Split: If you are addicted, is it a sin?

[CopticChristian]

CopticChristian,

Yes, we do agree on much. We do agree that Christianity is the true religion, and that sin and salvation cannot be replaced by addiction and recovery, however I must take issue with some of your key assumptions and arguments about 12-step programs, and, particularly, whether they (your assumptions and arguments) have any greater weight than being just your opinion.

You think A.A. is a religion. Fine. The Supreme Court thinks AA is a religion? I doubt it, but even if it’s so then that’s also fine by me. You and (possibly) the supreme court are both wrong. A.A. is not “a religion” in any normal understanding of the term - it is, in it’s own words, a “spiritual” program. It is a spiritual program with a purpose, namely to help alcoholics stop drinking. It does not have any religious purpose, nor any religious doctrines, other than this.

Statistics about the success rate of A.A are not relevant. It does work for many people - many people who credit it with saving their life. That’s enough.

The core of the spiritual program is admitting powerlessness, and turning one’s life and will over to the “God of our understanding”. This is not 'a religion" which is incompatible with Catholicism. A Catholic attends and his “God of his understanding” is God as revealed through Jesus Christ and the Catholic Church. He does not have to compromise any of this in working the 12-steps, nor subscribe to any non-Catholic beliefs or fellowship. He is a Catholic first, and an A.A member second.

You personally seem to have the opinion that this admission of “powerlessness” is not compatible with Catholicism. Again, fine. However, it’s just your opinion. In the meantime, A.A has been around for 70 years. Numerous members of the clergy have been and are members and are members and numerous others have endorsed it for the Catholic Alcoholics in their pastoral care. The Church has never condemned it, nor commented on the “powerlessness”" admission, or any of the other twelve steps.

As a brief aside, you compare A.A with other non-Catholic religions, such as JW’s, noting that silence by the Church is not endorsement. The big difference is that no Catholic clergy publicly endorse JW, or recommend it for those in their pastoral care. A.A is in the Catholic church, significantly, in a way that JW’s are not. So, the silence to date is significant.

So, you can keep your opinions. I think they are wrong. But, I don’t particularly care.You should however have the restraint to admit that they are just your opinions, and not direct Church teaching. I say “direct” to acknowledge that your argument is derived, in part, from sound Catholic teaching, however it is still only an argument. It is not infallible, and the conclusions are not binding on anyone else until they are embodied in direct Church teaching, in the form of a document from the Bishops with a statement such as “No individual is ever powerless over addiction”, or, “12 step programs are a religion” or, even, to paraphrase the one you like “12-step programs involve a rejection of the language of sin and salvation, replacing it with the morally neutral language of addiction and recovery” .

Edmundus,

You may want to review all the Circuit Court rulings on AA and I found this…a book I may purchase to support my beliefs…The Book That Started it All, available on Amazon here.

amazon.com/Book-That-Started-All-Manuscript/dp/159285947X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1346734509&sr=1-1&keywords=book+that+started+it+all

I suggest you and the 3000 viewers of this post read all the comments about this book…in particular what Dick B. says…he has been referenced in this thread…

washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/21/AR2010092106531.html

AA original manuscript reveals profound debate over religion

By Michelle Boorstein
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, September 22, 2010; 10:59 AM

But the crossed-out phrases and scribbles make clear that the words easily could have read differently. And the edits embody a debate that continues today: How should the role of spirituality and religion be handled in addiction treatment?

abcnews.go.com/US/alcoholics-anonymous-original-manuscript-bill-wilsons-big-book/story?id=11712226

But it turns out that the original manuscript, written in 1939 by AA co-founder Bill Wilson, was heavily edited to make it less religious and more welcoming to people who did not consider themselves Christians. The original is being published next week as “The Book That Started it All.”

