SPLIT: How is a Catholic saved?

[fxcc]

excellent question …

I do not believe I separated myself away from Jesus Christ

I have separated myself from the Catholic Church with no desire to return

I do not believe the Catholic Church is the body of Christ

**The body of Christ is made up of **all the church believers in Him, inclusive of the Catholic Church

We all have an important role in witnessing and winning souls to Jesus Christ

Hey, Good Magician, can I eat my cake and have it too?
Sounds like you’ve found a neat way to do that!!!
No can do?
Then how about making pigs fly?



And if the light in you is darkness, how great will the darkness be.
Jes thinkin’, dassal!

 

[fxcc]

I have separated myself from the Catholic Church with no desire to return

So why are you here wasting your everyone’s time and your own?

this is a discussion forum and I am trying to figure out as to what catholics actually believe about salvation?

Why the interest? Given the opening statement from you, this can only mean that you’re trying to proselytize Catholics, right?

 

[mpjw2]

So whereas St Paul clearly preached the Body of Christ as one Church unified in purpose by the head, Jesus Christ, you are claiming that you can leave the body and still be a part of it. This makes no logical sense.

Paul …you believe the Body of Christ is only the Catholic Church…I understand that

but for I moment thats all I ask, look at scripture through my eyes.

I believe Christ’s church body is not only the Catholic Church, but made up of all the Christian churches of the world. All play an important part in winning souls to God’s kingdom.

You have been greatly decieved if you believe that you are still a member of the Body that you have in fact left and are in the process of trying to tear down by trying to convince others to leave

Paul I am sorry to hear you believe this and I understand why you do.
When I was catholic I met pushy Christians that I wish would just go away…I did not want any part of them.

Now here I am where I never thought I would be…

I can promise you that my purpose for being here is not to tear down the Catholic Church and/or try to convince anyone to leave.

if you have not done so…read my response to you in the other thread

my purpose for being hear is to find a way for unity

God bless

 

[mpjw2]

So why are you here wasting your everyone’s time and your own?

I am sorry you believe I am wasting my time, and if I am wasting your time, I am sorry.

Francis, You have been nothing short of a Godly person in answering my questions to which I appreciate

Why the interest? Given the opening statement from you, this can only mean that you’re trying to proselytize Catholics, right?

wrong

look at my respnse to Paul previous post

God bless

 

[mpjw2]

Hey, Good Magician, can I eat my cake and have it too?
Sounds like you’ve found a neat way to do that!!!
No can do?
Then how about making pigs fly?



And if the light in you is darkness, how great will the darkness be.
Jes thinkin’, dassal!

Francis i will never make fun of the way you believe…

this is one of the many reasons why there is no unity between christians.

remember there are non christians viewing these posts searching for truth

What do you believe goes through their mind when they see something like you just posted?

…btw I am talking to myself too

 

[inkaneer]

my purpose for being hear is to find a way for unity

Then you have to know that there can only be unity in the Catholic Church, If that is not your only option then you are indeed wasting your time. If you think for one nano second that the Catholic Church will compromise even one of its doctrines to facilitate unity then you not only underestimate the Holy Spirit to guide the Church into all truth but you mock the Holy Spirit as well and that can not be good.

 

[mpjw]

Indeed, maybe only a few will! Only God knows that.

to my statement…

I hope you are not suggesting that to those who do not sell their possesions and then give to the poor cannot gain eternal life.

If that were true, only a few people will gain heaven

Francis, I saw this post and wondered where it went. That was before the split

I wanted to let you know that the words you speak here I believe are from your heart and i happen to agree with you 100%

God needs more people like you who believe like you do:thumbsup:

The underlying lesson in this exhortation of Jesus to “sell all and give it away” is obviously charity. Or better still, “love in action”, which is a wonderful definition of God Himself, if you ask me.

so true

And make no mistake, each of us **has **to be remade in His image and likeness (that was deformed in us by sin) before we can be taken up into the divine life of The Holy Trinity in heaven. If Jesus could give His life for us, if the Father would let His only begotten Son be murdered for us, yes, we **can **give away our possessions (or even our miserable lives) for others - that’s the point that Jesus is so forcefully making when He makes this exceptional demand.

I like what Matthew says in Matthew 16:25
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.

