Split: If you are addicted, is it a sin?

[clem456]

Did I mention AA in my post?
You would do well to consider and respond to what other posters actually write. If you’re not going to respond to the content of the post, why respond at all? that’s not dialogue, that’s blind and obstinate promotion of an agenda.

 

[CopticChristian]

Did I mention AA in my post?
You would do well to consider and respond to what other posters actually write. If you’re not going to respond to the content of the post, why respond at all? that’s not dialogue, that’s blind and obstinate promotion of an agenda.

Clem,

Now I don’t understand you. AA meetings purport themselves as a place where anyone can say anything. The meeting is spent listening to everyone say whatever they choose to and there is no cross talk. No on interrupts anyone else and no one speaks out of turn.

Here you are telling me that I am not free to do what I could do in an AA meeting. Do you have a problem with control. Do you feel that you control what others could and should say? You may want to think about this.

Your opinion is registered as not liking what I wrote. I understand. The sin of addiction does much to a soul.

My agenda, huuum…lets see…

My agenda is reporting facts
My agenda is reporting my experience
My agenda is saying what I think is right
My agenda is truth and not fiction
My agenda is sharing information that may be helpful
My agenda is pointing out that there are differences of opinion
My agenda is pointing out the Protestant nature of the religion of AA…for instance

Protestants are constantly on these CAF threads touting

Believe
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to
sanity.

Confess with your lips and you will be saved
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character(SINS)
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

You are spiritually reborn
12. **Having had a spiritual awakening **as the result of these Steps, we tried tocarry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our
affairs.

Evangelize this message
we tried tocarry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our
affairs.

I want people to see what there is to be seen, don’t you…

 

[Christmastwin]

Christmas,

Open meetings, closed meetings, speaker meetings, Big Book read a paragraph here and there meetings, NA, Sex Addicts, Love Addicts, Food Addicts, Emotion Addicts, SMART, SOS, and whatever else I could use to get a handle on the truth. Requirements? By what authority are these requirements binding? You are joking here are you not?

Sin? There is sin in eductation? Please.

Read the Traditions. You would be asked to leave a closed meeting. It is to protect people’s anonymity. Who’s to say you aren’t from some news station and recording who is at meetings and what they’re saying? It’s wrong. Just wrong. If you know so much about AA, you would know this. I’m really starting to wonder.

www.aa.org

A wealth of information on there for anyone so inclined. Big Book, 12 Steps & 12 Traditions, Pamphlets, etc., etc. Then people here who may be wondering what you’re talking about can take a look for themselves.

There are countless people who were desperate who found a way out of their misery through AA. God bless them.

 

[CopticChristian]

Read the Traditions. You would be asked to leave a closed meeting. It is to protect people’s anonymity. Who’s to say you aren’t from some news station and recording who is at meetings and what they’re saying? It’s wrong. Just wrong. If you know so much about AA, you would know this. I’m really starting to wonder.

www.aa.org

A wealth of information on there for anyone so inclined. Big Book, 12 Steps & 12 Traditions, Pamphlets, etc., etc. Then people here who may be wondering what you’re talking about can take a look for themselves.

There are countless people who were desperate who found a way out of their misery through AA. God bless them.

Christmas,

Let me see. Physicians give advice. Physicians know that the advice that they give is good advice. Physicians that give advice on something they know nothing about should not give that advice. I have a higher standard than you do. I cannot recommend anything that I do not understand, know, believe and can prove has value. You can tout aphorisms, what you know, what you believe…but people don’t look to you as a standard of excellence or someone that they should be able to trust.

My experience is that while you believe AA helped people out of their misery is that it is a miserable place to be where I find people depressed, dishonest, lying, cheating, looking for women to 13th step, reading material that is contrary to reality and touting it as truth. I have seen people fail, go to jail, relapse and die. You see success. I weigh the reality of no better than a 10% success rate and better options.

You may or may not have heard of that great work by Emmett Fox…Sermon on The Mount…I read this garbage…and wondered why this was being touted…what happened to the Catholic Church and writings of those guys…

The same Emmett Fox…

Emmet Fox (July 30, 1886–August 13, 1951) was a New Thought spiritual leader of the early 20th century, famous for his large Divine Science church services held in New York City during the Great Depression.

He was ordained in the Divine Science branch of New Thought.

Fox’s secretary was the mother of one of the men who worked with Alcoholics Anonymous co-founder Bill W., and partly as a result of this connection early AA groups often went to hear Fox. His writing, especially “The Sermon on the Mount,” became popular in AA

Too many “I am a recovering alcholic and a recovering Catholic” at these stink holes of the religion of AA…

Glad you like it.

