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Lux_Caelum
Guest
I agree with everything you have written here. And who knows maybe Jesus presents himself at our death and give us one final chance for repentance!
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ralphy
Guest
God does not vary His opinion on sin. Sin is sin,that is anything done against God’s commandments. There are no small or big sins, all are the same.They will all take you to Hell. Romans 3:23. Ralph
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Michael96
Guest
Hmmm, but 1 John 5:16-17 would suggest otherwise.
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Bruno_Schulz
Guest
**Oh Ralph – what are you talking about.
Don’t tell us you see no difference if someone abuses a child, which Jesus Himself condemned in Mat 18,6 - even murders, or if someone steals something?
Don’t be foolish. The thread would otherwise loose quality
How would you see many verses that tell us about the difference of sin, like in 1John 5,17: All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.
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Don’t tell us you see no difference if someone abuses a child, which Jesus Himself condemned in Mat 18,6 - even murders, or if someone steals something?
Don’t be foolish. The thread would otherwise loose quality
How would you see many verses that tell us about the difference of sin, like in 1John 5,17: All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.
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ralphy
Guest
The sin that would lead you to death is the rejection of the Holy Spirit, that is not accepting the prompting of the Holy Spirit after you have heard and understood the gospel of salvation. We are born in sin and until we come to Christ through repentance through faith and trust Christ as our personal Savior and are covered by His blood, we will still be in our sin and sin cannot enter heaven. Jesus said, “you must be born again”, that is from above. Ralph
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Michael96
Guest
Ralph
That maybe what John means, or it may not be. John does not tell us in his letter, so we can only speculate (we should not try to read things into the passage that aren’t there). All that we can take from the letter directly is that there appear to be two key types of sin. I think the simple warning to us is to be especially careful about avoiding sin that could separate us from God. Stay close to God!
God bless
Michael
That maybe what John means, or it may not be. John does not tell us in his letter, so we can only speculate (we should not try to read things into the passage that aren’t there). All that we can take from the letter directly is that there appear to be two key types of sin. I think the simple warning to us is to be especially careful about avoiding sin that could separate us from God. Stay close to God!
God bless
Michael
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CentralFLJames
Guest
I am relieved to hear that you accept the teachings of your faith and apparently do avail yourself of the sacraments.
I hear your comments about a formula system seeming too legalistic. This is not unique to Catholics. We see this in the salvation formula systems of Protestants too “By Faith Alone you are Saved!” etc. It does sound very clinical in some respects. I remember that Baalam from the OT was trying to use God’s word against His people by selling advise to Israel’s enemies on how best to defeat the Jews. He believed in God at His word and imagined that somone could force God to hold to his word of punishing one for their sins by scheming to make Israel sin (through clever enticements to worship idols and through the allures and seductions of sensual women to marry outside the faith). But God is not mocked ( Galatians 6:7).
Let’s face the reality at hand. God gave the apostles a REAL apostolic authority to set up the conditions for judicial forgivness of sins when He gave them the loosing and binding authority. The Church IS FREE to establish its own criteria for BOTH loosing and for binding sins. Both sides of the equation are valid - though Catholics can’t normally imagine The Church ever desiring to not grant mercy and hold sins bound. But it in fact has this real authority and it DOES hold sins bound under some conditions. One of those conditions is “insincerity” of repentance. The Church leaves this to God to judge and while The Church permits imperfect contrition is DOES NOT condone blatant mockery to God - like for example a man habitually going out partying on Friday nights to have wild sex with loose women for fun then going to confession Sat. morning and confessing to “reset” till next weekend. No! God is NOT mocked and such a person is spiritually dead and not likely to escape hell if he died in this habitual abuse of the sacrament of confession. That is as grave as receiving Eucharist unworthily - a sacrilege. So too the Church can DENY the sacraments by excommunication (both explicitly and by automatic means) so that a person who is not a member of the Church can’t “game” the sacrament (like Ballam tried to do with God’s promise to chastise Israel if it sinned) and be forgiven while professing an anathemized heresy (e.g. all Protestant teachings).