I don’t think any mature Christian would suggest that God insists that we give away everything we have and beg on the streets in abject poverty (although some saints have indeed done that, like St Francis of Assisi famously). However, it is equally true that “worshipping” mammon, which often comprises of slavish attachment to material possessions and wealth (as we see so often in this increasingly materialistic world of ours today) is very contrary to the Gospel, wouldn’t you agree?

absolutely

My Franciscan friends have often told me that it is OK to own necessary things but never OK to “be owned” by them. That’s when they become false gods to us. There’s an old proverb “The surest guide to your spirituality is the size of your wardrobe!” I reckon there’s so much truth in that!

sure is

Seriously though, (you already been serious) how much each of do for others, whether by alms giving or other forms of charity, relative to our own individual circumstances and abilities, only God can judge.

absolutely:thumbsup:

And most times, we ourselves can judge, if we’re truly honest with ourselves. Wouldn’t it be so wonderful if God said to us in heaven, “When I was in need, my son, you even sold all you had and gave it to me!”?

that would be wonderful

this is precisely why we need all the help we can get to be “perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.” No way any man, woman or child can do that without very special, supernatural help! Nevertheless, if this was an impossible task, God wouldn’t ask it of us. With the help of God’s grace then, particularly in the sacraments He has provided for our assistance, we can do all things, “in Him who strengthens us”.

taken from Phillipians 4:13

If we don’t believe this (that we can be transformed gradually into a new man, indeed into little Christs, by His grace), how can we ever hope to love our enemies or do good to those who hate us? You know, to terrorists and the like.

If the whole world believed what you said especially the part about being little Christs towards others…

w o w e e e e

God bless you Francis

 

[mpjw]

correction

 

[mpjw]

corrrection

 

[mpjw2]

Then you have to know that there can only be unity in the Catholic Church, If that is not your only option then you are indeed wasting your time. If you think for one nano second that the Catholic Church will compromise even one of its doctrines to facilitate unity then you not only underestimate the Holy Spirit to guide the Church into all truth but you mock the Holy Spirit as well and that can not be good.

If you think for one nano second that the Catholic Church will compromise even one of its doctrines

not my intent, I fully respect catholic doctrine and i know there is no way I am going to change it.
I have not even given it a thought

 

[mpjw2]

mpjw2
as I stated…

The body of Christ is made up of all the church believers in Him, inclusive of the Catholic Church, the baptists, lutherans, presbyterians, protestants, etc

the catholic church is just one part of Christs’ church body

not included are the buddhist, muslims, atheists, hindus, jews for they have no belief in Jesus Christ for who He is.

OK. But why do you state that? What are your reasons?

God revealed to me there is salvation outside the Catholic Church
see my post on other thread…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=441873&page=76

The Catholic Church is in possesion of the fulness of Truth. All those not Catholic who are validly baptised are joined to her, though imperfectly.

You believe this I do not.

Peter is not the rock Jesus was referrring to in scripture.

consider why I do not believe, you need a solid foundation to build upon.

No human being except Jesus is solid all truth.

Peter was definitely not solid…he denied Jesus three times when confronted with telling truth

Why must it be either/or? Why not both/and?

David, what do you mean by both?

there only can be one truth right?

 

[skeyes]

MPJW2,

I have read most of what you have posted. I can see that you have a real desire to spread the Good News. But, you see, Jesus’ greatest wish was that we would be one. We cannot be one when people pick and choose based upon feelings what they believe the Good News to be. We have the opportunity to live in Jesus, through His church, beginning with our Baptism. We do not wait to die to know our destiny. I know that right now I am in a state of grace. I know that there are no mortal sins on my soul that have not been confessed. I claim vicotry in Jesus today and everyday. I don’t worry about my personal judgment because I can only repent of my sins today and change how I live accordingly. To do anything else would be, as others have said, presumptious. I have eternal life now and will continue to have eternal life unless I choose to change that by being prideful and worshiping myself through sin.

I invite you to come home. You don’t have top try to figure all this out. Jesus is offering His whole truth in His Church. Don’t continue to decide for yourself what Jesus revealed to His Church through His apostles. Thnaks,

In Christ,
Stan

 

[Beth_Martin]

MPJW2,

I have read most of what you have posted. I can see that you have a real desire to spread the Good News. But, you see, Jesus’ greatest wish was that we would be one. We cannot be one when people pick and choose based upon feelings what they believe the Good News to be. We have the opportunity to live in Jesus, through His church, beginning with our Baptism. We do not wait to die to know our destiny. I know that right now I am in a state of grace. I know that there are no mortal sins on my soul that have not been confessed. I claim vicotry in Jesus today and everyday. I don’t worry about my personal judgment because I can only repent of my sins today and change how I live accordingly. To do anything else would be, as others have said, presumptious. I have eternal life now and will continue to have eternal life unless I choose to change that by being prideful and worshiping myself through sin.

