SPLIT: Is Confession not necessary?

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Jerry_Marino said:
i didn’t say i agree, i said you win
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Unfortunately - this is more consistent with what I’ve come to expect: obfuscation.
What does “You win” mean, exactly, in the Protestant world? Does it mean “I quit”? or does it mean " I now realize I cant refute your argument but I still cling to my original premise despite being shown its errors"? Or does it really mean nothing at all? One thing it apparently doesnt mean is “I lose”…
God does not force anyone to do good works. No one can do good works apart from grace. Anyone can choose not to do good works. Making that choice is a rejection of the sovereignty of God, and it can have eternal consequences.
 
Philthy said:
Unfortunately - this is more consistent with what I’ve come to expect: obfuscation.
What does “You win” mean, exactly, in the Protestant world? Does it mean “I quit”? or does it mean " I now realize I cant refute your argument but I still cling to my original premise despite being shown its errors"? Or does it really mean nothing at all? One thing it apparently doesnt mean is “I lose”…
God does not force anyone to do good works. No one can do good works apart from grace. Anyone can choose not to do good works. Making that choice is a rejection of the sovereignty of God, and it can have eternal consequences.
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Can you tell me what grace is please?
 
ralphy said:
Can you tell me what grace is please?
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From the Catholic Catechism
2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning “favor,” “gratuitous gift,” “benefit.” 53 Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church. 54

53 Cf. LG 12. 54 Cf. I Cor 12.

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. **Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life. **46
46 Cf. Jn 1:12-18; 17:3; Rom 8:14-17; 2 Pet 1:3-4.

1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an “adopted son” he can henceforth call God “Father,” in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, “since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:” 50

50 St. Augustine, De gratia et libero arbitrio, 17: PL 44, 901.

Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing. 51

51 St. Augustine, De natura et gratia, 31: PL 44, 264.

PROTESTANTS TAKE NOTE of 2005 PLEASE!
2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved. 56 However, according to the Lord’s words “Thus you will know them by their fruits” 57 - reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.

56 Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1533-1534 57 Mt 7:20.

A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: “Asked if she knew that she was in God’s grace, she replied: ‘If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.’” 58

58 Acts of the trial of St. Joan of Arc.

2021 Grace is the help God gives us to respond to our vocation of becoming his adopted sons. It introduces us into the intimacy of the Trinitarian life.

2023 Sanctifying grace is the gratuitous gift of his life that God makes to us; it is infused by the Holy Spirit into the soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it.

Now Go Here And Learn About Entering/Reentering The Catholic Church:
catholicscomehome.org/

James
 
Philthy said:
Unfortunately - this is more consistent with what I’ve come to expect: obfuscation.
What does “You win” mean, exactly, in the Protestant world? Does it mean “I quit”? or does it mean " I now realize I cant refute your argument but I still cling to my original premise despite being shown its errors"? Or does it really mean nothing at all? One thing it apparently doesnt mean is “I lose”…
God does not force anyone to do good works. No one can do good works apart from grace. Anyone can choose not to do good works. Making that choice is a rejection of the sovereignty of God, and it can have eternal consequences.
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it means you win
 
Hi Ralphy! Thanks for taking the time to respond. I was kind of hoping you might actually answer some of my questions too, but I guess this is a start…
ralphy said:
Can you tell me what grace is please?
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The bible doesnt define what grace is - it assumes someone will be able to teach what grace is. James’ quote of the Catechism is an excellent treatment of grace. You would do well to reflect on it.
 
**Actually the Bible defines cleary on many samples what is Gods Grace; see for one of many: Romans 3,24

But we all know what’s Gods Grace anyhow. It’s God’s mercy to forgive, even as we do not deserve it

to be forgiven however, several requirements of course are indispensable - there is no automatism as some sects make you believe.**
 
I agree that man is never saved by man initiated works.

I could even agree that God willed works that we perform will not save us.

I wouldn’t agree in any time limited before death concept of salvation.

We are gracefully saved by that faith which continues THROUGH God Willed Works unto death.

Faith and salvation are continuing processes.

And why is that?

Because God Himself is continual.

God called himself “I am”.

Am is not time limited or discrete.

Salvation is not a time limited discrete event.

Discrete limited faith will not save!

Continual faith that flows through God willed works will save.

And why is that?

Because it will make us in a small way like God–continual!

The devil basically wants people to believe in salvation as a discrete event.

Why?

Because if we look at it that way we won’t worry about faith CONTINUING through works that God wills and when we don’t we will fall into mortal sin and the devil will laughingly take our souls to Hell!

I just wish all the one track mind either/or people of the world could grasp the concept that God is much bigger than 2 or three dimesions!

