SPLIT: Human conscience is inviolate?

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wisedom

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hi
in cases where there is confusion, it is better to go with our CONSCIENCE; where there is conflict between one’s conscience and the teaching of the Church, we are entitled to listen to (obey) our conscience, for the former (conscience) never errs, being the VOICE OF GOD, within us.
one must also take into account and believe in the indefatigable and limitless mercy of God and not worry too much about doubts about mortal sin.

dominic.
 
wisedom said:
hi
in cases where there is confusion, it is better to go with our CONSCIENCE; where there is conflict between one’s conscience and the teaching of the Church, we are entitled to listen to (obey) our conscience, for the former (conscience) never errs, being the VOICE OF GOD, within us.
one must also take into account and believe in the indefatigable and limitless mercy of God and not worry too much about doubts about mortal sin.

dominic.
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We should follow our conscience, BUT we are obliged to form our conscience to be in accord with the Church. If our conscience tells us that something is morally right and the Church says that it is morally wrong, we should NOT follow our conscience, but obey the Church, since we are not infallible. Of course our conscience can err. Because of our sinfulness we can distort our conscience. We can even kill it entirely!
 
the conscience being GOD’S VOICE WITHIN US can never be distorted or killed…of course we can over-rule our conscience by rationalising or justifying our wrong doing, in which case the conscience is buried under a debris…it is still alive all through our life…if i am not mistaken, a writer joseph murphy states that subconsious, heart, conscience are all the same thing…FROM CONCEPTION TO DEATH IT IS ALIVE!

in the church laws, there is a clause to the effect that in individual cases our conscience will prevail over the particular law; it is only if the person knows fully that his sin is mortal, will it be dangerous to his soul; and here we cannot hope to limit or fully comprehend the limitless or indefatigable MERCY OF GOD.

THE CHURCH DESPITE HER INFALLIBILITY IS GUILTY OF MANY ERRORS OF OMMISSION OR COMMISION DOWN THE AGES, WHICH PROMPTED THE THEN POPE TO GO DOWN ON HIS KNEES BEFORE THE WHOLE WORLD AND SEEK PARDON IN THE NAME OF JESUS.

I may well add, that the clergy have been found guilty of heinous crimes in spite of their high calling, and the sins of the laity pale in comparison to them

ty

dominic.
 
Joan M:
We should follow our conscience, BUT we are obliged to form our conscience to be in accord with the Church.
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I wonder why I recall Henry Ford’s famous saying: “You can buy a car of any color, as long as it is black”.
 
the conscience being GOD’S VOICE WITHIN US can never be distorted or killed
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That is a distortion of what the conscience is.

It is not God’s voice withing us. It is our one thoughts, our on understanding, of what the right thing to do is.

It’s true the Holy Spirit within us pushes us a little, or else nobody could move towards God. But the Holy Spirit doesn’t choose our thoughts for us or make our judgements for us. We do that.

If the conscience was God’s voice withing us we would never sin, since the soul always wants to do what will lead to salvation or at least make it possible. And so, Aquinas said the conscience never errs in choosing what it thinks is right, but the reason can falsely believe what is right or wrong.
 
wisedom said:
hi
in cases where there is confusion, it is better to go with our CONSCIENCE; where there is conflict between one’s conscience and the teaching of the Church, we are entitled to listen to (obey) our conscience, for the former (conscience) never errs, being the VOICE OF GOD, within us.
one must also take into account and believe in the indefatigable and limitless mercy of God and not worry too much about doubts about mortal sin.

dominic.
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Such would not refect the correct approach or understanding.
 
wisedom said:
where there is conflict between one’s conscience and the teaching of the Church.
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If such would be the case – it would not be a conflict between the conscience of a Catholic and the Teaching of the Church.

It would be a division or conflict within the persons conscience.
 
empther said:
That is a distortion of what the conscience is.

It is not God’s voice withing us. It is our one thoughts, our on understanding, of what the right thing to do is.

It’s true the Holy Spirit within us pushes us a little, or else nobody could move towards God. But the Holy Spirit doesn’t choose our thoughts for us or make our judgements for us. We do that.

