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bnapgh
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John 14Is the living Tradition of the church different than the scriptures? If so how?
16 And I will ask the Father: and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever 17 The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him. But you shall know him; because he shall abide with you and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans
J
justasking4
Guest
BHTech;3600524]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Who is the “one” shepherd that Jesus identifies in john 10:16? I don’t see Him pointing out Peter in this chapter as that shepherd.
How so? Where does Jesus identify this “ONE Flock bit”? What exactly is it?BHTech
One Shepherd - Jesus in the overall sense. The point is that you miss the ONE Flock bit.
Not so. I’m trying to understand what they mean just as you are. Can you tell specifically what they mean i.e. where your church has interpreted this verse (John 10:16)?Nice try but you are denying Jesus words.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Secondly, there was not a supreme i.e. one leader for the entire church for centuries after the apostles.
Not changing it at all but this must be part of this discussion. The catholic church claims to have this “shepherd” i.e. pope in which all of chriistianity to be unitied under.BHTech
Friend please don’t try to change the subject or deflect the specific question.
We need to since he supposely the first shepherd of the church.Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Thirdly, where in Peter’s letters do we see him identifying himself as this “one” shepherd that Jesus mentions?
BHTech
Nice try again, but you have failed to get to the bottom of the question and the answer. I am not involving Peter in this discussion.
What makes you think they have not? They would all claim that Christ is alone is the supreme Shepherd over the entire church.Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
We have differences of understanding that i pointed out earlier. Its part of the human fallen condition. Its true also in the catholic church also. There is a wide range of interpretation of the scriptures in the catholic church. Are you aware that the catholic church has infallibly interpreted less than 20 verses of the Scriptures ?
BHTech
Again nice try and attempting to change the subject. Again I ask in light of the fact that Jesus calls for us to be one flock, why would the Southern Baptists and the pastors of denominations X, Y, and Z ignore that call?
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bnapgh
Guest
Matthew 26Where do the apostles teach that the bread and wine becomes God?
Mark 14Take ye and eat. This is my body. 27 And taking the chalice, he gave thanks and gave to them, saying: Drink ye all of this. 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins.
Luke 2222 And whilst they were eating, Jesus took bread; and blessing, broke and gave to them and said: Take ye. This is my body. 23 And having taken the chalice, giving thanks, he gave it to them. And they all drank of it. 24 And he said to them: This is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many.
But then it depends of your definition of the word ‘‘is’’, right, Mr. Clinton?19 And taking bread, he gave thanks and brake and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me. 20 In like manner, the chalice also, after he had supped, saying: This is the chalice, the new testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you.
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justasking4
Guest
mercygate;3599822]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Do you realize this same kind of thing goes on in the catholic church? Catholics believe different things among themselves just as protestants do.
Take the Sedevacantist in the catholic church who don’t believe the current pope is legit and if i’m not mistaken the mass of today is also wrong since its not in Latin. This catholic movement as far
i can tell they reject some or all of Vatican 2.
Has the catholic offically denounced and excomunicated them?mercygate
, , , and they are not in Communion with the Bishop of Rome. They are Protestants from a Catholic culture and in Catholic costume.
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bnapgh
Guest
Why would they need to be united under one name or denomination?
