SPLIT: How is a Catholic saved?

[mpjw2]

Yes, if there is no mortal sin that i have not confessed, then I would be assured of Purgatory. Then after this “state”, I would be able to see the Beatific Vision and live for all eternity in heaven.

In Christ,
Stan

Thank you Stan that is exactly what I am talking about…not tomorrow right now.

since you believe that Stan, I believe you are saved at this moment and not at any time in the future but right now.

so Stan…

do you believe you are saved if you die right now?..meaning there is no way you are going to hell should you die right now without unconfessed mortal sin.

excuse me for asking, I want to make sure you completly understand what I am asking.

For if your answer is yes, you are saved at this moment, I am afraid you may get objections from your Catholic brethern.

I will let you know that I heard catholics tell me…“no way you will hear a catholic say they are saved”

God bless

mpjw

 

[skeyes]

mpjw

You are asking me to be God. I believe that I have no unconfessed sins, but at the end of the day, God and only God knows whether I would go to heaven. What I have been trying to communicate to you, is that it isn’t about my death. It is about my life in Christ now. I have every reason to believe that if I continue to be in Christ ie: confession, charity, frequent reception of the sacraments and foremost loving God above all else, then my future will take care of itself. As a member of the Body of Christ, through my Baptism, I am in the Kingdom now and it is up to me to remain or to leave.

In Christ,
Stan

 

[fxcc]

There’s so much I’m reading on this thread of having to be without major sin on one’s soul when we die, to be able to get to heaven. That’s correct.
However, what no one has mentioned until now (as far as I know) is that when scripture talks about “nothing unclean” entering heaven it is referring not only to our actual sins but to our sinful natures as well! I suspect it’s the latter that’s going to need plenty of cleansing and purification for most of us!
I might not be angry with anyone right now, but I don’t fancy my chances of sitting in heaven with the volatile nature I’m currently infamous for! (I say that only as a hypothetical example, of course! )
Or, I might not be coveting something at the moment that I die, but God would hardly allow someone with a covetous or jealous nature to be traipsing around heaven (or whatever the saints do in heaven, besides singing “Holy. holy, holy!”).
I might not have a doubt about my faith right at this moment but I might suffer from a tendency not to easily or totally trust God in all things. I don’t surrender to His divine Will easily.
Etc… etc…
Sin produced concupisence (desires of the lower appetite of man, contrary to reasoning). It hugely (but **not **totally) deformed and (continues to deform) our created natures - sadly corrupting the image and likeness of God in us. That dross, consisting of the ugly effects of sin in our lives, has to be removed from us before we can enter heaven. Things like a dishonest nature, egoism, materialism, selfishness, lust, greed or a fickle will all have to addressed and remedied, either on this earth by our faithful cooperation with God’s grace (especially in the Sacraments) or they will have to be burned “as by fire” (1 Cor 3:15) in the after life. How do we know this? Beacuse the Divine Master has ordered us to “be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect!” Phew!
Our imperfections and defects of character don’t magically disappear the moment we die - we live with them and die with them. But we can certainly start to remedy them while we’re alive, so that we can more quickly be made perfect. We’ve been warned that the Master has plans to "sit refining and cleansing the silver, and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and shall refine them as gold, and as silver…” Doesn’t say anything about base metals being wanted in heaven, no matter how spotless! Where the roads themselves “are paved with gold” the inhabitants will naturally be expected to be valued at much more!

The road to perfection/heaven is undeniably, but not impossibly, narrow, uphill and hard - being the way of the Cross that we must “take up and follow”. Fortunately it is the Lord Himself who leads and guides us, and makes all things holy and perfect - provided we co-operate with Him. He forces nothing on anyone, in opposition to their free wills, not even sanctification.

Lord, I pray for strength and fortitude, wisdom and understanding, piety and holy fear of You, so that I may not fail on this journey of life, short though it may be in the light of eternity. Grant me ever more grace in the Sacraments of Your Church. Draw me ever more keenly to your assuring presence in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar. Jesus, I trust in you - in whom I know I can do all things. Make me perfect, as you are perfect. Then, and only then, will I be able to join your saints and angels in heaven, to sing of Your glory forever.