I invite you to come home. You don’t have top try to figure all this out. Jesus is offering His whole truth in His Church. Don’t continue to decide for yourself what Jesus revealed to His Church through His apostles. Thnaks,

In Christ,
Stan

Hello stan,

Sounds like the softer side of Jesus; that is half the story. One must take the harder side of Jesus as well; counting the cost. The fact that you believe you have some control over your salvation tells Jesus you do not fully trust in Him for your salvation because you believe their is something in you that can take away from the Son what the Father has given, which in effect makes you more powerful than God. You are not living and trusting by faith in God, but in faith of self and God.

**"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given {them} to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch {them} out of the Father’s hand. 30 “I and the Father are one.”

Your premise that you can somehow remove yourself from the gift of Salvation smacks in the face of God. If one believes they can lose, then they must also believe they can regain therefore their is no salvation in that gospel because it neglects the completed work of Christ to restore the sinner to God. Salvation is the being saved from the penalty of sin by the one who offers the salvation, not by the one receiving.

Scripture does teach and encourage us to persevere in holiness and godly living, which means we don’t sit on our butts and do nothing. God said the following: ***For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. ***-----Eph 2

We are constantly encouraged to act and to move why? Because in doing so we glorify God, which is the purpose for the Christians existence in an alien land since the Christians home is elsewhere with God.

 

[skeyes]

“Noone can snatch them” doesn’t say that I cannot chose to leave. Scripture is clear about “finishing the race”. This “God does it all” is a new gospel and should be avoided at all cost. Don’t be fooled, you can choose to walk away. Humans have always had and continue to have free will. We choose all day everyday whether we will say yes to Jesus. When we reject Him, by sin, we separate ourselves from being in Him.

This does not minimize the sacrifice which Jesus so willingly underwent for our salvation. This does not minimize the role of the Holy Spirit. It does howevver say that we are always responsible for our actions.

In Christ,
Stan

 

[Beth_Martin]

“Noone can snatch them” doesn’t say that I cannot chose to leave. Scripture is clear about “finishing the race”. This “God does it all” is a new gospel and should be avoided at all cost. Don’t be fooled, you can choose to walk away. Humans have always had and continue to have free will. We choose all day everyday whether we will say yes to Jesus. When we reject Him, by sin, we separate ourselves from being in Him.

This does not minimize the sacrifice which Jesus so willingly underwent for our salvation. This does not minimize the role of the Holy Spirit. It does howevver say that we are always responsible for our actions.

In Christ,
Stan

Stan you have much to reconcile with God’s Word.
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined {to become} conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

**But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 31 so that, just as it is written, “LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD.” **

**God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. **

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Who are the “sons of God”? The saints. Who composes the true church of Jesus? The saints or “sons of God”. Has it been revealed? No.

It has been nice talking with you and remember; there will be both Catholics and non-Catholics in heaven on the basis of faith alone in Christ alone.

 

[mpjw2]

MPJW2,

I have read most of what you have posted. I can see that you have a real desire to spread the Good News. But, you see, Jesus’ greatest wish was that we would be one. We cannot be one when people pick and choose based upon feelings what they believe the Good News to be.

Isn’t the fact that Paul in his letter to the Romans declares you will be saved …

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved Romans 10:9

We all want to go to heaven and not hell…Isn’t good news that Paul let’s us know how to get there?

We have the opportunity to live in Jesus, through His Christian church, beginning with our trust in Him as Lord of our lives and then being Baptized.

We do not wait to die to know our destiny.

I agree

I know that right now I am in a state of grace.

I do too

I know that there are no mortal sins on my soul that have not been confessed.

I do too

I claim vicotry in Jesus today and everyday.

I do too

I don’t worry about my personal judgment because I can only repent of my sins today and change how I live accordingly.

I believe the same

To do anything else would be, as others have said, presumptious.

like what are you referring?

I have eternal life now and will continue to have eternal life unless I choose to change that by being prideful and worshiping myself through sin.

agree 100%

I invite you to come home.

