SPLIT: How is a Catholic saved?

[paul_c]

Did the so called church fathers believe that Peter was the “rock” that our LORD would build His church on? I don’t think so. Catholic historians have written about the “fathers” believing that our Lord was either speaking of Himself or the Peter’s confession.
Check out von Dollinger [The Pope and The Council. London, 1869, p. 74] and de Rosa [Vicars of Christ: The Dark Side of The Papacy, Crown Publishers, 1988, pp. 24-25.

Of course the Church Fathers believed that Peter was the rock on which Jesus built his church Von Dollinger and de Rosa are certainly not Church fathers. Try reading Eusebius, whose church histroy written in 320 AD compiled much of what the earlier church fathers had to say: Its free on line here: newadvent.org/fathers/2501.htm
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[paul_c]

Thanks Paul.

I agree with all you’ve said and I praise and thank God for those non Catholic Christians who’ve harnessed the courage of their convictions to come home to God’s one true Church. It’s all God’s doing of course, so I pray that He leads many more back to the shelter of the Rock.

I’m a cradle Catholic, but both my parents were converts to Catholicism, each from a different faith. When I hear about the hurdles that each of them had to overcome to arrive at the fullness of truth, I struggle to fully understand and appreciate the immense challenge(s) that they faced, especially in the more conservative society of over half a century ago. It’s generally so much easier to choose one’s own faith nowadays, at least within the Christian world - although we still hear some tales of bitter and painful opposition.

There’s a question though about contemporary Protestantism that begs to be asked…

Putting the Catholic Church totally aside for a minute, why are **today’s **Protestants constantly creating new “churches” and denominations amongst themselves, each with a new/different set of beliefs/doctrines? So many in fact, that everybody’s lost count. What’s driving that? What sort of communal **mindset **makes so many individuals in a faith community imagine that they have legitimate authority to “found” a “church” according to their own personal understanding of God and His Word? Is Protestantism not spawning an exponential number of new Luthers in the world today? From another angle, what is so inexorably driving non Catholic Christians further and further away from reconciliation and unity, even among themselves, let alone with the Catholic Church? How can the Word of God change or mutate so many times, in this case within Protestantism? Is it that it isn’t the Truth that is mutating (because He can’t), but rather, a lie? Is that it?

Every time I try to engage a non Catholic Christian on this question, I’m met either with silence or a change of topic, so I’d be very interested in some commentary on this straight from the mouths of Protestants themselves.

Francis

I think many contemporary non-denominational Protestants believe in sola Fide and Sola scriptura and priesthood of the people. These concepts all draw on self reliance to ascertain the truth. So they shop for a church which agrees with what they personally believe and the more brazen among them create their own churches if they can’t find a fit. This is about independence as much as anything. “No one can tell me what to believe”

 

[fxcc]

The majority is not always right…is it?

2000 years of history teaches us that in the case of the Catholic Church, they always are!

I understand that you’re suggesting that 1500 years of undivided (Catholic) Christianity was wrong, before a bunch of tearaways led by an excommunicated Catholic became right.

As further evidence of that, you’re suggesting that **one **lone dissenter in **one **Church Council of **667 **bishops was right. How did you figure that out? I can’t!

And you’re also suggesting that a billion Catholics are wrong, but at least one out of many thousands of splinter groups of Christians in the world, *(no two of which agree with one another on all aspects of their faith), ***could **be right.

OK, even if I were to buy into such a proposition, the question would obviously arise: **which **one? We’re all interested in the Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth, right?

The last time I asked that question - about who was wholly and totally right - about 33,000 hands went up, all saying “Me, me, me!” I had a long hard think about that. Then I decided I’d be going on a real wild goose chase trying to find such a **hypothetical **“right group”, and that even a hundredth of such a search couldn’t be completed in one lifetime, and the smartest thing to do by far was actually to remain loyal to the 2000 year old majority! If I spent my days checking out every heresy and error and alternative theory there ever was and is in Christianity, why, I’d have no time at all to pray, worship or do any good works, let alone get to heaven!

Fortunately, no lie lasts forever, and this **majority **that I’ve decided to stick with has lasted way longer than anyone else - from 33 AD in fact! Besides, having **properly **studied and reflected on what they teach, **everything **about their beliefs makes absolute sense to me! Praise God!