 

[Christmastwin]

Christmas,

Glad you like it.

Thanks. I do.

 

[clem456]

Clem,

Now I don’t understand you. AA meetings purport themselves as a place where anyone can say anything. The round robin circle jerk meeting is spent listening to everyone say whatever they choose to and there is no cross talk. No on interrupts anyone else and no one speaks out of turn.

.

I never talked about AA.

You referenced Veritatis Splendor a couple of posts ago. I believe you misrepresented it. I responded with this:

“”

Fortunately I have a copy of Veritatis Splendor on the bookshelf. I wold recommend re-reading the first section addressing Matthew 19, as well as the section on conscience at about page 85 onward. This idea of autonomous free will-power is completely unsupported.

Section 21: Being a follower of Christ means becoming conformed to him…Christ dwells by faith in the heart of the believer and thus the disciple is conformed to the Lord. This is the effect of Grace, of the active presence of the Holy Spirit in us.

Section 19The way and at the same time the content of perfection consist in the following of Jesus…once one has given up one’s own wealth and self…Following Christ is the essential and primordial foudnation of Christian morality…It involves holding fast to the very person of Jesus…sharing in his free and loving obedience to the will of the Father.

Section 54: In the depths of his conscience man detects a law which he does not impose upon himself, but wich holds him to obedience…For man has in his heart a law written by God…The cultural tendencies… in which freedom and law are set in opposition to one another…and freedom is exalted to the point of idolatry-lead to a “creative” understanding of the moral conscience, which diverges from the Church’s tradition and her Magisterium.""

Can you respond to my post?

 

[CopticChristian]

I never talked about AA.

You referenced Veritatis Splendor a couple of posts ago. I believe you misrepresented it. I responded with this:

“”

Can you respond to my post?

Clem,

I like Veritatis Splendor

 

[clem456]

Clem,

I like Veritatis Splendor

That’s nice. Can you respond to the post or not? Is it a courage problem or a obstinance problem?

 

[CopticChristian]

That’s nice. Can you respond to the post or not? Is it a courage problem or a obstinance problem?

Clem,

Thank you for demonstrating the problem with being inculcated in the religion of 12 steps/AA that is very close to Protestant thought.

Protestants say “The Bible or The Church”

You say courage or obstinance…gotta love that black and white thinking, either or…two choices abstinence or death…

What is your question?

Response may be lacking for

lack of clarity in the question
available time to understand what it is you are asking
I have to go to the restroom and have other things to do
My water heater just broke and it did, I have to wait for someone to come
and a myriad of other reasons that black and white thinking does not take into account

either or as I see it…the learned thinking from the religion of 12 steps…

Thanks.

 

[johnnyjones]

Johnny,

You generalize that I propose anything. I point out reality and you conclude something related to the worst of the worst.

I have witnessed, talked to, interviewed 12 step failures. I have seen destruction of lives, depression, dishonesty and death with those involved in AA. You see what you see. I see what I see. I look at reports and conclude other than what you conclude.

I am still waiting for you to tell me where Christendom speaks of Proverbs 26:11 as returning to sin.

You ignore me.

I guess you didn’t read my post…again. Why does 2 Peter say as a washed sow returns to the mire?

Development:

The Greek translation in the Septuagint developed the idea, imbuing it with a sense of shame and guilt, “As when a dog goes to his own vomit and becomes abominable, so is a fool who returns in his wickedness to his own sin.” This was due to the contemporary idea of the fool as ungodly.:yup:

 

[clem456]

Clem,

Thank you for demonstrating the problem with being inculcated in the religion of 12 steps/AA that is very close to Protestant thought.

What is your question?

:

Never participated in AA or a 12 step program.

The question is, will you stay on topic and respond to the post I made, which addressed Veritatis Splendor, which you cited in support of your beliefs?
In case you haven’t noticed, -you- have made -you- the issue on this thread.

 

[CopticChristian]

I guess you didn’t read my post…again. Why does 2 Peter say as a washed sow returns to the mire?

Development:

The Greek translation in the Septuagint developed the idea, imbuing it with a sense of shame and guilt, “As when a dog goes to his own vomit and becomes abominable, so is a fool who returns in his wickedness to his own sin.” This was due to the contemporary idea of the fool as ungodly.:yup:

Johnny,

Oh you mean this…

1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be **false teachers **among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

  4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 5and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; 7and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men 8(for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds), 9then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, 10and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority.

  Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties, 11whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord. **12But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, 13suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you, 14having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children; 15forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;** 16but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.

  17These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved. 18For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error, 19promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved. 20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. **21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22It has happened to them according to the true proverb,** “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

This is speaking of false prophets and stupid people so if you want to compare an alcoholic turning to liquor as someone that is a dog returning to their vomit then alcoholics are stupid people that drink.

You may want to consider what the essence of the Proverb is…to understand what it is you are believing.

 

[CopticChristian]

I guess you didn’t read my post…again. Why does 2 Peter say as a washed sow returns to the mire?

Development:

The Greek translation in the Septuagint developed the idea, imbuing it with a sense of shame and guilt, “As when a dog goes to his own vomit and becomes abominable, so is a fool who returns in his wickedness to his own sin.” This was due to the contemporary idea of the fool as ungodly.:yup:

Johnny,

You miss the greater meaning of the Proverb as Peter quotes it. Paul and Peter never quote the Old Testament out of context. They expect you to go back and understand what it said because those they preached to knew it too…for instance Paul says…

Romans 1 he introduces the concept of fool

22Professing to be wise, they became **fools, **23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
10as it is written,

Then in Romans 3 he quotes Psalm 14 in part but expects you to know it or look it up…

     “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

and Psalm 14 starts with this…

1The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds;
There is no one who does good.

So Peter is quoting the Proverb expecting that you know the Proverb and the greater meaning…so here is what the Collegeville Bible Commentary says about Proverbs 26 in it’s entirety…

26:1-28. There is no specifically religious content in chapter 26. It can be divided into three major topics: the fool (vv. 1-12, using the strong **Hebrew sense of the “stupid one”); the lazy person (vv. 13-16); and evil speech **(w. 17-28).

Generally, the wisdom position on the fool can be stated simply: to deal with the fool seri¬ously makes one a fool in turn. Wisdom is perverted by the fool, who does not under¬stand the value of good order, logical think¬ing, self-control, or self-denial for a larger good. The fool thinks only of what he or she can get right now and interprets everything in that selfish light. The result is a totally un¬bridled person, badly in need of severe dis¬ciplining to get back on the way of social responsibility (v. 3). The opposite advice in verses 4-5 shows the difficulty involved in di¬alogue with fools. They do not learn, and their speaking endangers all around them. The fool cannot be taught and cannot be cor¬rected, and all who attempt it come to grief themselves (v. 10). Verse 11 illustrates the point graphically and is later quoted by 2 Pet 2:22 in the New Testament.

Verses 13-16 gather together another small section on the lazy. Verse 13 repeats 22:13; verse 15 repeats 19:24; verse 14 is similar in theme to 24:33. Thus these are not a new se¬ries of ideas. The attention to laziness was popular among the wise, and there were prob¬ably two independent collections that used the same sayings.

The remainder of the chapter deals with the harmful effects of speech wrongly used. It is focused on hypocrisy and deceptive words. A surface seriousness conceals evil in¬tentions in the heart of the speaker. Like glaze on the surface of a pot that has never been fired (and thus is likely to break easily), smooth words conceal much deception that will shortly bring the trusting listener to dis- aster or loss. Verse 26 suggests that such hidden evil is found out by observing the re¬ligious practice of the individual. Verse 27 expresses the traditional Israelite conviction that evil brings evil on itself (the plots of both Daniel and Esther are examples).

So what you want to do is say an alcoholic is a fool, once a fool always a fool according to your interpretation…

The idea is to know that you should stay know what a fool is, stay away from a fool and not follow a fool and I am all for that…

 

[clem456]

Johnny,

Oh you mean this…

This is speaking of false prophets and stupid people so if you want to compare an alcoholic turning to liquor as someone that is a dog returning to their vomit then alcoholics are stupid people that drink.
You may want to consider what the essence of the Proverb is…to understand what it is you are believing.

Yes it is speaking of false prophecy, such as you are espousing.

1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies**, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2Many will follow their sensuality,** and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 5and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; 7and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men 8(for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds), 9then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, 10and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority.

Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties, 11whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord. 12But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, 13suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you, 14having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children; 15forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.

17These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved. 18For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error, 19promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved. 20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

These are not exactly words in support of self-willed moderation.
I believe you are in waaaay over your head.

Notice the word rescue is used a couple of times. Escape. Salvery to enticements.
Keep posting the scripture and we’ll have a great discussion.

Are you going to respond to my post on Veritatis Splendor, which you referenced?

 

[CopticChristian]

Yes it is speaking of false prophecy, such as you are espousing.