Sample shown here…

abcnews.go.com/Site/page?id=11712542

practicalrecovery.com/pr/in-the-media/aa-original-manuscript-reveals-profound-debate-over-religion/

“Wilson was divided, too,” on how to talk about God in the Big Book, Farrar said. “But it’s not generally known that there was a debate about religion.”

Faith Based Treatment? Did I say religion?

As word is beginning to get out about the manuscript, some see fuel for the current fight about faith-based treatment and whether it’s more effective.

Jack Cowley, a former prison warden who worked with AA for decades and now helps run faith-based prison programs, said the manuscript reflects “a cop-out” on Wilson’s part, to make an inherently religious process “the least confrontational.”

“The power is in the understanding of how Christ can apply these [steps],” Cowley said. “It’s the scripture where the power is, it’s not AA. . . . This is the same thing we’re doing today. We’re downplaying the faith issue to get more people.”

One of my favorite books is More Revealed that discusses some of my findings…

 

[johnnyjones]

Johnny,

You focus on yourself, what someone else has done and all that is not helpful to what is helpful. Perhaps you and others are at the end of the spectrum, I don’t know, but it is not the world experience. Anyone reading from a distance would think “Oh my, drinking is so bad, just look at these people that shun drinking and tell others to do so”…I said that Peele stumbled on the notion that values are important in resovling addiction and paralleled that with “human effort” towards strengthening our virtues and habits…rather than the end of the spectrum what about what could be learned…

Peele, The Truth About Addiction…

1. M.L. Barnett, “Alcoholism in the Cantonese of New York City: An Anthropological Study,” in O. Diethelm, ed., Etiology of Chronic Alcoholism (Springfield, IL: Charles C. Thomas, 1955), 179–227.
2. Ibid., 186–7.

So what can we learn from this?

As Catholics we can have our children read the Catechism, instruct them that there are such things as virtues, explain that there is such a thing as human effort to make them stronger to have the means to resist temptation and then we can model the behavior as noted in the Chinese community and not tolerate people that drink heavily in the community and explain that this is error in habit that is seen with someone that lacks the necessary values and virtues…for the

sin of addiction…

“A dog returns to his vomit”. Are you actually trying to say that verse does not advocate returning to sin? You start your sentence with “you focus on yourself” which excludes all that goes on outside of what I have experienced and seen. This is not some “me only” view as you want to imply. Just as you point to some who have returned to drinking, I point to those who can not due so.

To continually go so far as to say anyone should be able to go back to the sin that has nearly destroyed them remains irresponsible. Showing that Peele can speak to cultural issues about alcohol adds nothing to the discussion. Both you and him take on a religious zeal of your own in regards to moderate drinking and the wonders of alcohol.

Your aspousing the same broad brush ideas on the opposite side of the spectrum that you claim others are fanatical about.

 

[CopticChristian]

“A dog returns to his vomit”. Are you actually trying to say that verse does not advocate returning to sin? You start your sentence with “you focus on yourself” which excludes all that goes on outside of what I have experienced and seen. This is not some “me only” view as you want to imply. Just as you point to some who have returned to drinking, I point to those who can not due so.

To continually go so far as to say anyone should be able to go back to the sin that has nearly destroyed them remains irresponsible. Showing that Peele can speak to cultural issues about alcohol adds nothing to the discussion. Both you and him take on a religious zeal of your own in regards to moderate drinking and the wonders of alcohol.

Your aspousing the same broad brush ideas on the opposite side of the spectrum that you claim others are fanatical about.

Johnny,

The entire Proverb you quote one section from is preceeded by exhortations about a fool…you can believe what you want to believe…

Similitudes, Instructions

1Like snow in summer and like rain in harvest,
So honor is not fitting for a fool.
2Like a sparrow in its flitting, like a swallow in its flying,
So a curse without cause does not alight.

3A whip is for the horse, a bridle for the donkey,
And a rod for the back of fools.

4Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
Or you will also be like him.

5Answer a fool as his folly deserves,
That he not be wise in his own eyes.