 

[inkaneer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickCat
Did the so called church fathers believe that Peter was the “rock” that our LORD would build His church on? I don’t think so. Catholic historians have written about the “fathers” believing that our Lord was either speaking of Himself or the Peter’s confession.
Check out von Dollinger [The Pope and The Council. London, 1869, p. 74] and de Rosa [Vicars of Christ: The Dark Side of The Papacy, Crown Publishers, 1988, pp. 24-25.

thank you Quick Cat…since you made other references here is a the actual transript from a speech made by Bishop Strossmayer at the Vatican Council Of 1870…

mtc.org/bishop_s.html

You have got to be kidding me! That Bishop Strossmeyer speech is a forgery and has been proved to be a fraud. In fact the writer is a former priest named Jose Esquevara (sp?) who signed a deposition under oath that he fabricated the speech. Bishop Strossmeyer himself repudiated the speech as a forgery. However certain protestant anti Catholic hate groups including the group “Mission to Catholics” of which you provided their URL continue to circulate the forgery. However they do not claim the speech is genuine. But probably to avoid any lawsuits they say the following on their websites:

“Strossmayer’s Speech regarding Papal infallibility is reported to have been delivered to the First Vatican Council in 1870.”

Notice the “…is reported to have been delivered…”

Now let the truth be known. Bishop Strossmeyer came from Croatia. His diocese bordered on land that was populated by people of the Orthodox faith. Peace between the various peoples was tenuous at best. Strossmeyer’s concern was that the Papal infallibility dogma would provide the spark that would ignite a war that would spead to engulf all Europe. His concern was that the Orthodox, who were in schism from Rome over the issue of papal authority, would react in a non cheristian manner. His concern was not unfounded either for indeed Croatia was a political tinderbox of various factions and the war Strossmeyer feared did erupt some forty years later, not because of the papal infallinbility doctrine but from another event that sparked bloodshed in Croatia. That war was the most destructive war ever to have occurred up to that time. We know that war as World War I.

It is true, therefore, that Strossmeyer was initially opposed to the formal definition of the dogma as were a couple of other bishops. But Strossmeyer’s opposition was not theological. But so what if he was opposed even for theological reasons? Was a difference of opinion unique to this council? How about the council of Jerusalem? In Acts chapter 15 we read where the council gathered to consider the issue in Antioch. The scriptures “…There was much debate…”. Debates do not occur when there is only oneside or when everyone is in agreement. In order for debates to occur there must be opposing sides. There was at Jerusalem and there was at Vatican I. And at Vatican I, like Jerusalem, once the council decided on something the debate ended.

It is obvious to me that there are people on this forum who are not interested in “Catholic Answers” but rather have an agenda of their own to pursue. How can anyone believe that people who post URLS of hate groups like “Mission To Catholics” are christian? At least QuickCat is honest enough to claim no religion but mpjw claims to be a “bible believing christian” Tell me something mpjw, is lying and perpetrating fraud as you try to do here part of your bible beliefs? Tell me, what part of, "“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.” is not in your bible?

 

[fxcc]

Of course the Church Fathers believed that Peter was the rock on which Jesus built his church Von Dollinger and de Rosa are certainly not Church fathers. Try reading Eusebius, whose church histroy written in 320 AD compiled much of what the earlier church fathers had to say: Its free on line here: newadvent.org/fathers/2501.htm

Von Dollinger a Church Father? He was excommunicated as a heretic!
I don’t know about de Rosa, but to read a paper entitled “The Dark Side of the Papacy” would certainly be less interesting than reading the Da Vinci Code!

By the way, even if Jesus **did **build His Church on Peter’s faith, as is claimed by our brethren, the fact is there is a mountain of scriptural evidence about his primacy and authority in the Church. I included a whole long page, using relevant Scripture quotes in my commentary on this subject, but somehow, that went totally unresponded. I wonder why. No. Truth be told, actually I don’t!

 

[mpjw2]

One dissenting voice maketh not a Council.

also consider this… the amount of non believers in the world who deny the ONE voice of God as truth far outnumber the ones who believe God.

If the majority (non believers) does not become the minority real fast, they will be in for a rude awakening when they meet death…the truth will be revealed and then it will be too late to believe

They will be found guilty of all their sins and be sentenced by God to spend eternity in hell.

 

[mpjw2]

God will be the judge of whether you go to heaven or hell. But just out of curiosity what excuse are you planning on giving?

Hi inkaneer

Excuse?? hmmmmmmmmm?

Inkaneer I will be happy to answer your question.

before I do …I am just curious and wonder what your answer might be to God if this were to happen…

Say you die and come face to face with God at the gate of heaven and God asks you this question…

Inkaneer, I been watching you all my life…tell me why you believe I should let you into my kingdom.

What would your answer to God be?

 

[JustaServant]

Hi inkaneer

Excuse?? hmmmmmmmmm?

Inkaneer I will be happy to answer your question.

before I do …I am just curious and wonder what your answer might be to God if this were to happen…

Say you die and come face to face with God at the gate of heaven and God asks you this question…

Inkaneer, I been watching you all my life…tell me why you believe I should let you into my kingdom.

What would your answer to God be?