These are not exactly words in support of self-willed moderation.
I believe you are in waaaay over your head.

Notice the word rescue is used a couple of times. Escape. Salvery to enticements.
Keep posting the scripture and we’ll have a great discussion.

Are you going to respond to my post on Veritatis Splendor, which you referenced?

Clem,

I don’t know what your question is. Pose a question. Here is what I do know…

You claim to be an addict. I am sorry you believe that. I would just say you sinned and found grace and are forming your concience strengthening your virtues. But look what you say. You are an addict. You never went to an AA meeting. You stumbled through the steps, never worked a program…sounds like 1/2 measures to me and you joined two bible studies and found a support group…

So what is wrong with finding a SMART recovery support group, going to Church and figuring out you don’t have a disease, are not an addict and have a bad habit that needs values/virtue. You are basically sayint that there are many ways as I have said as you somehow “came to believe” in everything the 12 steps teach without doing it.

The idiocy of the disease mentality and abstinence is of course returning to Porn cannot be done in moderation, nor can Cocaine, and of course Smoking will kill you so that makes no sense…but what about Overeating…do you abstain from food? What about shopping addiction…do you never shop? What about sex addiction…do you never return to normal moderate behavior with your spouse?

This abstinence idea is nonsense for all and is rational behavior for some but not all…wake up…

And I would just add that you are oversimplifying the 12 step programs. They have saved many lives for good reason.

For any addict I know, the only way to recovery is to be driven to your knees in humility and submission to God, (or a higher power, or your 12 step, or your accountability group, or some combination of these).

Addicts: Surrender the will to Christ. Work a program with others. Get help, not half measures of moderation that almost universally never work. I hope you have the wisdom to ignore some of the irresponsible opinions you have seen here.

And I never did the SA program directly either. Not to get repetitive, but I stumbled through recovery without an official program, but did the steps unwittingly anyway.
In not one post have I mentioned AA, or recommended it as absolutely necessary.

Ok, if you say so. I have never read the Big Book. The 12 step is not my “paradigm”. I did unwittingly accomplish most or all of those steps, but it was not planned, I stumbled through it. I would not be sober without surrender to the support of others, accountability to others, to God, working a plan.

What caused me to join 2 bible studies and have an accountability partner and join a support group?

Does an addict HAVE TO go through an official program to recover? Of course not. There are exceptions to every rule.

Help does not mean just helping yourself in isolation, it means getting help, from other people who have been there. Getting help does not mean promising to use your favorite vice in moderation, according to your own willpower. Don’t deceive yourself. If you are an addict, believing in moderation is one more step to spiritual and possibly physical death.

 

[johnnyjones]

Johnny,

Oh you mean this…

This is speaking of false prophets and stupid people so if you want to compare an alcoholic turning to liquor as someone that is a dog returning to their vomit then alcoholics are stupid people that drink.

You may want to consider what the essence of the Proverb is…to understand what it is you are believing.

Your special interpretation right? Pause and realize you are very wrong. The Catholic perspective does not isolate “false prophets” to show only one meaning, instead we show how all encompassing sin is in various ways. Remember, according to you ideology, a habit is an addiction. Lets take a look at sin (drunkedness, drug addiction) and how returning to it is folly. wakingupcatholic.com/weekly-bible-verses/283-2-peter-2-20-22.html

 

[clem456]

Clem,

I don’t know what your question is. Pose a question. Here is what I do know.

.

You’re backed into a corner repeatedly and refuse to face the posts that stare you in the face. Can’t do your work for you. Ffind some courage. So how about Veritatis Splendor? Does it support your view of willpower?

You claim to be an addict. I am sorry you believe that. I would just say you sinned and found grace and are forming your concience strengthening your virtues. But look what you say. You are an addict. You never went to an AA meeting. You stumbled through the steps, never worked a program…sounds like 1/2 measures to me and you joined two bible studies and found a support group…

I don’t claim to be an addict, I am one. In don’t do 1/2 measures or enjoy in moderation any more. Tried that. No 1/2 measures. YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. Don’t know me, don’t treat addicts, haven’t been one. And worse, have posted dubioous and biased research harmful to addicts. You could do the forum a service by admitting that and stepping out. That would be the right thing to do.

So what is wrong with finding a SMART recovery support group, going to Church and figuring out you don’t have a disease, are not an addict and have a bad habit that needs values/virtue. You are basically sayint that there are many ways as I have said as you somehow “came to believe” in everything the 12 steps teach without doing it.