‘I therefore bring forward from the gospel clear proofs, by which I propose, with God’s help, to prove how rightly and truly in the sight of God it has been determined, that in the case of every schismatic and heretic, the wound which caused his separation should be cured by the medicine of the Church; but that what remained sound in him should rather be recognized with approbation, than wounded by condemnation. It is indeed true that the Lord says in the gospel, “He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.” Yet when the disciples had brought word to Him that they had seen one casting out devils in His name, and had forbidden him, because he followed not them, He said, “Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us. For there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.” If, indeed, there were nothing in this man requiring correction, then any one would be safe who, setting himself outside the communion of the Church, severing himself from all Christian brotherhood, should gather in Christ’s name; and so there would be no truth in this, “He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.” But if he required correction in the point where the disciples in their ignorance were anxious to check him, why did our Lord, by saying, “Forbid him not,” prevent this check from being given? And how can that be true which He then says, “He that is not against you is for you?” For in this point he was not against, but for them, when he was working miracles of healing in Christ’s name. That both, therefore, should be true, as both are true,–both the declaration, that “he that is not with me is against me, and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad;” and also the injunction, “Forbid him not; for he that is not against you is for you,”–what must we understand, except that the man was to be confirmed in his veneration for that mighty Name, in respect of which he was not against the Church, but for it; and yet he was to be blamed for separating himself from the Church, whereby his gathering became a scattering; and if it should have so happened that he sought union with the Church, he should not have received what he already possessed, but be made to set right the points wherein he had gone astray’ (St. Augustine On Baptism, Against the Donatists, Bk. 1, Ch. 7)
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justasking4
Guest
Who is the “you” in this passage? To “whom” is Jesus speaking to?John 14
16 And I will ask the Father: and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever 17 The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him. But you shall know him; because he shall abide with you and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans
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mercygate
Guest
I am not up on the canonical details. The act of going into schism invokes self-excommunication, known as excommunication latae sententiae. Some have been officially excommunicated. Certainly, individuals who have “ordained” women have placed themselves under *latae sententiae *excommunication AND have also had excommunications made official.Has the catholic offically denounced and excomunicated them?
At least one prominent “more Catholic than the Pope” group that has played it closer to the edge is in active dialogue with the Holy See in an attempt at reconciliation.
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mercygate
Guest
You can tell us yourself. In my Bible, it is only to the Eleven.Who is the “you” in this passage? To “whom” is Jesus speaking to?
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justasking4
Guest
grandfather;3600489]“As far as I can tell”.
The Baptists got this and that right.
The Catohlics got this and that right.
As far as I can tell. I am the arbiter of truth. I use the Bible as do the Baptists and Catholics and Jehovahs Witnesses, to determine this and that truth. All authority is in the Bible, meaning there can be none left to be in the Church God founded on men.
Do you believe and know everything the catholic church teaches?I pick and choose what I want to believe. This is the Protestant methodology. They can all disagree on any number of things between themselves, and do, but the methodology is the individual for himself determining truth on a doctrine by doctrine basis, as far as I can tell.
Do you understand everything they teach?
For example, is Mary the medatrix of all graces? Or is there salvation outside the catholic church? I have seen both position in the catholic church on these issues. Which one is the correct one?
Not necessarily so. We should never just accept what a church teaches without first examining it as I Thessolians 5:21 exhorts us to.I pick and choose for myself. This is the classical definition of a heretic, one who picks and chooses for himself what he wants to believe.
This demonstrates a number of things. One is that if the church is truly guided by the HS it can err or its not always guided by the HS which can also result in error.Catholics and their popes have many sins. The pope and churchmen made many policy errors in history and caused scandals. That does not effect their dogma, the truths of the faith, that can never change.
Is it a “truth of faith” that eating meat on Fridays during Lent is a sin?
Look at the Marian dogmas. These doctrines have changed over time. The principle that Cardinal Neuman laid-- something called -"Discipline can change. We can worship using this prayer and then use a different one. We can fast during Lent this way and then another way. Dogma, truths related to faith and morals can not change, ever.
Development of Christian Doctrine" if true would mean doctrines do change over time in that a great understanding would result in changes. This is what we see happening in the latest move to have Mary proclaimed to be “the Spiritual Mother of All Humanity”. This would be a fundamental change in doctrine.
I agree protestants can and have erred at times. By not being infallible makes these corrections possible. It is not possible to correct errors as easily when the authority is supposed to be infallible and being infallible would mean you cannot err even if you have the evidence of error.Protestants by their founding principles can and do change what they believe whenever they think someinth needs fixing. It does not bother them. They admit error, the Church can err in matters of dogma, so fix it, big deal.
Here is an example from Trent. Trent called protestants heretics and condemned them. That has never been offically changed. It can’t since as far as i understand this was a kind of infallible council.