So yes, there are certain necessary formula like semantics to the sacrament but this is to strengthen their credibility for teaching the faith. People are complex and not every one has common sense to know that God can not be mocked - and so we need explicit rules in the catechism to teach this sort of person and the rest of us need general guidelines that there are 2 distinctly different kinds of sin (venial and mortal) and the guidelines on how to discern between the two. Without some explicit “rules” everyone would be overly scrupulous or its opposite.
As far as the men you mentioned as having the appearances of “Christ’s light” I myself never think to judge a person’s soul. Outside of the Catholic Church I never assume that a title of “reverend” or “bishop” or “preacher” or “minister” etc. means anything at all special since heretical teaching can never gain one supernatural merit no matter how pleasant the personalities are. Ignorance just reduces severity of culpability for grave matter - it does not remove it. I have met many non-Catholics who outwardly appear very pleasing, kind, moral and “nice”. These seem to mirror Christ’s virtues. But it takes more than virtues and charisma to gain eternal beatitude - it takes a thing called supernatural grace. One can have the “philosophy” of Jesus in their hearts and get a natural blessing from that. But there is an eternity of difference between actual-grace and sanctifying-grace. We can use the prior but we must own the latter if we want to gain eternal beatitude.
Spirituality and salvation has less to do with “good feelings” and a smiling countenance than it has to do with being “right with God”. These other exterior appearances of virtues may or may not be manifest in all the elect - and some of the elect are called to suffer for the impostor Christians that are making a living selling snake oil and salvation formulas as substitutes for the real thing.
We all must never presume on God’s mercy and must work out our salvation with fear and trembling. No, I am with you; not a check-list rather a checkup and a regular maintenance program. Pray, pray, pray and repent often.
James
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garysibio
Guest
St. John was writing to believers. If what you say is true, then why would he be warning them about something they couldn’t do? Obviously your definition of sin leading to death is entirely unscriptural.
Gary
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ralphy
Guest
You know the whole picture in a nutshell is this. Adam and Eve sinned and were put out of the garden(paradise).From their sin, all of us are born in sin and are destination is Hell. In the old testament animals were sacrificed,a blood sacrifice as an atonement for sin. This went on until Christ the spotless Lamb came to die on the cross of Calvary, He shed His blood so that our sins could be forgiven. On the cross He said it is finished,(there will be no more sacrifice for sin). The price was paid,this is a free gift to those who will repent of their sin and accept Him as their personal Savior. Seeing that it is a free gift there is no work required to achieve it. If someone hands you a gift, it is not yours until you receive it. Christ wants you to come and receive this gift and live your life for Him. It is very simple, put your total trust in Jesus Christ,accept what He is offering you and let the Holy Spirit lead you. I did in 1977, what a blessing it has been in my life. If you are told that you must work for this salvation then it is not a gift. In christian love; Ralph
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Michael96
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Ralph - we don’t see the sacraments as work any more than opening a Christmas present is work.
And here I think there are two opposite dangers to avoid. The first is a legalistic attitude on behalf of a Catholic who goes through the motions because that is what Catholic teaching tells them to do (believing that salvation is a tick-box exercise), and the second is somehow thinking the sacraments are “work” and that we are trying to earn our way into heaven. Both extremes, to me, seem to entirely miss the point of the sacraments of them being a gift to help us draw closer to God (just as I imagine neither of us would describe reading the Bible as “work”).
And here I think there are two opposite dangers to avoid. The first is a legalistic attitude on behalf of a Catholic who goes through the motions because that is what Catholic teaching tells them to do (believing that salvation is a tick-box exercise), and the second is somehow thinking the sacraments are “work” and that we are trying to earn our way into heaven. Both extremes, to me, seem to entirely miss the point of the sacraments of them being a gift to help us draw closer to God (just as I imagine neither of us would describe reading the Bible as “work”).