I don’t “believe in” 12 steps. I and several other posters have told you that. You cannot hear it. 12 steps are a valuable tool…I don’t “believe in them”. I believe in surrender to Jesus Christ, as do most other Christian addicts. (the ones that recover anyway). 12 steps fits nicely with that faith for many many people.

The idiocy of the disease mentality and abstinence is of course returning to Porn cannot be done in moderation, nor can Cocaine, and of course Smoking will kill you so that makes no sense…but what about Overeating…do you abstain from food? What about shopping addiction…do you never shop? What about sex addiction…do you never return to normal moderate behavior with your spouse?

You don’t even begin to understand lust addiction. Sorry. wouldn’t even know where to begin with you. Abstinence is idiocy? comparing overeating to alcoholism? I need food to live, I do not need alcohol to live.

This abstinence idea is nonsense for all and is rational behavior for some but not all…wake up…

Please stop posting for the good of the forum…

 

[acacia12]

.

You’re backed into a corner repeatedly and refuse to face the posts that stare you in the face. Can’t do your work for you. Ffind some courage. So how about Veritatis Splendor? Does it support your view of willpower?

I don’t claim to be an addict, I am one. In don’t do 1/2 measures or enjoy in moderation any more. Tried that. No 1/2 measures. YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. Don’t know me, don’t treat addicts, haven’t been one. And worse, have posted dubioous and biased research harmful to addicts. You could do the forum a service by admitting that and stepping out. That would be the right thing to do.

I don’t “believe in” 12 steps. I and several other posters have told you that. You cannot hear it. 12 steps are a valuable tool…I don’t “believe in them”. I believe in surrender to Jesus Christ, as do most other Christian addicts. (the ones that recover anyway). 12 steps fits nicely with that faith for many many people.

You don’t even begin to understand lust addiction. Sorry. wouldn’t even know where to begin with you. Abstinence is idiocy? comparing overeating to alcoholism? I need food to live, I do not need alcohol to live.

Please stop posting for the good of the forum…

 

[CopticChristian]

Your special interpretation right? Pause and realize you are very wrong. The Catholic perspective does not isolate “false prophets” to show only one meaning, instead we show how all encompassing sin is in various ways. Remember, according to you ideology, a habit is an addiction. Lets take a look at sin (drunkedness, drug addiction) and how returning to it is folly. wakingupcatholic.com/weekly-bible-verses/283-2-peter-2-20-22.html

Johnny,

It appears that you found something that agrees with you. I like the Collegeville commentary that says there are us and there is them. Them is the fools and those fools are described in proverbs by similes. Stay away from the fools. That is how I read it. You can read it anyway you like.

Niether reading is de fide. I may look at my ECF collection to see how it is read. That will take some time. I will get back to you…

 

[CopticChristian]

.

You’re backed into a corner repeatedly and refuse to face the posts that stare you in the face. Can’t do your work for you. Ffind some courage. So how about Veritatis Splendor? Does it support your view of willpower?

I don’t claim to be an addict, I am one. In don’t do 1/2 measures or enjoy in moderation any more. Tried that. No 1/2 measures. YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. Don’t know me, don’t treat addicts, haven’t been one. And worse, have posted dubioous and biased research harmful to addicts. You could do the forum a service by admitting that and stepping out. That would be the right thing to do.

I don’t “believe in” 12 steps. I and several other posters have told you that. You cannot hear it. 12 steps are a valuable tool…I don’t “believe in them”. I believe in surrender to Jesus Christ, as do most other Christian addicts. (the ones that recover anyway). 12 steps fits nicely with that faith for many many people.

You don’t even begin to understand lust addiction. Sorry. wouldn’t even know where to begin with you. Abstinence is idiocy? comparing overeating to alcoholism? I need food to live, I do not need alcohol to live.

Please stop posting for the good of the forum…

Clem,

Are you aware that there is such a thing as Schizophrenogenic messages. These messages are like “stand up, no sit down”.

You ask me to answer a post and then
you tell me to stop posting.

I have a response for you concerning Veritatis Splendor however I don’t have the time now. It will appear later…start with this.

“Genuine freedom is an outstanding manifestation of the divine image in man. For **God willed to leave man “in the power of his own counsel” **(cf. Sir 15:14), so that he would seek his Creator of his own accord and would freely arrive at full and blessed perfection by cleaving to God”.57

and this…

The person, by the light of reason and the support of virtue, discovers in the body the anticipatory signs, the expression and the promise of the gift of self, in conformity with the wise plan of the Creator.

A formed conscience guided by reason and strengthened by virute…recall that this is by human effort…starting to sound familiar…