 

[mpjw2]

The body of Christ is made up of all the church believers in Him, inclusive of the Catholic Church, the baptists, lutherans, presbyterians, protestants, etc

the catholic church is just one part of Christs’ church body

With the implications that all are equal. I cannot accept this premise.

I know you can not, but I do.

the ONE TRUE common thread between Catholics and non Catholics is the fact that we do believe in God, He sacrificed His Son Jesus Christ on the cross for our sins, Jesus rose from the dead and ascended into heaven.

in order for our sins to be forgiven the first thing we need to do is believe and have faith above is true and then confess and repent our sin/s to God.

do you agree so far?

I believe God loves all his christian children equally…by the way …He loves all people christian or not equally. God gives us all free chouce to believe in Him or not

Did I not write that it is both? Doesn’t Scripture have many layers of meaning?

well yes and no

let’s look at

“upon this rock”

…it’s a good example

If you think “rock” has only one meaning in this passage then I know you have missed out on the richness of Scripture.

Thats a judgement call which I do not agree with.

I am enriched by scripture, I hear directly from God. How more enriched can one get?

you believe the Catholic Church was built on Peter the first Pope
as it says in scripture “…upon this rock…”

From that belief is one of the reasons for the apostolic chain from pope to cardinal to archbishop to bishop to priest

I view rock as Peter’s confession and expression of faith to Jesus which Jesus built His church

by the way David I believe Jesus is saying this to all his children today… even you…

"you are David, and upon this rock (your faith in Jesus) I built my church

One does not need to understand this passage to love God and neighbor.
This knowledge is not required for salvation.

you right. understanding the passage is not required for salvation
I also agree loving God and neighbor is independant of me understand that passage about “rock”…

by the way the reason I answered “well yes and no” to your question

Doesn’t Scripture have many layers of meaning?

there in only one meaning to the following…

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, …

we will be punished for our sin for eternity in hell…bad news for all of us… …agree?

but the rest of the verse we are discussing the meaning of

…but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God is letting me know the good news is… because God loves me …He has given me a gift of eternal life …in Jesus Christ who died on the cross and shed His blood so my sins are forgiven

Gos is asking me to believe by faith and trust in Jesus as Lord of my life and confess and repent my sin to Him and have a sincere desire to follow Him and sin no more

God bless

mpjw

 

[mpjw2]

The road to perfection/heaven is undeniably, but not impossibly, narrow, uphill and hard - being the way of the Cross that we must “take up and follow”. Fortunately it is the Lord Himself who leads and guides us, and makes all things holy and perfect - provided we co-operate with Him. He forces nothing on anyone, in opposition to their free wills, not even sanctification.

Lord, I pray for strength and fortitude, wisdom and understanding, piety and holy fear of You, so that I may not fail on this journey of life, short though it may be in the light of eternity. Grant me ever more grace in the Sacraments of Your Church. Draw me ever more keenly to your assuring presence in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar. Jesus, I trust in you - in whom I know I can do all things. Make me perfect, as you are perfect. Then, and only then, will I be able to join your saints and angels in heaven, to sing of Your glory forever.

francis…I got goose bumps from this very post. your prayer is so so so sincere. You are so right

oh my God I can not express what I feel right now.

in your prayer francis you said 5 words …

Jesus, I trust in you

as I pray to God we all do trust in Him. The reason Jesus went to the cross is not just to forgive mortal or venial sin…Jesus death on the cross forgave all our sins…all those imperfections you speak of that we all have in our lives… I believe that

your desire to be with Him and to

Make me perfect, as you are perfect.

oh my God …Francis May God bless you for your strength and faith in Him that you would openly pray in a open forum as this.

God I thank you for sending me to this forum where I have a chance to have fellowship with my Catholic brethern in your name as we discuss our faith in you oh God

God… I pray you hear Francis prayer to you…cleanse Him, forgive Him and make him perfect once again

keep him strong in his walk with you…lead Francis to the person you designed him to be…in your holy name Jesus I pray…Amen

Thank you God

Francis i believe the moment you prayed that prayer God made you perfect…I felt the desire of your heart. I hope you do not but if you were to die right now, you would be in heaven…I believe that

please do not get me wrong…If 5 minutes from now you do something …lets say you lose your anger…your clean soul just was soiled and there is only one way to clean it…

a sincere prayer like the one you just said

God bless you

 

[mpjw2]

mpjw

You are asking me to be God.

not at all

I believe that I have no unconfessed sins,

great:thumbsup:

What I have been trying to communicate to you, is that it isn’t about my death. It is about my life in Christ now.I have every reason to believe that if I continue to be in Christ ie: confession, charity, frequent reception of the sacraments and foremost loving God above all else, then my future will take care of itself.