6He cuts off his own feet and drinks violence
Who sends a message by the hand of a fool.

7Like the legs which are useless to the lame,
So is a proverb in the mouth of fools.

8Like one who binds a stone in a sling,
So is he who gives honor to a fool.

9Like a thorn which falls into the hand of a drunkard,
So is a proverb in the mouth of fools.

10Like an archer who wounds everyone,
So is he who hires a fool or who hires those who pass by.

a dog returning to his vomit is a simile that is preceded by other similes about what a fool is like. A person that is a Glutton, drinking to excess, sinning and getting addicted by his own actions would be considered a fool. The Fool is the addict who fails to recognize that those actions lead to destruction.

You can infer it means whatever you want it to say. I have never said that you should do anything. I have explained that there is experience other than yours that speaks to situations other than yours.

Alcohol is a beverage
Alcohol is not illegal
Some people drink regularly
Some people drink regularly never have problems
Some people drink regularly, lose their jobs, their families, and drinking becomes a problem
Some people drink irresponsibly and never learn to drink responsibly
Some people drink irresponsibly and learn to drink responsibly
Some people drink regularly and never return to drink
Some people drink regularly, stop and then return to drink less

You have this black and white religion of AA mentality that has you either drink or you don’t and if you ever drank irresponsibly then there is only one alternative…and you need to know that is only for some and that some includes you…

You suggest that pointing out that there are cultures that teach responsible drinking adds nothing. I am showing you and others that Peele stumbled on something that may prevent others from falling into sin. You believe that exhortation to drink responsibly is adding nothing. You may want to think about that a little bit. What is it you think adds to the discussion about sin. It took some time for you and others to agree that addiction is sin. The discussion has been difficult at best to have acceptance that Gluttony is nothing more than equivalent to addiction and addiction is sin.

drinking is not sinful

Once diseased always diseased
Once a dog always a dog

So according to the relgion of 12 steps AA/disease model…an addict is a dog and if the addict drinks again he is returning to his vomit. You are told you have a disease. You are a dog. You spend 50 years going to meetings telling people you are a dog, believe you are a dog, stop going to your vomit, and forever and a day you are a dog or a fool. This is what is wrong with an attempt to label someone by their behavior.

The Peele/Catholic paradigm is that you are a fool…change your behavior and then you are no longer a fool, get some values/virtue and then you don’t act like a fool. Since you are no longer a fool/dog then there is no actions that lead to this returning to vomit…since what you spew is not foolishness.

How about once a fool not always a fool…that is where your paradigm shades your outlook

drinking to excess that causes addiction is sin…

 

[johnnyjones]

Johnny,

The entire Proverb you quote one section from is preceeded by exhortations about a fool…you can believe what you want to believe…

a dog returning to his vomit is a simile that is preceded by other similes about what a fool is like. A person that is a Glutton, drinking to excess, sinning and getting addicted by his own actions would be considered a fool. The Fool is the addict who fails to recognize that those actions lead to destruction.

You can infer it means whatever you want it to say. I have never said that you should do anything. I have explained that there is experience other than yours that speaks to situations other than yours.

Alcohol is a beverage
Alcohol is not illegal
Some people drink regularly
Some people drink regularly never have problems
Some people drink regularly, lose their jobs, their families, and drinking becomes a problem
Some people drink irresponsibly and never learn to drink responsibly
Some people drink irresponsibly and learn to drink responsibly
Some people drink regularly and never return to drink
Some people drink regularly, stop and then return to drink less

You have this black and white religion of AA mentality that has you either drink or you don’t and if you ever drank irresponsibly then there is only one alternative…and you need to know that is only for some and that some includes you…