If the conscience was God’s voice withing us we would never sin, since the soul always wants to do what will lead to salvation or at least make it possible. And so, Aquinas said the conscience never errs in choosing what it thinks is right, but the reason can falsely believe what is right or wrong.
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i wonder who titled my response as “human conscience”…do we have a human truth or TRUTH? TRUTH is One, whereas we each have our own concept or view of truth, which differs from person to person; we follow our truth while discarding the divine Truth…
so also we follow our own conscience, while discarding the one CONSCIENCE, THE VOICE OF GOD WITHIN US; we have to distinguish between our subconscious (conscience) and our conscious mind; the subconscious is the Truth or knows only the Truth, whereas our conscious is Reason and is subject to errors; if the latter is subordinate to the subconscious, we will be acting righteously, but we do not because the reasoning mind is allowed to control the subconscious…
so by human conscience we imply that whatever we say or do is right and our “reason” is the conscience, but when we obey what our heart/subconscious/unconscious/conscience/voice of God says, then we will be acting righteously , and that may well be called DIVINE CONSCIENCE, so to speak.
so just as there is but One TRUTH, there is only One Conscience and that is connected to Infinite Intelligence or Wisdom, or as we call it, GOD.

Note: as i am typing it extempore, it is likely i am not expressing myself clearly, besides it is now 1 a.m. which is quite early in the day!..so any errors or ambiguity is regretted, for now.
 
“If the conscience was God’s voice withing us we would never sin, since the soul always wants to do what will lead to salvation or at least make it possible. And so, Aquinas said the conscience never errs in choosing what it thinks is right, but the reason can falsely believe what is right or wrong.”
from dominic

don’t you know that God’s Word is engraved on our hearts within…in the OT the commandments were engraved on stone, whereas post Jesus Christ the commandment of LOVE is engraved within our hearts…so since the soul always want to do what will lead to salvation, why do we disobey the Word or Will of God with impunity?..Food for Thought!

don’t we have the God given right to choose between Righteousness and Evil?..perhaps that is why many choose the latter and only a few choose the former…we go by our Reason and not by Truth! and GOD IS TRUTH…JESUS IS THE TRUTH!
 
wisedom said:
from dominic

don’t you know that God’s Word is engraved on our hearts within…in the OT the commandments were engraved on stone, whereas post Jesus Christ the commandment of LOVE is engraved within our hearts…

Yes but we still need that renewal of our mind that Paul speaks of --which involves both the Holy Spirit and our effort by grace and God has given us the Church to teach …and the command to teach…to make us disciples and teach us as Jesus tells us in the Gospels.

so since the soul always want to do what will lead to salvation, why do we disobey the Word or Will of God with impunity?..Food for Thought!
Due to sin …and the effects of original sin yes we do sin…and need forgiveness and at times restoration to Grace.

don’t we have the God given right to choose between Righteousness and Evil?..

We have the ability …but not the right --no one has a right to eveil – we have free with to love
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wisedom said:
i wonder who titled my response as “human conscience”…do we have a human truth or TRUTH? TRUTH is One, whereas we each have our own concept or view of truth, which differs from person to person; we follow our truth while discarding the divine Truth…
so also we follow our own conscience, while discarding the one CONSCIENCE, THE VOICE OF GOD WITHIN US; we have to distinguish between our subconscious (conscience) and our conscious mind; the subconscious is the Truth or knows only the Truth, whereas our conscious is Reason and is subject to errors; if the latter is subordinate to the subconscious, we will be acting righteously, but we do not because the reasoning mind is allowed to control the subconscious…
so by human conscience we imply that whatever we say or do is right and our “reason” is the conscience, but when we obey what our heart/subconscious/unconscious/conscience/voice of God says, then we will be acting righteously , and that may well be called DIVINE CONSCIENCE, so to speak.
so just as there is but One TRUTH, there is only One Conscience and that is connected to Infinite Intelligence or Wisdom, or as we call it, GOD.

Note: as i am typing it extempore, it is likely i am not expressing myself clearly, besides it is now 1 a.m. which is quite early in the day!..so any errors or ambiguity is regretted, for now.
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We are to conform ourselves …and our conscience to truth (form our conscience according to the Truth…by the Truth…that renewal of the mind Paul speaks of). The truth that God has revealed and we find in Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Teachings of the Church Jesus Christ has formed.
 
These kinds of sentiments (which are encountered practically everywhere) is exactly why I find the CCC worse than useless for the vast majority of people.
 
wisedom said:
hi
in cases where there is confusion, it is better to go with our CONSCIENCE; where there is conflict between one’s conscience and the teaching of the Church, we are entitled to listen to (obey) our conscience, for the former (conscience) never errs, being the VOICE OF GOD, within us.
one must also take into account and believe in the indefatigable and limitless mercy of God and not worry too much about doubts about mortal sin.

dominic.
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Wisedome,

Wise up. Your conscience is not static. It is dynamic. How do you suppose that the conscience can do anything unless it is fed, exercised, and grows. Read your Catechism. When you rely on your conscience it presupposes that you are constantly forming it and the conscience you rely on is a “formed conscience”.