I know what you are communicating to me, I believe that for my life too

I am not sure if you know what I am communicating to you

but at the end of the day, God and only God knows whether I would go to heaven.

what i been trying to communicate to you is not about the end of the day…it is about right now…you do not know for sure if you will see the end of today…do you?

here is what I am trying to communicate…

As a member of the Body of Christ, through my Baptism,

as I believe

I am in the Kingdom now

by saying you are in the Kingdom now …do you then believe you are saved and will go to heaven should you die right now?

yes or no

after this question is answered then yes I 100% agree with you that

it is up to me to remain or to leave.

remain or leave where?

In Christ,
Stan

in christ
Mike

 

[mpjw2]

MPJW2:

My heart goes out ot you because I can see you sincerely want to do the right thing. Be open to where the Spirit takes you. I have seen this scenario several times in the last year. A person grows up in a non-devout Catholic family and hence is poorly catechized. The person is looking for spiritual guidance but just isn’t getting it in the Catholic Church because they just don’t know where to look. They have a conversion experience in a non-Catholic, usually non-denominational church and begin to read scripture. They see the power of God and become very motivated to witness. But something doesn’t seem quite right in what they are being taught. They begin to see inconsistencies

wow that’s me you pretty good Paul

but at the same time, they want to witness back to the Catholics that they have found a better way.

not necessarily so

They get on this website and suddenly find the answers to the questions that they have been asking all their lives.

I get my answers from God… no website

They resist for a few months but then the power of the Spirit overwhelms them and they come rushing home to the Catholic Church as if it was new, because they have now discovered the true chruch that had been previously hidden from them.

sorry Paul, does not apply to me

They witness to their families and before you know it, they also become more devout…

all my family is catholic …except my brother…may I ask prayer…his belief is… he dies then he rots nothing more after that

The spirit works in mysterious ways sometimes.

100% agree

As for me, my father was fairly devout, my mother not so much since her parents never went to mass and had some grudge against the church. But she did go on her own and recieved the sacraments., My catechism was poor but I always went to mass. When I was 13, they gave me a bible as part of CCD and I read it virtually every day since (I’m 50 now). Until I was 40, I did the absolute minimum that could be expected of a practicing catholic. But then, one day at confession, the priest’s penance was to go to daily mass one time. I was nervous about doing that because I had never done it before but I went. And then I went again, and again. and again. I became hooked. I started teaching CCD and that taught me a lot of the basics of the faith that I had never learned while allowing me to witness to my own growing faith… I increased my bible study from 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 and ultimately 5 chapters a day. I began to read the lives of the saints and that was inspiring. I began to experience the rich devotions of the chruch, the rosary, the miraculous medal novenas, the stations of the cross and ultimately, eucharistic adoration. I began witnessing on the internet and eventually was led to this forum. Most recently, I have begun witnessing in a men’s group in our parish. I don’t know where it will end, but the need to do more keeps grwoing within me.

wonderful story, May God continue to do tremendous work through your life

God bless you Paul:thumbsup:

So my message is to be open to where the Spirit takes you. God is very, very merciful and will help you get to where you need to be. But he loves you enough not to force it upon you. It will be your choice.

God Bless you… Paul

Paul, I know you do not believe this but I am right where God wants me to be

are you going to answer the questions I posed to you or should I stop asking?

thank you

God bless

mpjw

 

[paul_c]

I get my answers from God… no website

Not many people get communication directly from God.

Paul, I know you do not believe this but I am right where God wants me to be

are you going to answer the questions I posed to you or should I stop asking?

thank you

God bless

mpjw

I thought I answered them. What am I missing?

 

[fxcc]

A poem and a word of advice to non Catholics on this forum.

THE BLIND MEN AND THE ELEPHANT
by John Godfrey Saxe

It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.

The First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
“God bless me! - but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!”

The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried: “Ho! - what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!”

The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
“I see,” quoth he, “the Elephant
Is very like a snake!”

The Fourth reached out his eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
“What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain,” quoth he;
“Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!”