You suggest that pointing out that there are cultures that teach responsible drinking adds nothing. I am showing you and others that Peele stumbled on something that may prevent others from falling into sin. You believe that exhortation to drink responsibly is adding nothing. You may want to think about that a little bit. What is it you think adds to the discussion about sin. It took some time for you and others to agree that addiction is sin. The discussion has been difficult at best to have acceptance that Gluttony is nothing more than equivalent to addiction and addiction is sin.

drinking is not sinful

Once diseased always diseased
Once a dog always a dog

So according to the relgion of 12 steps AA/disease model…an addict is a dog and if the addict drinks again he is returning to his vomit. You are told you have a disease. You are a dog. You spend 50 years going to meetings telling people you are a dog, believe you are a dog, stop going to your vomit, and forever and a day you are a dog or a fool. This is what is wrong with an attempt to label someone by their behavior.

The Peele/Catholic paradigm is that you are a fool…change your behavior and then you are no longer a fool, get some values/virtue and then you don’t act like a fool. Since you are no longer a fool/dog then there is no actions that lead to this returning to vomit…since what you spew is not foolishness.

How about once a fool not always a fool…that is where your paradigm shades your outlook

drinking to excess that causes addiction is sin…

There is no inference. The verse means exactly what it says and it is not out out context. You are seriously playing word games. This verse ha been used by Christendom for ages to show that it is folly to return to what has hurt you.

You are unable to drop the AA condemnation for one second and can not even see that I am not a proponent of AA, although it has some tools to help individuals. Mormons don’t have the full truth among many religions but they can still ascribe to not cheating , stealing, murdering etc. based on elements of truth.

Again, I don’t think you read my posts.

You and I were originally debating “habit vs’ addiction” not sin as addiction.
Post #51- I said “disease” is used too loosley.

Post #52- I said “addiction” is used too loosely.

Post#77- I never said it was a “disease”

After these posts you and I started to discuss addiction as a sin. In post #95, I said “the sin of addiction”. Because I know that when it is carried out, it is sin. Just like when homosexuality is carried out (acted on) it is sin. Just claiming to have an addiction but restraining yourself is not sinful.

 

[clem456]

One of the central tenets of Christianity is dying to one’s self, surrendering the willful pride that we all have to be conformed to Christ. Christ is the only way, willpower is a deception, as we see in lesson #1 in the garden. Chrsit is the only power, our wills are only good if they are surrendered to Him. Addicts need to keep this in mind more than others. Our wills are currupted from the repeated practice of vice, as well as physical and emotional cravings and dependence. The will is corrupted, more so than a non-addict. Why would anyone try to shape iron using a wet noodle?

Addicts: Surrender the will to Christ. Work a program with others. Get help, not half measures of moderation that almost universally never work. I hope you have the wisdom to ignore some of the irresponsible opinions you have seen here.

Help does not mean just helping yourself in isolation, it means getting help, from other people who have been there. Getting help does not mean promising to use your favorite vice in moderation, according to your own willpower. Don’t deceive yourself. If you are an addict, believing in moderation is one more step to spiritual and possibly physical death.

 

[Christmastwin]

One of the central tenets of Christianity is dying to one’s self, surrendering the willful pride that we all have to be conformed to Christ. Christ is the only way, willpower is a deception, as we see in lesson #1 in the garden. Chrsit is the only power, our wills are only good if they are surrendered to Him. Addicts need to keep this in mind more than others. Our wills are currupted from the repeated practice of vice, as well as physical and emotional cravings and dependence. The will is corrupted, more so than a non-addict. Why would anyone try to shape iron using a wet noodle?

Addicts: Surrender the will to Christ. Work a program with others. Get help, not half measures of moderation that almost universally never work. I hope you have the wisdom to ignore some of the irresponsible opinions you have seen here.

Help does not mean just helping yourself in isolation, it means getting help, from other people who have been there. Getting help does not mean promising to use your favorite vice in moderation, according to your own willpower. Don’t deceive yourself. If you are an addict, believing in moderation is one more step to spiritual and possibly physical death.

Me like this one.