PART THREE
LIFE IN CHRIST

SECTION ONE
MAN’S VOCATION LIFE IN THE SPIRIT

CHAPTER ONE
THE DIGNITY OF THE HUMAN PERSON

ARTICLE 6
MORAL CONSCIENCE
II. THE FORMATION OF CONSCIENCE
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1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.
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1784 The education of the conscience is a lifelong task. From the earliest years, it awakens the child to the knowledge and practice of the interior law recognized by conscience. Prudent education teaches virtue; it prevents or cures fear, selfishness and pride, resentment arising from guilt, and feelings of complacency, born of human weakness and faults. The education of the conscience guarantees freedom and engenders peace of heart.
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1785 In the formation of conscience the Word of God is the light for our path,54 we must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. We must also examine our conscience before the Lord’s Cross. We are assisted by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, aided by the witness or advice of others and guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church.55
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wisedom said:
i wonder who titled my response as “human conscience”…do we have a human truth or TRUTH? TRUTH is One, whereas we each have our own concept or view of truth, which differs from person to person; we follow our truth while discarding the divine Truth…
so also we follow our own conscience, while discarding the one CONSCIENCE, THE VOICE OF GOD WITHIN US; we have to distinguish between our subconscious (conscience) and our conscious mind; the subconscious is the Truth or knows only the Truth, whereas our conscious is Reason and is subject to errors; if the latter is subordinate to the subconscious, we will be acting righteously, but we do not because the reasoning mind is allowed to control the subconscious…
so by human conscience we imply that whatever we say or do is right and our “reason” is the conscience, but when we obey what our heart/subconscious/unconscious/conscience/voice of God says, then we will be acting righteously , and that may well be called DIVINE CONSCIENCE, so to speak.
so just as there is but One TRUTH, there is only One Conscience and that is connected to Infinite Intelligence or Wisdom, or as we call it, GOD.

Note: as i am typing it extempore, it is likely i am not expressing myself clearly, besides it is now 1 a.m. which is quite early in the day!..so any errors or ambiguity is regretted, for now.
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Wisedom,

Can you summarize in a few senteces what it is you are trying to say?
 
I believe that what Wisedom is saying is that we all possess 2 levels of mind, conscious and subconscious. Our conscious mind is the seat of reason and is prone to errors and distortion of the truth. Our subconscious mind is not singular, but rather is a part of, or is tapped into, a universal subconscious mind. This collective mind being the infinite mind of God. It binds us to God as well as every other person in that we are all just a part of the One Mind which is God. By operating at this level of consciousness when making decisions, we are being guided by the one, single truth. When operating at the level of conscious mind, we are separate from this One Mind of God and therefore prone to error in our judgements. In this light, I would have to assume that the forming of conscience is a training of the conscious mind to reflect, or be in sync with the truth known inherently at the subconscious level.
 
Rudy_Baga said:
I believe that what Wisedom is saying is that we all possess 2 levels of mind, conscious and subconscious. Our conscious mind is the seat of reason and is prone to errors and distortion of the truth. Our subconscious mind is not singular, but rather is a part of, or is tapped into, a universal subconscious mind. This collective mind being the infinite mind of God. It binds us to God as well as every other person in that we are all just a part of the One Mind which is God. By operating at this level of consciousness when making decisions, we are being guided by the one, single truth. When operating at the level of conscious mind, we are separate from this One Mind of God and therefore prone to error in our judgements. In this light, I would have to assume that the forming of conscience is a training of the conscious mind to reflect, or be in sync with the truth known inherently at the subconscious level.
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to rudy baga
i believe you have been able to express my ‘thinking’ most profoundly and explicitly for the benefit of those following this thread, especially coptic christian; i could not have explained to him/her with greater clarity, except to refer you’ll to Joseph Murphy’s , “the power of your subconscious mind”
the author compares the synchronization of the conscious with the subconscious and/or unconscious with “where two or three are gathered/united in my name, there I AM”…

thank you
dominic.
 
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Bookcat:
actually i was responding in relation to a “boarder’s”, ‘ARTICLE’, so the questions or replies were directed to her/him…
anyway, i understand that we have the FREEDOM to choose GOD or the devil (evil), just as the devils had earlier…
finallly, to be brief, WHO IS THE CHURCH?
 
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