“For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods,** knowing** good and evil.” Gen. 3:5 (KJV).

Asking ‘what if’ questions such as this is silly and unproductive. And is directly related to the verse above from your own KJV. The idea being that wanting to be ‘like God’ is the foundation of Original Sin. And what could be more ‘being like a god’, than having the knowledge of who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell. It is an enticing philosophy that attracts people into a web that is hard to get out of. Behind the doctrine, of course is the teaching that you and I can ‘know for sure’ that our destiny is Heaven. Or as fundamentalist preachers love to put it: ‘you’re as sure for Heaven as Jesus Himself!’ Catholics shrink from such statements as they smack of the sin of presumption.

 

[mpjw2]

No.

But you **should **be terrified of not having the grace and protection of the Church’s sacraments, most especially Reconciliation and the Most Holy Eucharist, on your journey to that wonderful place where God so lovingly awaits you and Satan is so determined none of us should get to!

God bless,

Francis

P.S. I’m so tempted to ask why you left the Church, but mama always told me curiosity killed the cat!

I am at peace with my decision and by the way you can ask why i left the catholic church if yiu start another thread since that is away from the subject of this one

 

[mpjw2]

Asking ‘what if’ questions such as this is silly and unproductive. And is directly related to the verse above from your own KJV. The idea being that wanting to be ‘like God’ is the foundation of Original Sin. And what could be more ‘being like a god’, than having the knowledge of who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell. It is an enticing philosophy that attracts people into a web that is hard to get out of. Behind the doctrine, of course is the teaching that you and I can ‘know for sure’ that our destiny is Heaven. Or as fundamentalist preachers love to put it: ‘you’re as sure for Heaven as Jesus Himself!’ Catholics shrink from such statements as they smack of the sin of presumption.

salvation is not a presumption When God himself tells you Himself if you believe I will save you

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16

where is the presumption?

 

[mpjw2]

David or anyone…

I still did not get an answer to these questions…

Do you believe that, after spending time in purgatory, there is still a chance someone may not spend eternity in heaven?

In other words…David, if you were to make a confession right now where you are of sins known and forgotten, are you 100% sure that you will go to heaven?

if not immediately after your death, do you believe you will after time spent in purgatory?

**Is there anyway possible way you believe that you may not spend eternity in heaven?

if yes…How would that be possible?**

thank you

God bless

mpjw

 

[mpjw2]

I’m not so sure. Are you?

A whole billion of us Catholics, along with stacks of people in heaven are offering the timeless Sacrifice of Calvary every day at Mass, offering the **pleasing **sacrifice of the perfect Lamb of God to God, seeking to appease His just wrath and earn His mercy and pardon for the entireworld. Jesus is doing the same thing too (in fact, He’s personally leading the Masses, being both the victim Lamb and the High Priest of the Sacrifice), so I reckon our chances of success must be pretty good, no?

All churches should be involved in outreach

however…

I have gone online to a random chat site…been there for a month. I chated with a lot of people and of all those I talked about a belief in God…less than 10 people said they were believers…the nonbelievers far out number the believers …

Do a personal survey and you will find out this alarming truth.

 

[fxcc]

salvation is not a presumption When God himself tells you Himself if you believe I will save you

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16

where is the presumption?

What exactly is “believing”?

Here’s the Catholic definition of faith (or believing, if you prefer):

*Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe **all *that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself. (Catechism of the Catholic Church 1814)

Makes it rather obvious, that when you speak of “faith” and when we Catholics speak of “faith”, we’re not talking about the same thing, are we?

Incidentally, did **any **of the Apostles, who undoubtedly had faith in Christ, ever say “I am saved?” If anyone had Jesus smack in the centre of their lives (quite literally, in person), they did.

Instead, St Paul for instance, writes that he might actually be disqualified from heaven! He writes that he’s working out his salvation with fear and trembling! Whoa, what was that all about? He certainly didn’t sound like he shared your surefire confidence about the outcome of **his **life, did he?

Do **you **fear? Do **you **tremble? Do you **await **with hope the final verdict on **your **life? If so, how come you keep commenting again and again on this thread that you’re **already **100% sure of getting into heaven?