 

[acacia12]

One of the central tenets of Christianity is dying to one’s self, surrendering the willful pride that we all have to be conformed to Christ. Christ is the only way, willpower is a deception, as we see in lesson #1 in the garden. Chrsit is the only power, our wills are only good if they are surrendered to Him. Addicts need to keep this in mind more than others. Our wills are currupted from the repeated practice of vice, as well as physical and emotional cravings and dependence. The will is corrupted, more so than a non-addict. Why would anyone try to shape iron using a wet noodle?

Addicts: Surrender the will to Christ. Work a program with others. Get help, not half measures of moderation that almost universally never work. I hope you have the wisdom to ignore some of the irresponsible opinions you have seen here.

Help does not mean just helping yourself in isolation, it means getting help, from other people who have been there. Getting help does not mean promising to use your favorite vice in moderation, according to your own willpower. Don’t deceive yourself. If you are an addict, believing in moderation is one more step to spiritual and possibly physical death.

I like this one too!

 

[johnnyjones]

One of the central tenets of Christianity is dying to one’s self, surrendering the willful pride that we all have to be conformed to Christ. Christ is the only way, willpower is a deception, as we see in lesson #1 in the garden. Chrsit is the only power, our wills are only good if they are surrendered to Him. Addicts need to keep this in mind more than others. Our wills are currupted from the repeated practice of vice, as well as physical and emotional cravings and dependence. The will is corrupted, more so than a non-addict. Why would anyone try to shape iron using a wet noodle?

Addicts: Surrender the will to Christ. Work a program with others. Get help, not half measures of moderation that almost universally never work. I hope you have the wisdom to ignore some of the irresponsible opinions you have seen here.

Help does not mean just helping yourself in isolation, it means getting help, from other people who have been there. Getting help does not mean promising to use your favorite vice in moderation, according to your own willpower. Don’t deceive yourself. If you are an addict, believing in moderation is one more step to spiritual and possibly physical death.

I stressed much of this in similar way back in post #95 but your wording is clearer. Unfortunately those willing to push a drink down a recovered alcoholics throat are not reading the posts.

 

[CopticChristian]

There is no inference. The verse means exactly what it says and it is not out out context. You are seriously playing word games. This verse ha been used by Christendom for ages to show that it is folly to return to what has hurt you.
You are unable to drop the AA condemnation for one second and can not even see that I am not a proponent of AA, although it has some tools to help individuals. Mormons don’t have the full truth among many religions but they can still ascribe to not cheating , stealing, murdering etc. based on elements of truth.

Again, I don’t think you read my posts.

You and I were originally debating “habit vs’ addiction” not sin as addiction.
Post #51- I said “disease” is used too loosley.

Post #52- I said “addiction” is used too loosely.

Post#77- I never said it was a “disease”

After these posts you and I started to discuss addiction as a sin. In post #95, I said “the sin of addiction”. Because I know that when it is carried out, it is sin. Just like when homosexuality is carried out (acted on) it is sin. Just claiming to have an addiction but restraining yourself is not sinful.

Johnny,

This is CAF, the discussion is concerning sin and addiction. The discussion is concerning religion and I believe we can all agree that the Big Book was based on the Bible. In consideration that you believe that Proverbs 26:11 is concerning sin and in consideration that the tenet of the 12 step religion is “humility and teachability”…yes I know that…teach me how it is you believe that all of Christendom uses this verse as you say in the way that you say. Ok

 

[CopticChristian]

One of the central tenets of Christianity is dying to one’s self, surrendering the willful pride that we all have to be conformed to Christ. Christ is the only way, willpower is a deception, as we see in lesson #1 in the garden. Chrsit is the only power, our wills are only good if they are surrendered to Him. Addicts need to keep this in mind more than others. Our wills are currupted from the repeated practice of vice, as well as physical and emotional cravings and dependence. The will is corrupted, more so than a non-addict. Why would anyone try to shape iron using a wet noodle?