The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: “E’en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!”

The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
“I see,” quoth he, “the Elephant
Is very like a rope!”

And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

MORAL

So, oft in theologic wars
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!

“There are not more than 100 people in the world who truly hate the Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they perceive to be the Catholic Church.” - Archbishop Fulton Sheen

This forum could engender so many more focused and fruitful conversations if non Catholic Christians interested to seriously engage with Catholics (for whatever reason) would read the Catechism of the Catholic Church (replete as it is with Scripture and the Church’s interpretation and application of it), and then base their questions, doubts, allegations and counter opinions around that.

Here: vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

Why, it might even induce some more Catholics to read their Catechism as well!

 

[mpjw]

Not many people get communication directly from God.

wow I am surprised to hear you say that…God is everyone’s eternal Father…Why wouldn’t anyone want to listen to what He wants to say to His children?

here is a biblical love letter from God…be blessed by it
youtube.com/watch?v=BKmdIdQg3Ks

I thought I answered them. What am I missing?

nothing I saw them after my post.

 

[mpjw2]

A poem and a word of advice to non Catholics on this forum.

THE BLIND MEN AND THE ELEPHANT
by John Godfrey Saxe

It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.

The First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
“God bless me! - but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!”

The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried: “Ho! - what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!”

The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
“I see,” quoth he, “the Elephant
Is very like a snake!”

The Fourth reached out his eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
“What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain,” quoth he;
“Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!”

The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: “E’en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!”

The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
“I see,” quoth he, “the Elephant
Is very like a rope!”

And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

MORAL

So, oft in theologic wars
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!

“There are not more than 100 people in the world who truly hate the Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they perceive to be the Catholic Church.” - Archbishop Fulton Sheen

This forum could engender so many more focused and fruitful conversations if non Catholic Christians interested to seriously engage with Catholics (for whatever reason) would read the Catechism of the Catholic Church (replete as it is with Scripture and the Church’s interpretation and application of it), and then base their questions, doubts, allegations and counter opinions around that.

Here: vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

Why, it might even induce some more Catholics to read their Catechism as well!

Nice poem Chris for the non catholics I agree, may I add good for the non christians of the world

Just curious as to why you did not advise reading the bible for truth?

Chris did you see my post to you #105?

God bless you

 

[mpjw2]

hi all

Do you all believe God is everyone’s eternal Father…

If so do you believe God speaks to all His children individually.

Do you believe God can communicate with an audible voice or spiritually or talking through someone we encouter when we least expect it.

Here is a true story

My wife sings in choir.
One sunday she was lying in bed and had a hard time getting up and thought about not going to church

As she was laying in bed, she heard God ask her “do you love me?”

my wife said “yes I do God”

God asked again “do you love me”

my wife said to Him…“ok God I will go to church and sing for you”

my question based on Pauls response a few posts back…

Why wouldn’t anyone want to listen to what God wants to say to His children?

here is a biblical love letter from God…be blessed by it
youtube.com/watch?v=BKmdIdQg3Ks

God bless you all

mpjw

 

[paul_c]

hi all

Do you all believe God is everyone’s eternal Father…

If so do you believe God speaks to all His children individually.

Do you believe God can communicate with an audible voice or spiritually or talking through someone we encouter when we least expect it.

Here is a true story

My wife sings in choir.
One sunday she was lying in bed and had a hard time getting up and thought about not going to church

As she was laying in bed, she heard God ask her “do you love me?”

my wife said “yes I do God”

God asked again “do you love me”

my wife said to Him…“ok God I will go to church and sing for you”

my question based on Pauls response a few posts back…

Why wouldn’t anyone want to listen to what God wants to say to His children?

here is a biblical love letter from God…be blessed by it
youtube.com/watch?v=BKmdIdQg3Ks

God bless you all

mpjw

Frankly, I don’t find the little voices in your head to be credible witnesses to the truth, particularly if those voices told you to abandon the sacraments and leave the church .

 

[fxcc]

hi all
Do you believe God can communicate with an audible voice or spiritually or talking through someone we encouter when we least expect it.
Why wouldn’t anyone want to listen to what God wants to say to His children?