 

[JustaServant]

The heart of the matter is if I can ‘be sure’ who is going to Heaven, than I can also be ‘sure’ who are not. It is a ‘surity’ that belongs only to God.
Here is some info taken from:
catholicbasictraining.com/apologetics/coursetexts/1s.htm

The sin of presumption
The sin of presumption is the name given to the belief in eternal assurance; it is presuming on God’s mercy. It is not just a theologically incorrect position to hold, but is also one which is a sin because it makes one proud and think that one has no need of God’s further assistance. The person thinks they are already permanently “saved” and so they do not need God, the Church or anything else.
The sin of presumption does not include making statements such as “when we are in Heaven . . .” or by talking about seeing God face to face and all the other benefits of Heaven as something which we know will happen.Catholics who are in a state of grace (and it is possible to know when you are in a state of grace as only mortal sin takes that away, and you are always aware of when you have committed a mortal sin) are assured Heaven at that moment. ** The sin of presumption refers to a belief that regardless of mortal sins one will still merit Heaven.**

**Here’s another from an article by Fr Vincent Serpa:
**
ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?Pgnu=1&Pg=Forum4&recnu=1&number=442714

This is how the Old Catholic Encyclopedia defines the sin of presumption: "It may be defined as **the condition of a soul which, **because of a badly regulated reliance on God’s mercy and power, hopes for salvation without doing anything to deserve it, or for pardon of his sins without repenting of them."

 

[fxcc]

David or anyone…

I still did not get an answer to these questions…

Do you believe that, after spending time in purgatory, there is still a chance someone may not spend eternity in heaven?

In other words…David, if you were to make a confession right now where you are of sins known and forgotten, are you 100% sure that you will go to heaven?

if not immediately after your death, do you believe you will after time spent in purgatory?

**Is there anyway possible way you believe that you may not spend eternity in heaven?

if yes…How would that be possible?**

thank you

God bless

mpjw

Hell: no way out!
Purgatory: only way out is up! (That’s why you were being cleansed in the first place!)
Heaven: you wouldn’t want out!

 

[mpjw2]

Quote: Tell me something mpjw, is lying and perpetrating fraud as you try to do here part of your bible beliefs? Tell me, what part of, "“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.” is not in your bible?

I do not believe in lying and/or perpetrating fraud…I was hesitant on postig the bishops transcript.

Am I 100 % sure it is true or not? honestly no.

Outside of that, I have been expressing myself with nothing short of what I believe to be true.

I will not post articles of any type against the catholic faith.

It was wrong for me to do so as I was not there so i do not know in fact if the speech was made.

I am sorry for posting it…do you have it in your heart ot forgive me?

 

[JustaServant]

What exactly is “believing”?

Here’s the Catholic definition of faith (or believing, if you prefer):

*Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe **all ***that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself. (Catechism of the Catholic Church 1814)

Makes it rather obvious, that when you speak of “faith” and when we Catholics speak of “faith”, we’re not talking about the same thing, are we?

Incidentally, did **any **of the Apostles, who undoubtedly had faith in Christ, ever say “I am saved?” If anyone had Jesus smack in the centre of their lives (quite literally, in person), they did.

Instead, St Paul for instance, writes that he might actually be disqualified from heaven! He writes that he’s working out his salvation with fear and trembling! Whoa, what was that all about? He certainly didn’t sound like he shared your surefire confidence about the outcome of **his **life, did he?

Do **you **fear? Do **you **tremble? Do you **await **with hope the final verdict on **your **life? If so, how come you keep commenting again and again on this thread that you’re **already **100% sure of getting into heaven?

BTW, just so you know. You are coming dangerously close to breaking forum rules (which you agreed to when you clicked ‘I accept’) on proselytizing Catholics.

 

[fxcc]

All churches should be involved in outreach

however…

I have gone online to a random chat site…been there for a month. I chated with a lot of people and of all those I talked about a belief in God…less than 10 people said they were believers…the nonbelievers far out number the believers …

Do a personal survey and you will find out this alarming truth.

God’s in charge, so we should **never **be **alarmed **about anything, even though we can and should have genuine Christian concern about the sinful state of the world (starting always with ourselves). And when we do, first we pray more fervently, for ourselves and for everyone, then we try and witness harder to the Truth by our lives and then our words - as indeed we’re doing right now on this thread.

The rest is up to God. Isn’t it so reassuring to know that He is a God whose justice is **always **tempered by His mercy?

 

[mpjw2]

God’s in charge, so we should **never **be **alarmed **about anything, even though we can and should have genuine Christian concern about the sinful state of the world (starting always with ourselves). And when we do, first we pray more fervently, for ourselves and for everyone, then we try and witness harder to the Truth by our lives and then our words - as indeed we’re doing right now on this thread.

The rest is up to God. Isn’t it so reassuring to know that He is a God whose justice is **always **tempered by His mercy?

agree with everything you said:thumbsup: especially the witnessing part:thumbsup:

 

[mpjw2]

Hell: no way out!
Purgatory: only way out is up! (That’s why you were being cleansed in the first place!)
Heaven: you wouldn’t want out!

I like your answer.

ok so you as a catholic believe once in purgatory, and after a certain time being purged, Heaven is guaranteed right?

i assume yes

That said, do you believe there are catholic teachings which, if followed, God will definitely not sentence you to hell?