Do you think the theologians of today have a greater understanding than those of a thousand years ago who had limited access to the scriptures?Take this to its logical conclusion. Despite Jesus promises to lead His Church into “ALL” truth for all time, those who came before us were wrong about XY and Z. We realize that now, we know better, thanks to our ability to read the Bible better than our predecessors, and have corrected them as we see fit. Those who come after us may disagree with our teaching at any time and refix or fix what we teach. That is how things work. No problem.
Is it not true there has not always been 7 sacraments in the church?What this says is that truth is in flux. We can never know with certainty, what truth is about something as important as how many sacraments there are. Yesterday and for fifteen hundred years the Church said there are seven, but that is wrong and we dumped five. Is Holy Matrimony a sacrament or not? We think we are right today, but might find out something else tomorrow. Some of our doctrines might be false, but we don’t know which ones, meaning we do not know which are true.
At this point in history i don’t see Protestants going away anytime soon and its been over 500 years.God wants us to know His truth with certainty, not partially, but in fulllness,and in every age and promised us we would know it in the Church. He who is truth unites us in His truth and makes us one as Paul instructed us to be of one mind. Those who depart from revealed truths are not part of the Church Christ built on the Rock. They will not withstand the storms. They will eventually fall. They are not in Peter’s boat from which Christ began His teaching and continues to teach.
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justasking4
Guest
I agree.You can tell us yourself. In my Bible, it is only to the Eleven.
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grandfather
Guest
It was Jesus who taught that. The apostles learned it from Him and continued the teaching. You know this and are being obstinate for the sake of being obstinate, arguing for the sake of argument, not furthering reasonable dialogue…Where do the apostles teach that the bread and wine becomes God?
Are you referring to Acts 22:16 in regards to “baptism washes away our sins”?
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BHTech
Guest
John 10:16 And other sheep I have that are not of this fold: them also I must bring. And they shall hear my voice: And there shall be one fold and one shepherd.How so? Where does Jesus identify this “ONE Flock bit”? What exactly is it?
I am not trying to understand what Jesus means. You are trying to deflect the issue from yourself on to us. What do you understand by one flock? The passage is in front of you.Not so. I’m trying to understand what they mean just as you are. Can you tell specifically what they mean i.e. where your church has interpreted this verse (John 10:16)?
Again I ask why don’t’t the Southern Baptist and denominations X, Y, Z follow Jesus words?Not changing it at all but this must be part of this discussion. The catholic church claims to have this “shepherd” i.e. pope in which all of chriistianity to be unitied under.
To the best of my knowledge they are still the Southern Baptist and denominations X, Y, and Z. Separate and distinct from each other. Not one flock. Why aren’t they one flock?What makes you think they have not? They would all claim that Christ is alone is the supreme Shepherd over the entire church.
Brent
Converts Den - members.shaw.ca/bmaundy/home.html
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bnapgh
Guest
It is certain in the text that Jesus is clearly addressing Peter and His Apostles, is it not?Who is the “you” in this passage? To “whom” is Jesus speaking to?
That is the ONLY certainty, is it not?
If anyone were to argue that the ‘‘you’’ was anyone other than the Apostles, he would be putting in his/her own extension, would he not?
If we are certain that the ‘‘you’’ Jesus was addressing is Peter and His Apostles and no other, then the only certain way to feel truly safe in the Holy Paraclete would be under those Apostles, right?
Since Christ’s words say the Paraclete is with the ‘‘you’’ group ‘‘for ever’’ and since we know the Apostles did not live ‘‘for ever’’, then the there must be ‘‘successors’’, right?
And then the single ‘‘Paraclete guided’’ group for which we can be most certain Christ intended those words ‘‘for ever’’ would have to be the Apostles duly apointed successors with whom they shared things unwritten, is it not?
So when there is any difference in Scritpural interpretation between or among groups, our souls can be most safe by relying on that most certain line of succession, right?