Addicts: Surrender the will to Christ. Work a program with others. Get help, not half measures of moderation that almost universally never work. I hope you have the wisdom to ignore some of the irresponsible opinions you have seen here.

**Help does not mean just helping yourself in isolation, it means getting help, from other people who have been there. **Getting help does not mean promising to use your favorite vice in moderation, according to your own willpower. Don’t deceive yourself. If you are an addict, believing in moderation is one more step to spiritual and possibly physical death.

Clem,

I suggest you read Veritiatis Splendor…I do not recall getting “surrender” out of that…I agree that this may well be consistent. Muslims believe that the realtionship with God is master/slave. Catholics believe that the relationship with God is Father/child…I don’t want my children to surrender their will, I want them to align their will…

Surrender is from the 12 step religion of AA…Big Book on page 59…

“Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the turning point.”

The 12 step religion is abstinence or nothing and it is anathema to suggest otherwise so I understand your belief however your belief is just not true. It is only true for you and those that believe it.

You can’t do it on your own, only an alcoholic can help an alcoholic is right out of the Big Book of AA…balderdash…many people do it on their own and I pointed out the scientific proof of that. There are studies galore that many people do it on their own. The notion that you have to be one to help one is nonsense.

 

[CopticChristian]

Me like this one.

Christmas,

Of course you do, I heard this stuff in AA meetings all the time.

 

[CopticChristian]

I stressed much of this in similar way back in post #95 but your wording is clearer. Unfortunately those willing to push a drink down a recovered alcoholics throat are not reading the posts.

Johnny,

Who forces a drink down an alcoholics throat. Alcoholics choose to drink and they choose to get drunk. No one makes anyone do anything unless you are Flip Wilson…

“The devil made me do it”

There is not one member, disciple or anyone that has been influenced by the religion of AA that will accept that moderation is possible because the party line is abstinence. Ok, if you want to believe that but it is just not true although it may be true for you.

 

[Edmundus1581]

One of the central tenets of Christianity is dying to one’s self, surrendering the willful pride that we all have to be conformed to Christ. Christ is the only way, willpower is a deception, as we see in lesson #1 in the garden. Chrsit is the only power, our wills are only good if they are surrendered to Him. Addicts need to keep this in mind more than others. Our wills are currupted from the repeated practice of vice, as well as physical and emotional cravings and dependence. The will is corrupted, more so than a non-addict. Why would anyone try to shape iron using a wet noodle?

Addicts: Surrender the will to Christ. Work a program with others. Get help, not half measures of moderation that almost universally never work. I hope you have the wisdom to ignore some of the irresponsible opinions you have seen here.

Help does not mean just helping yourself in isolation, it means getting help, from other people who have been there. Getting help does not mean promising to use your favorite vice in moderation, according to your own willpower. Don’t deceive yourself. If you are an addict, believing in moderation is one more step to spiritual and possibly physical death.

Excellent!

 

[CopticChristian]

Excellent!

Ed,

Looks like you got the disicple slave message too…surrender…I would rather believe that I align…but you surrender if you will…

 

[johnnyjones]

Johnny,

Who forces a drink down an alcoholics throat. Alcoholics choose to drink and they choose to get drunk. No one makes anyone do anything unless you are Flip Wilson…

“The devil made me do it”

There is not one member, disciple or anyone that has been influenced by the religion of AA that will accept that moderation is possible because the party line is abstinence. Ok, if you want to believe that but it is just not true although it may be true for you.

I definitely used the phrase in a forceful way to make a point. You are a proponent of the view that if a person has wrecked his life with alcohol and drugs, then can all return to those substances, and is some cases it seems , advocate that they do so.

You are non stop with the mentality that any word I utter is AA driven. For one who seems to desire the prevention of fanaticism, you spout anti AA words with your own form of religiosity. You absolutely choose to get drunk, how many times do we need to go over this? When you do so you are sinning which I have repeatedly said, if your not going to read my posts this discussion pointless.