God has a clear, loud and unmistakable voice.
It’s called the Catholic Church.
Many Christians hear “whispers in their heads” or “receive a word” of knowledge through someone or other at some time or other.
Some of these promptings are undoubtedly from the **Holy **Spirit - He roams where He will and uses who He will to proclaim His Word.
However, some are from other spirits (real, dangerous and ever active spirits), posing as the Holy one. Angels of darkness, posing as angels of light. Powers and principalities mimicking God.
This is why there are some 33,000 (?) so called Christian “churches” in the world today (in defiance of Christ’s explicit prayer for unity of His people), many with the most unbelievable doctrines which go against the core of God’s Word, founded on “spirit based” interpretations of Sacred Scripture. If **millions **can be deceived and sifted in this manner, so can you and I and anyone else, but for the grace of God. It’s just a simple fact of the spiritual life. To imagine otherwise is to kid yourself.
It is therefore only a **fool **who relies on his own counsel and his own presumed infallible discernment of these things.
Sit back for a minute and think of all the people in history who did the most stupid and atrocious things because they believed that “God” had spoken to them and told them to do what they did!
Sit back and reflect on what the serpent told Eve right at the beginning, when he cornered her alone in the Garden: “… your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as gods, knowing [the difference between] good and evil” [for yourself]. Remember? All she should have said was “Yeah, right” and fled back to her husband and God, but she didn’t. She hung around for a bite to eat, a pill to swallow. The rest is history.
So the **wise **ones among the hearers of voices and promptings today, having learned from what happened to Adam and Eve and so many others, **check **with the Church, or against the **Church’s **teachings, whatever they hear, or think they hear.
And no, the **wise **ones don’t merely go diving into the Good Book, acknowledging that in it there are “… some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” (2 Peter 3:16)
Indeed, this is **precisely **why God in His providence has thoughtfully provided His people with an **infallible **teaching and guiding Church - so that His people may not be led astray by the Father of Lies. Think about it. There has **never **been a **single **age in the **entire **history of humankind when our good God hasn’t provided His people with prophets and teachers and leaders to guide and shepherd them in His paths. Unfortunately, some people refused to listen to them in ages past and likewise, many refuse today. It’s always the same old same old.
If you claim, as you do, that “God” talked you out of the Catholic Church, His **only **Church, and advised you to seek salvation outside it, it’s a no brainer that it wasn’t God. Anything that contradicts or attempts to invalidate the teachings of God’s real and visible and tangible Church, including silly claims of some “invisible” other church out there, is a lie, courtesy the same ancient Liar from the Garden.
But I’ve already told you all this before. Sadly, you don’t appear to have, at this point in your life at least, the eyes to see and the ears to hear. Only the Holy Spirit can change that and I pray He will. Sometimes, in the ever mysterious workings of God, one has to become lost in order to find The Way! Then all of a sudden they spot a **true **Light on a Hill, and something in the brain goes Ping!

 

[fxcc]

Nice poem Chris for the non catholics I agree, may I add good for the non christians of the world

Just curious as to why you did not advise reading the bible for truth?

Chris did you see my post to you #105?

God bless you

Pretty much every Christian who comes to this forum reads the Bible.
That’s all too obvious from the volume of scripture quotes being used in these conversations.
What most don’t read is the Catechism of the Church, which would’ve answered most, if not all, of their questions about the Catholic faith before they even got here.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Beth, honestly, if you would accept God’s grace in your life through the sacraments, you would find that you sin less over time. Through the help of God’s grace, you can and will become increasingly holy. But you can not do it on your own. Its more than just believing that Jesus died for us. Its taking up your cross and following along and making your will correspond to his. That requires humility , love, and obedience and most of all, it requries the grace that comes from frequently partaking of the sacraments. I go to mass daily and it makes all the difference in the world. Try it, and you’ll understand.

You have no idea of how my life has changed since becoming a Christian by the grace of God; do you? The Sacraments you mention do not exist in Scripture except in the evolution of Catholicism and therefore cannot add what you might deem as “saving grace”. Saving grace comes from a true heart of repentance by faith alone when God imputes Jesus righteouness to my sin account, thus wiping it free and clear at the moment I truely believed and by the immersion of the Holy Spirit I am being sanctified and conformed to the image of Christ until I meet the Lord when I will shed this body of flesh and be fully redeemed just as God has promised to those who walk and trust by faith.
God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith.