If you’ve got a big enough mind to be able to fathom the additional dimesion of time and if you can appreciate paradox and realize that sometimes God is not either/or but both/and–that two separate truths which appear to conflict can both be true–then you’ll have a mind large enough to conceptualize that faith is continual and not discrete.

When you do you’ll realize that the Catholic Church has been teaching the truth about faith all along.

And you’ll realize that the devil revels in getting sincere people of faith to fall for false dichotomies.

Faith or works? Only the devil would vex people with a false dichotomie such as that!

Faith and works? The devil would like people to believe that one, too!

Faith continuing through God willed works?

The devil doesn’t want people to see it that way!
 
**Whoever is without any understanding of believe and faith and all divine, says:

“funny”

How much more uplifting it would be to him, if same person would really try to understand, instead of remaining in speculations about believe - as Timothy said:

1Tim 7: “Some people have deviated from these and turned to meaningless talk, without understanding either what they are saying or what they assert with such assurance.”

Jesus Christ’s offer to understand, is given to anyone who wants to understand. It’s no use to simply wipe it all away and say

“FUNNY”

for Jesus Christ said in Mt 7,8: “For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.”

Luke 8,8: The Lord says “Whoever has ears to hear ought to hear.”
**
 
do you read what you post and apply them to your life my friend?

by the way timothy did not say that it was a letter that paul wrote to him.
 
**Congratulation - in this point you are right: Timothy did not say this true word, but was told Timothy so by St. Paul. (Surely Timothy passed it on…
still: The Bible tells us; - so it doesn’t matter who said it - just take it to your heart 😃

**
 
Is it possible that people don’t like going to confession because the emphasis is on the priest rather than on their reconciliation with God? One traumatic experience as a child can form this misconception. And we are ministered to through a personality. That personality can be harsh, misunderstanding, or kind and gentle. The dynamics of the confessional are complicated. But I do think that we need to go as often as is necessary.

For healing and forgiveness A Jesuit once told me that the conscience is the last court of appeal.

We need to remember that anyone can quote the bible to suit themselves. But there’s no real comfort in that.
 
I don’t see how anyone can read the scriptures where it says that Jesus breathed on the disciples and gave them the power to forgive and RETAIN sin and not believe in confession.

All of us can forgive sin and are urged by Jesus to do so.

Only the apostles and their successors the bishops and priests can RETAIN sin.

Exactly what part of the power of forgiving and retaining sin that Jesus gave to the disciples do non confession believing people not understand?
 
Jerry-Jet said:
I don’t see how anyone can read the scriptures where it says that Jesus breathed on the disciples and gave them the power to forgive and RETAIN sin and not believe in confession.

All of us can forgive sin and are urged by Jesus to do so.

Only the apostles and their successors the bishops and priests can RETAIN sin.

Exactly what part of the power of forgiving and retaining sin that Jesus gave to the disciples do non confession believing people not understand?
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Do you know that the disciples are dead and their bodies are in the grave, and if you say that they past something along to someone else, please supply some scripture for this , thank you. Ralph
 
sauce said:
Is it possible that people don’t like going to confession because the emphasis is on the priest rather than on their reconciliation with God? One traumatic experience as a child can form this misconception. And we are ministered to through a personality. That personality can be harsh, misunderstanding, or kind and gentle. The dynamics of the confessional are complicated. But I do think that we need to go as often as is necessary.

For healing and forgiveness A Jesuit once told me that the conscience is the last court of appeal.

We need to remember that anyone can quote the bible to suit themselves. But there’s no real comfort in that.
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Only God can forgive sin, John 2:6. Ralph
 
**Yes, true; one traumatic experience as a child can form this misconception.
But:

Many of us (me too) blame our wrongdoing on all levels on childhood traumatic happenings.

We must not do so! It’s simply wrong, for it’s past and had been and is over long ago.
We can’t expect others – neither God – to keep in mind what we suffered as a child, and therefore excuse our failure.

Such, but of course in better words – a religious person told me many years ago, and I kind of woke up. It’s true!
We live today, and we do not HAVE TO carry all old traumatic experiences with us. We like to, but it’s wrong!!!
Jerry-Jet said:
Exactly what part of the power of forgiving and retaining sin that Jesus gave to the disciples do non confession believing people not understand?
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Who doesn’t want to understand, never will. Just let them be happy with it, for their life now, is all they’ll ever have. **
 
ralphy said:
Do you know that the disciples are dead and their bodies are in the grave, and if you say that they past something along to someone else, please supply some scripture for this , thank you. Ralph
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Ralph you are just being pig headed here. Do you think Christianity just died with the apostles? They passed on their authority through The Church. Go back and see how this apostolic authority was given to Mathias to replace Judas by laying on of hands. That is how the authority is passed. This is exactly how Catholic Bishops got all their apostolic authority - it was all passed down from a prior bishop all the way back to Peter.

James
 
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