You differ with me that people don’t need help and that they all can safely return to what has harmed them among a few other things.

2 peter 2:22 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_a_dog_returns_to_his_vomit,_so_a_fool_repeats_his_folly

 

[Christmastwin]

Christmas,

Of course you do, I heard this stuff in AA meetings all the time.

I hope the meetings you attended were open meetings. There is a requirement, you know, and people who do not have a desire to stop drinking don’t belong in closed meetings. If you attended under the guise of having a problem to conduct your “study”, wouldn’t that be sinning right there?

As a physician, what would you tell a patient that wants to stop drinking and find they cannot do it on their own? Read Peele’s books?

 

[clem456]

Fortunately I have a copy of Veritatis Splendor on the bookshelf. I wold recommend re-reading the first section addressing Matthew 19, as well as the section on conscience at about page 85 onward. This idea of autonomous free will-power is completely unsupported.

Section 21: Being a follower of Christ means **becoming conformed **to him…Christ dwells by faith in the heart of the believer and thus the disciple is conformed to the Lord. This is the effect of Grace, of the active presence of the Holy Spirit in us.

Section 19The way and at the same time the content of perfection consist in the following of Jesus…once one has **given up **one’s own wealth and self…Following Christ is the essential and primordial foudnation of Christian morality…It involves holding fast to the very person of Jesus…sharing in his free and loving obedience to the will of the Father.

Section 54: In the depths of his conscience man detects a law which he does not impose upon himself, but wich holds him to obedience…For man has in his heart a law written by God…The cultural tendencies… in which freedom and law are set in opposition to one another…and freedom is exalted to the point of idolatry-lead to a “creative” understanding of the moral conscience, which diverges from the Church’s tradition and her Magisterium.

 

[CopticChristian]

I definitely used the phrase in a forceful way to make a point. You are a proponent of the view that if a person has wrecked his life with alcohol and drugs, then can all return to those substances, and is some cases it seems , advocate that they do so.

You are non stop with the mentality that any word I utter is AA driven. For one who seems to desire the prevention of fanaticism, you spout anti AA words with your own form of religiosity. You absolutely choose to get drunk, how many times do we need to go over this? When you do so you are sinning which I have repeatedly said, if your not going to read my posts this discussion pointless.

You differ with me that people don’t need help and that they all can safely return to what has harmed them among a few other things.

2 peter 2:22 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_a_dog_returns_to_his_vomit,_so_a_fool_repeats_his_folly

Johnny,

You generalize that I propose anything. I point out reality and you conclude something related to the worst of the worst.

I have witnessed, talked to, interviewed 12 step failures. I have seen destruction of lives, depression, dishonesty and death with those involved in AA. You see what you see. I see what I see. I look at reports and conclude other than what you conclude.

I am still waiting for you to tell me where Christendom speaks of Proverbs 26:11 as returning to sin.

You ignore me.

 

[CopticChristian]

I hope the meetings you attended were open meetings. There is a requirement, you know, and people who do not have a desire to stop drinking don’t belong in closed meetings. If you attended under the guise of having a problem to conduct your “study”, wouldn’t that be sinning right there?

As a physician, what would you tell a patient that wants to stop drinking and find they cannot do it on their own? Read Peele’s books?

Christmas,

Open meetings, closed meetings, speaker meetings, Big Book read a paragraph here and there meetings, NA, Sex Addicts, Love Addicts, Food Addicts, Emotion Addicts, SMART, SOS, and whatever else I could use to get a handle on the truth. Requirements? By what authority are these requirements binding? You are joking here are you not?

Sin? There is sin in eductation? Please.

 

[CopticChristian]

Fortunately I have a copy of Veritatis Splendor on the bookshelf. I wold recommend re-reading the first section addressing Matthew 19, as well as the section on conscience at about page 85 onward. This idea of autonomous free will-power is completely unsupported.

