guest
Before we get into more dueling scriptures, and “I’ve got more information than you,” I suggest our Protestant brothers and sisters pick up a Catholic Catechism or read it online.
The Catholic Church recognizes appearances of Mary and miracles attributed to saints. These things are not just accepted at face value but studied carefully and based on witness testimony, including examining doctors and other professionals. Many are praying that Pope John Paull II will be elevated to sainthood. The Church recognizes a “communion of saints.” Even though most saints are dead, just like the original Apostles, they are still our spiritual brothers and sisters. And just as the disciples called on God and the name of Jesus Christ to heal, so can the saints pray for you. Just as I can ask a Christian friend of mine who I know and is alive, so can the saints in Heaven pray for me.
As Catholics, we do not worship the Pope, or Mary, but we do rightly call her the Mother of God since GOD Himself chose her for this purpose.
When Catholics pray, we are praying to the person of Christ, the Father and the Holy Spirit. We are talking to them as we would talk to someone we love.
The Rosary was given to the Church. And praying it is one of our more effective spiritual weapons. Pope John Paull II urged all Catholics to pray it.
May I suggest that we all start from the greeting Christ used: “Peace be with you.”
God bless,
Ed
The Catholic Church recognizes appearances of Mary and miracles attributed to saints. These things are not just accepted at face value but studied carefully and based on witness testimony, including examining doctors and other professionals. Many are praying that Pope John Paull II will be elevated to sainthood. The Church recognizes a “communion of saints.” Even though most saints are dead, just like the original Apostles, they are still our spiritual brothers and sisters. And just as the disciples called on God and the name of Jesus Christ to heal, so can the saints pray for you. Just as I can ask a Christian friend of mine who I know and is alive, so can the saints in Heaven pray for me.
As Catholics, we do not worship the Pope, or Mary, but we do rightly call her the Mother of God since GOD Himself chose her for this purpose.
When Catholics pray, we are praying to the person of Christ, the Father and the Holy Spirit. We are talking to them as we would talk to someone we love.
The Rosary was given to the Church. And praying it is one of our more effective spiritual weapons. Pope John Paull II urged all Catholics to pray it.
May I suggest that we all start from the greeting Christ used: “Peace be with you.”
God bless,
Ed
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HJProtestant
Guest
OK, so a few of you have readily admitted to “mind wandering” while repeating prayers…let me just tell you, this has NEVER happened to me while I speak to God. I am thoroughly intent on saying what my heart feels in adoration, confession, thanksgiving and petition of God. I revere them to be some of the most important words that come out of my mouth and I dare not use them in vain.
Also, it is through this type of prayer that the Holy Spirit has spoken through me. What an amazing experience this is! Is this type of blessed experience possible when one’s mouth is on auto pilot? This is not a rhetorical question…I would really like to know if you believe this.
Also, it is through this type of prayer that the Holy Spirit has spoken through me. What an amazing experience this is! Is this type of blessed experience possible when one’s mouth is on auto pilot? This is not a rhetorical question…I would really like to know if you believe this.
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East_and_West
Guest
Until you Charismatic sort out your Pagan-like, self centered, disordered, “worship” services, you have not business criticizing any other Church.
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guanophore
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Yes, when I am praying in tongues, I have never had this wandering experience either.
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guanophore
Guest
I think this is quite uncharitable, and also offensive to those of us who are Charismatic Catholics.
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mikijam
Guest
Wow, HJP, what a blessing for you (I’m being sincere). Even Peter was distracted when he talked to God (remember the whole “get thee behind me” episode?), and when Peter talked to God, he was talking TO GOD!
Despite being Catholic all my life, I am new to the rosary. I love that I can meditate on various aspects of Christ’s life through prayer, and even though they are Scriptures I’ve heard a thousand times before (oops, repetitive), I still find new meaning in them. Sometimes I actively concentrate so as not to wander, but an important part of prayer is LISTENING to God (not just speaking). I find that as I recite the prayers, my thoughts sometimes are guided to just the inspiration I was looking for.
We seem to agree that it isn’t forbidden to repeat prayers, and there are already quoted examples in this thread of examples of repetition. The admonition is to not let it become vain, and no Catholic would disagree there. If your friends and/or relatives appear bored while praying the rosary, a Christian response might be to inquire into their mental state, and ask if the prayer is effective for them. If not, they might just adjust their thinking and become closer to God, or they might find it’s time to put the rosary down and seek another form of prayer (quite permissible). You also might find that your presumptions of boredom are inaccurate, and that too would expand your understanding of how Christ works in other peoples’ lives. Seems like a Win/Win.