***But by His doing *you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,/I]

In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

External activities do not add anything to salvation as repeated over and over again in Scripture, but are counted as wages that are due according to Scripture.

*** Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a grace, but as what is due.*** 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

You seem to believe that you can do cooperative works and gain salvation; that is fine for you, but doesn’t work for me for it is not what the Apostles, prophets or the Lord has taught and I am Scripture loving God fearing Christian who rejects the works based salvation of any kind because of what I read in Scripture. Works are the fruit produced by the regenerated “new nature” wrought by Christ Himself and not because of any performance on my part but because of the kindness and goodness of God as the Scripture teaches.

***22 Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls ***for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart, 23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, {that is,} through the living and enduring word of God.

Sins actually seem larger than ever before because once regenerated the smallest sin seems bigger whereas before I would not have thought twice about it. So the direction is to sin less and less and the sensitivity toward sin is greater and greater; isn’t that how it should be? Is this not evidence of a regenerate person? This is my experience, what is your experience and how have the performance of the Sacraments drawn you closer to the Lord and helped you deal with sin and how has your pattern of sin changed?

I do not adhere to your belief in the Sacraments or condemn you for your beliefs for we all have beliefs to which will be determined by God as genuine or not. i also know that in God’s kindness and His tender mercies He will have both Catholics and non-Catholics that are attached to Christianity with Him forever; hopefully we both agree on this point.**

 

[Beth_Martin]

Notice the words "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me"
That is the entire reason why no one can snatch them out of the Father’s hand. You see, so long as you cling to Christ, you can’t be touched. How does one cling to Christ. By doing His Will of course. By loving God with all his heart, mind and soul. Obeying all the commandments. You can’t do this when you sin therefore you have been snatched out of His hand each and every time till you repent. And since you do not do it the proper way through one of His Priests, then we can’t even be sure you’ve ever been forgiven since your Bapism.

I have no clue who you learned your osas doctrine off of but it’s not something you came up with all by yourself. You were schooled by the internet perhaps or a friend who lead you in that direction. You are allowing your faulty premise to interpret every scriptural verse thrown at you that opposes your belief. You continue to make yourself to be an infallible interpreter of Scripture even if you say otherwise.

Des, You have no idea, except what is taught by your church on the nature of sin and how God has dealt with the sins of the true repentant Christian. I do not need to go to a Catholic priest for that is contrary to the Word of God. There is one intercessor between man and God and that is Jesus Christ. No one comes to the Father except through the Son. etc. In my opinion this idea of a confessional that evolved over time a form of disobedience to the command of Christ, that is my opinion based on what I read in Scripture. I can’t even find anything that remotely suggests going to a priest to ask God for forgiveness. Why was the Holy of Holys opened at His death? So all man could have direct access to God and not through a human agency as in the past; that was the purpose as to why the temple was rent open as Christ gave up His spirit. What did Jesus answer the disciples that asked them how to pray. Pray like this “Our Father who is in Heaven…” not "

The only one who accuse me of being an infallible interpreter of Scripture are Catholics; anyone including myself knows that there is one infallible interpreter of Scripture, which is the Holy Spirit who is given to those who come to Jesus with a true heart of repentance by faith in His promises through His death, burial and resurrection. It is the work of the Holy Spirt to lead all Christians into the truth and the more one reads and obeys the more blessed and the more Truth that is revealed to each individual.

I understand the importance you and others put on Sacraments of your religion and I respect that for who am I to say you are wrong? I can only go by what I believe is contained in the Scriptures and obey as much as possible. Whenever I see any of you write you must obey the commandments; I chuckle because the two commandments that Christ gave are the summary of the OT commandments, which no one is able to keep which is the point of the law to show that you are sinners incapable of keeping them and why we need a Savior and without that Savior to cover our transgressions, then no one will be in heaven. Thanks be to God both Catholics and non-Catholics will be in heaven based on faith alone in Christ alone from a true and genuine heart of repentance. Hopefully we both agree that both will be in heaven even if we disagree on the means.

 

[mpjw2]

Pretty much every Christian who comes to this forum reads the Bible.
That’s all too obvious from the volume of scripture quotes being used in these conversations.
What most don’t read is the Catechism of the Church, which would’ve answered most, if not all, of their questions about the Catholic faith before they even got here.

you missing my point Chris…

Chris, you said a prayer the other day on this thread which was as sincere as sincere can get…

Did you believe in your heart immediately after you said that prayer God gave you want you asked for to be perfect again?..