Section 21: Being a follower of Christ means **becoming conformed **to him…Christ dwells by faith in the heart of the believer and thus the disciple is conformed to the Lord. This is the effect of Grace, of the active presence of the Holy Spirit in us.

Section 19The way and at the same time the content of perfection consist in the following of Jesus…once one has **given up **one’s own wealth and self…Following Christ is the essential and primordial foudnation of Christian morality…It involves holding fast to the very person of Jesus…sharing in his free and loving obedience to the will of the Father.

Section 54: In the depths of his conscience man detects a law which he does not impose upon himself, but wich holds him to obedience…For man has in his heart a law written by God…The cultural tendencies… in which freedom and law are set in opposition to one another…and freedom is exalted to the point of idolatry-lead to a “creative” understanding of the moral conscience, which diverges from the Church’s tradition and her Magisterium.

Clem,

Here is the rub. If the Church has all you need. If Veritatis Splendor is good enough. What does AA do that the Church can’t do? Is it that many do not look within the confines of the Church to know what the Church teaches until they learn Protestant Christianity in AA?

Next. Is it yours and others opinion that

addiction=abstinence? for those that are addicted. Help me out here on this one. Is this your belief?

Just let me know if that is true for you.

Your question about someone that wanted to stop drinking would entail more than the answer to a question.

How much do you drink?
When do you drink?
Why do you think you need to stop?
Is it becaue of health?
Is it because you were arrested?
Is it because your life is in shambles?

Anyone that wants to stop drinking would be told what I have told you about AA.

AA is a religion
AA has no better than a 10% success rate
AA requires you to go to meetings and will tell you that you need to do a 4th step and confess your sins to someone that may tell everyone about what you tell them
AA requires you to confront your character defects that are in reality sins
AA requires you to read a book and learn Protestant theology or accept an external locus of control
AA requires you to accept that you have an allergy to alcohol, and that is nonsense, just do an internet search on the “allergy to alcohol” and see that it is rare and has no bearing on reality
AA requires you to get a Sponsor, someone that you call and all association with this religion is from the bottom up, in other words you call everyone, no one calls you until you reach the status of Sponsor and get people to call you
You will associate only with other failures that could not get their life together as models of excellence and that makes no sense. If you want to succeed in life you would do better to study people that don’t drink, don’t get drunk, find out how they do it and model them.
You will have a disease when you start, will always be told you have a disease, will exit although you never exit with a disease and you will always believe you have a disease even though it isn’t a disease and you will resist anyone that tells you otherwise

Lastly you must have a “spiritual awakening” and when you realize that this is very Protestant, ie the Protestant holiness movement and you must finally be able to take this message to another, in other words you must Sponsor someone, believe and teach this stuff or you can’t complete the steps, it is important to swallow this stuff and teach it
and you must go to meetings, remain abstinent and the end result is death, jail and worse

You will learn that you have a disease when you get there, what kind? A spiritual disease. You will have a disease when you leave, although you never leave. You will sound like a robot, parroting 12 step religion theology whenever you discuss this topic and you will disregard any knowledge and tell people that unless they have been where others have been that they have no knowledge and thus avoid knowing anything about reality.

or

you can just figure out that Gluttony is a sin and drinking too much is a sin. The Church teaches virtue as strengthened through human effort…here you will learn to develop an internal locus of control as opposed to the Protestant external locus of control.

and if you really can’t figure this out

Learn some basic skills with programs like

AVRT, costs money
SMART, free
SOS, secular
Life Process Program

You can rejoin society knowing you had some bad habits, made some mistakes, and join society with others like you.

and if you do this you will never believe you have a disease and you won’t have to go to a program forever and a day and associate with people that can’t figure out their lives and can’t see the world in reality and speak only of testimonials and AA aprorisms.