Now I am not saying that group will always give the most reasonable Scriptural interpretation, but I am saying that Christ’s ‘‘sheep’’ — whom Peter was charged to ‘‘feed’’ — can only be certain that they are being securely led to Jesus’ home by that ‘one most certain ‘‘you’’ group’, i.e. Peter’s and the Apostles’ successors.
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grandfather
Guest
They are excommunicated. They have excommunicated themselves by their acts. The Church only lets them know they are separated.Has the catholic offically denounced and excomunicated them?
J
justasking4
Guest
grandfather;3601251]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Where do the apostles teach that the bread and wine becomes God?
Are you referring to Acts 22:16 in regards to “baptism washes away our sins”?
Lets look at the bread and wine and see if the catholic understanding is correct. If Jesus literally became the bread and wine before His disciples at the Last Supper then a couple of things would follow:grandfather
It was Jesus who taught that. The apostles learned it from Him and continued the teaching. You know this and are being obstinate for the sake of being obstinate, arguing for the sake of argument, not furthering reasonable dialogue…
- it would mean Jesus now has another nature i.e. that of bread and wine
- there is no indication in the least that the bread or wine has the characteristics of deity.
- there is no indication from the response of the disciples at this supper they took Jesus in a literal way since to do so would have violated the command not to drink blood. We see no objection to this from them.
J
justasking4
Guest
BHTech;3601260]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Not so. I’m trying to understand what they mean just as you are. Can you tell specifically what they mean i.e. where your church has interpreted this verse (John 10:16)?
Of course you are. Otherwise we would not be discussing this and how it fits in our churches.BHTech
I am not trying to understand what Jesus means.
Those that believe that Christ died for their sins and rose again coupled with the profession of it would be this flock. (See I Cornithians 15:1-4 and Romans 10:9-10; Ephesians 3:4-6)You are trying to deflect the issue from yourself on to us. What do you understand by one flock? The passage is in front of you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Not changing it at all but this must be part of this discussion. The catholic church claims to have this “shepherd” i.e. pope in which all of chriistianity to be unitied under.
BHTech
Again I ask why don’t’t the Southern Baptist and denominations X, Y, Z follow Jesus words?
They may not share the same church name or building but they do share the same faith in Christ and the various characteristics stated above. They are of the same flock though they have differences.Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
What makes you think they have not? They would all claim that Christ is alone is the supreme Shepherd over the entire church.
BHTech;
To the best of my knowledge they are still the Southern Baptist and denominations X, Y, and Z. Separate and distinct from each other. Not one flock. Why aren’t they one flock?
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justasking4
Guest
I thought a person was not excomunicated until they were offically told. Secondly, are you saying there is a difference between being excomunicated and separated?They are excommunicated. They have excommunicated themselves by their acts. The Church only lets them know they are separated.
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bnapgh
Guest
You mean other than our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ ‘‘literally’’ saying that it has?
- there is no indication in the least that the bread or wine has the characteristics of deity.
Have you ever read what the first century church fathers who knew the Apostles wrote about transsubstantiation?
- there is no indication from the response of the disciples at this supper they took Jesus in a literal way
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BHTech
Guest
Please explain? I don’t understand. Aren’t we talking about the passage John 10 and your desire to understand what Jesus meant?Of course you are. Otherwise we would not be discussing this and how it fits in our churches.
Lutherans, Anglicans all believe that yet you did not seem to include them in your list of doctrinally sounds Protestant denomination. You indicated only Southern Baptists fit your bill. Why is that? Did you forget them or are they not doctrinally sound? What is wrong with them?Those that believe that Christ died for their sins and rose again coupled with the profession of it would be this flock. (See I Cornithians 15:1-4 and Romans 10:9-10; Ephesians 3:4-6)
Why don’t they share the same building or make the buildings to conform to the Southern Baptist style or have the same type of worship? Why? Are Onenes Pentecostals in that flock in your opinion?They may not share the same church name or building but they do share the same faith in Christ and the various characteristics stated above. They are of the same flock though they have differences.
Brent
Converts Den - members.shaw.ca/bmaundy/home.html
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