Stan you have said what I been saying all along. I believe I am home and at peace with the Lord knowing that I have eternal life just like you

you are the first catholic to say that you know you have eternal life

here is was Paul C stated to me in another thread

MPJW,
You see, yoru faith is based on what you WANT to believe. You want to believe you are going to heaven, so you seek out a religion that tells you what you want to hear. But what good does that do you if it is not the truth? In fact, it could very well have the opposite effect to what you want.

You see, Satan is very, very cleaver. He trades on half truths and personal insecurity to lead you to hell. It sounds great when you hear that Jesus did it all for you and all you need to do it trust him. Except thats not all you need to do. You need to follow him. Which means you need to partake of his sacraments and you need to love God and your neighbors, even to the death. I’m sure its very comforting now that the Baptists play God and declare themselves saved but you know in their hearts, many don’t believe this. That’s why they are always trying to re-asure each other that they have been saved. But they don’t know. They arent valid judges. Can they read men’s hearts? Can they even read thier own?

Frankly, you need the grace of the sacraments more than the reassurance of your baptist friends. And I’m sorry that you obviously weren’t properly catechized but you know, there is nothing stopping you now from learning your faith correctly. And when you are practiciing the sacraments and devotions in the right frame of mind, you will find that peace you so obviously desire. For some people, it is necessary to leave the church in order to truly find it upon returning.

Stan as a former baptist you even stated to me you know you have eternal life
to which i agreed with you about myself whole heartedly:thumbsup:

You don’t have top try to figure all this out.

God gave us His simple salvation plan in the bible

Jesus is offering His whole truth in His Church

…to His Christian Church body.

Don’t continue to decide for yourself what Jesus revealed to His Church through His apostles.

I only trust what God has revealed to me through prayer with Him and If the bible comfirms it, it is a win win

God bless you Stan

mpjw

 

[mpjw2]

Hi beth

I am curious about one thing you stated to stan…

The fact that you believe you have some control over your salvation tells Jesus you do not fully trust in Him for your salvation because you believe their is something in you that can take away from the Son what the Father has given,.

Let me ask you Beth …if you fall to sin tomorrow and never confess it God, do you believe you will still go to heaven?

thank you

mpjw

 

[skeyes]

One more try. I participate in eternal life now by being in Sanctifying Grace. I cannot be so sure after my death because I do not know today all the rest of my life’s action. So therefore even though I can say now that I would love to continue to follow in the Lord’s way, I cannot claim that victory until I have finished the race. I participate in eternal life because everyone who is in Christ, is alive in Christ.

In Christ,
Stan

 

[fxcc]

One more try.
Stan

Matthew 10
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

If you check through earlier pages of this conversation, you’ll find that quite a few people, including myself, have already “departed” from a couple of its participants, given their glaring lack of intellectual honesty, compounded by their unabashed efforts to (mis)use this forum **only **as a platform to propagate their own outlandish lies and delusions.

Just hoping to save you the same eventual dismay and frustration, mate!

 

[Beth_Martin]

Hi beth

I am curious about one thing you stated to stan…

Let me ask you Beth …if you fall to sin tomorrow and never confess it God, do you believe you will still go to heaven?

thank you

mpjw

I sin everyday and many I do not confess because I do not recall them always and often I sin by ommision and by complaining about things. Sometimes I find out something is a sin that I never thought of before. the point is that we sin so often that many times we do not even realize to the extent. So I will venture to guess that I have at least one sin everyday that went unconfessed, but i live by the spirit and not by the flesh. So to answer your question, all of my sins were forgiven before I was born and were all 100% nailed tothe cross the reason for comeing to God for forgiveness is for two primary reason 1) being respectful and 2) it gives God glory when we admit that HIs standard is perfect and we fall short and need Him.

Sin must be been dealt with before even entering into salvation; if it is not no one will enter into God’s rest no matter how hard they try or how much they desire. That is lliving by faith on the promises of Jesus Christ and never depending on myself. My conscience bears witness to when i sin and when that occurs I do ask for forgiveness. I love God and am in awe of why He would have anything to do with me in the first place, but I am very very thankful that He my life.

I decided to add another comment; as my day moves along I continually confess my sins as my conscience brings them to mind just as I pray throughout the day as circumstances arise. It may be driving by a car accicent and praying for the rescue workers and the victims. It has become such a part of my life that in some ways I do not think about it because I just do it.