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japhy
Guest
The New Testament makes it clear that Jesus gave suffering and hardship a redemptive character. Jesus says that we are blessed when we are persecuted for his sake! Paul writes about suffering a lot in his letters:
“… if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.” (Rom 8:17-18)
“For as we share abundantly in Christ’s sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too.” (2 Cor 1:5)
“For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake…” (Phil 1:29)
“… that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.” (Phil 3:10-11)
“Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church…” (Col 1:24)
“Therefore we ourselves boast of you in the churches of God for your steadfastness and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions which you are enduring. This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be made worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering…” (1 Thess 4-5)
Yes, God delivers us from these hardships (just as He delivered Paul from the shipwreck (cf. Acts 27)), but not always like we want. Remember Paul’s words in 2 Cor 12:7-10: “And to keep me from being too elated by the abundance of revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, to harass me, to keep me from being too elated. Three times I besought the Lord about this, that it should leave me; but he said to me, ‘My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.’ I will all the more gladly boast of my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities; for when I am weak, then I am strong.”
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terri_fortner
Guest
I’m not sure about you, but when I was in school they taught us when taking a test and you see an answer with the word never or always that one is going to be the wrong one. I find it impossable to believe that your mind has “NEVER” wondered durring a prayer. Since we were told to live a life of ceaseless prayer. But I suppose if you think about it whatever you think about when you are praying is what you are praying for. So if I am praying for God’s grace or guidance, and I suddely think of Lunch then maybe I need to be concious of what hapens at lunchtime. Or maybe I am just not as perfect as you are, but then again neither is any other human being to walk this earth. Just my thoughts…
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bankerdavid
Guest
If the brain and the heart are not engaged, it’s simply not meditation. You will find that those who pray the rosary sincerely are just that-sincere. They pray the rosary to reflect on our Lord’s Joyful, Sorrowful, Glorious, Luminous life, as expressed in the Gospel. Keep in mind the the one of the original intents of the rosary was to teach the key points of the Gospel to those who could not read and to have the Gospel available at a time when there weren’t too many printing presses (none for a long time).
How do you base your statement that many, many Catholics do not have this engagement based on ONE FAMILY???
Mother Angelica, at the time of the taping of the rosary you see on EWTN, had had several strokes. If you were sensitive, you could see that there was something wrong with her face, and I don’t believe she even held a rosary in her hand. Her assistant was (probably) guiding her through the rosary, keeping count of the beads.
Honestly, the question you’re asking is “Has any of us failed in an attempt to connect with our Lord?” Just to let you know, yes, this has happened to me. But because we’ve failed in the attempt does that make us less likely to try? Do you honestly think your pastor, hard as he may try, every Sunday has the best interest of his congregation in mind? He may have had an argument with his wife or child just prior to leading your service. Do you think that, if that were the case, he should just not show up?Sorry for the length…I’ll try to be briefer next time
My daily rosary and daily mass is an appointment for me to spend time with God, to start my day with Him as my focus.
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terri_fortner
Guest
I am not sure who you are insulting, but I know you are trying ot insult someone. Maybe it is the peron who posted the thread you replied to, maybe it is a group of people, but this really bothers me…
Jesus said the two greatest commandments, the ones that everything else hinges on, are to Love God with all your heart soul, and being, and to love your neighbor as you love yourself. CS Lewis put it better than anyone else I ever heard but He really makes you thin about How do you love yourself? Is it because you are always right, or you know everything, or because you are a nice person. Or is it because despite all the bad things you have done (and we have all done something that wea re not proud of) you know that there is more to you then that. If that is the case then shouldn’t we trust there is more to the other person than their misguided attempts at understanding, or their misinformed, or their misunderstandings, or their difference?
And that God is working inside them too, and He wants you to reflect His light, as the moon reflects the light of the son.
Just a thought…
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bankerdavid
Guest
Question is, really, do you honestly believe your mind has never wandered when praying??? Mind wanders to my troubles, and my prayers send my troubles to God for assistance. In fact, in vocal prayer, I have never heard someone not wandering all over the map. For example, you’re praying over your dinner, thank God for his bounty, and God, please help my son pass his algebra exam. Thing is, I don’t see anything wrong with that, but it IS wandering…
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mercygate
Guest
Welcome to the forums HJ.
Catholics have a very rich prayer tradition, which includes many forms of prayer – such as those you have described.
We use the meditations of the Rosary to ‘pray the gospel’, since each decade of the rosary is dedicated to a mystery in the life of our Lord.
We also spend prayer time listening to God – not just talking to him. We also sometimes pray through a method known as *Lectio divina, *a four-fold discipline of reading scripture passage, thoughtfully meditating on it, praying as the Holy Spirit guides us, and reposing in integrative. silent, contemplation.
The rosary – and its Eastern variation, the Jesus prayer – can be a middle way between vocal prayer and infused contemplation.
While people may find the rosary mind-numbing, I personally find that when I am very tired, too tired for strenuous mental prayer with its high intellectual content, gentle recitation of the rosary affords an opportunity for a restful kind of prayer in which I can bring my weariness to the Lord in the company of his Mother. Often when I pray the words “Holy Mary . . . pray for us” I *mean: *Pray FOR me, that is – please do this for me: “Mary, join my imperfect prayer to the perfect prayer of your immaculate heart and place it before the Father’s throne.”
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mercygate
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I believe the post to which you are responding mentioned that the nuns look bored. That taping – of a 20-minute prayer form – took more than 3 hours because of Mother’s disability. They probably WERE bored, and tired. It was hardly a typical recitation of the rosary.
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