Make me perfect, as you are perfect

and Chris if you were to die right then and there at that precise moment after your prayer…is there any doubt in your mind of your eternal destination?

thank you

mpjw

 

[paul_c]

You have no idea of how my life has changed since becoming a Christian by the grace of God; do you?

No, but I assume for the better since you are so passionate. But I assure you, there is more…

The Sacraments you mention do not exist in Scripture except in the evolution of Catholicism and therefore cannot add what you might deem as “saving grace”.

Come on Beth, the sacraments are all over scripture. The new testament starts out with the story of John the Baptist and Jesus’ own baptism. The conclusion of Matthew’s Gospel, (28: 18-20) includes Jesus’ commission to baptize all the nation. In Acts 2, Peter tells the first converts that they must be baptized. IN John 6, we are told that we must eat the body and drink the blood of Jesus to have life within us. In Titus and Timothy, they discuss ordination with the laying on of hands. Jesus’ first miracle was at a wedding…

Saving grace comes from a true heart of repentance by faith alone when God imputes Jesus righteouness to my sin account, thus wiping it free and clear at the moment I truely believed and by the immersion of the Holy Spirit I am being sanctified and conformed to the image of Christ until I meet the Lord when I will shed this body of flesh and be fully redeemed just as God has promised to those who walk and trust by faith.

If you had faith enough to move mountains, but don’t have love, you are nothing… (1corinthians 13), Faith without works is dead (James 2)

God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith.

***But by His doing ***you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,/I]

In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

External activities do not add anything to salvation as repeated over and over again in Scripture, but are counted as wages that are due according to Scripture.

*** Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a grace, but as what is due.*** 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
Beth, unfortunately you have been decieved into believing in sola fide. This is the context under which you should understand that passage. We are not to work for wages, but out of love. doing what we do without expecting anything in return. When we learn to love like that, we will become holy.
Beth Martin;6632159:

You seem to believe that you can do cooperative works and gain salvation; that is fine for you, but doesn’t work for me for it is not what the Apostles, prophets or the Lord has taught and I am Scripture loving God fearing Christian who rejects the works based salvation of any kind because of what I read in Scripture. Works are the fruit produced by the regenerated “new nature” wrought by Christ Himself and not because of any performance on my part but because of the kindness and goodness of God as the Scripture teaches.

Beth, we need to love. And that means doing things for God and Neighbor without expecting anything back. It is only through love that you can be saved. That is what Jesus taught. Remember, his death on the cross was an act of LOVE for sinful man. We need to follow him and also love. Faith without love is just empty words .

***22 Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls ***

for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart, 23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, {that is,} through the living and enduring word of God.
See, this is exactly what is being said above. You need to love. Faith is not enough.

 

[paul_c]

Sins actually seem larger than ever before because once regenerated the smallest sin seems bigger whereas before I would not have thought twice about it. So the direction is to sin less and less and the sensitivity toward sin is greater and greater; isn’t that how it should be? Is this not evidence of a regenerate person? This is my experience, what is your experience and how have the performance of the Sacraments drawn you closer to the Lord and helped you deal with sin and how has your pattern of sin changed?

I do not adhere to your belief in the Sacraments or condemn you for your beliefs for we all have beliefs to which will be determined by God as genuine or not. i also know that in God’s kindness and His tender mercies He will have both Catholics and non-Catholics that are attached to Christianity with Him forever; hopefully we both agree on this point.

Okay. I will give you my personal witness. About 10 years ago, I went to confession and the priest told me to go to a weekday mass as my penance. I was nervous about this because I had never been to anything other than a weekend mass and didn’t know what to expect. But I went and then I went again , and again and again until I reached the point of going to mass every day. I increased my reading of the bible from 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 and now 5 chapters daily. I started teaching CCD (religious education) and reading the lives of the saints. I began to take part in the Catholic devotions : the rosary, the stations of the cross, the miraculous medal novenas and ultimately, eucharistic adoration. I began to witness on the internet and in the local men’s group. All along the way, my prayer life increased and yes, I too became more aware of my sins and deficiencies, which allowed me to make the necessary adjustments. ( a process that continues of course).