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Jerry_Marino
Guest
what happens if you don’t keep these sacraments?
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Michael96
Guest
Personally, I think that depends on whether your intention is to walk away from Christ, or whether you are exploring (in good faith) another way to walk with Christ.
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ralphy
Guest
If I recall correctly, if one did not do their Easter dutys,they could be put out of the church. In fact some things you did not do could cause not to be buryed outside of consecrated ground. The sacrifice of the mass is not from scripture,Jesus said that there is no more sacrifice for sin. Many things that I just took for granted and done them came to light when I got into Gods word and seen the truth. Ralph
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Jerry_Marino
Guest
yeah, but according to canon law what happens?
what does the church teach on the seven sacraments?
hey mike on the humorous side, are you a politician?
your answer sounded like a good politician i once new not personally though.
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Michael96
Guest
I’ll let others cover that - I stick to my personal views and try to not to speak for the Church as a whole.
Does that mean you think I was dodging the question
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Jerry_Marino
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i love you man
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Jerry-Jet
Guest
The scriptures say “the just man falls seven times a day”.
How could someone be just and fall seven times a day?
Well a person wouldn’t be just if they mortally sinned seven times a day–they COULD still be just if they VENIALLY sinned seven times a day.
Sins “not unto death” are venial sins–Jesus does not leave us when we venially sin.
Jesus does leave us when we mortally sin.
And yes folks it is possible for someone who isn’t Catholic and knows nothing of the Catholic faith–one who is invicibly ignorant of it to mortally sin.
How are those people reconciled to God?
We know that if they are perfectly contrite for their sins that they are reconciled to God.
What if they are not perfectly contrite for their mortal sin but are imperfectly contite yet still confess to God?
We do not know.
We can speculate that possibly they would be reconciled to God and avoid Hell if God who knows everything and is perfect judge would know whether they would seek sacramental confession if they weren’t invicibly ignorant of the need for sacramental confession and would avail themselves of it if they did know the Catholic faith.
So see God can work outside the sacraments–He is not bound by them.
But for those who do know the truth of the Catholic faith–they must either be perfectly contrite for their mortal sin–make an act of contrition if they die before making it to sacramental confession–or avail themselves of sacramental confession.
The bottom line is that for ALL people Christ must be living within them and they must be in a state of grace when they die or they will go to Hell.
God can judge who has mortally sinned or not and who is perfectly contrite or not and who intends or would intend if they weren’t invincibly ignorant to avail themselves of confession–don’t worry–God who knows all has everything covered!
Jesus said that God hears the prayer “Have mercy on me Lord a sinner.”
He hears that prayer of the perfectly contrite and He also hears that prayer of those in sacramental confession who may be imperfectly contrite and He hears that prayer of those that are invincibly ignorant of the Catholic faith.
God does not hear that prayer of those who would reject what His Catholic Church teaches if they were to have knowledge of its truth.
If one wonders if they are invincibly ignorant or not they aren’t!
They can’t fool God and do not have the invicibly ignorant excuse!
How could someone be just and fall seven times a day?
Well a person wouldn’t be just if they mortally sinned seven times a day–they COULD still be just if they VENIALLY sinned seven times a day.
Sins “not unto death” are venial sins–Jesus does not leave us when we venially sin.
Jesus does leave us when we mortally sin.
And yes folks it is possible for someone who isn’t Catholic and knows nothing of the Catholic faith–one who is invicibly ignorant of it to mortally sin.
How are those people reconciled to God?
We know that if they are perfectly contrite for their sins that they are reconciled to God.
What if they are not perfectly contrite for their mortal sin but are imperfectly contite yet still confess to God?
We do not know.
We can speculate that possibly they would be reconciled to God and avoid Hell if God who knows everything and is perfect judge would know whether they would seek sacramental confession if they weren’t invicibly ignorant of the need for sacramental confession and would avail themselves of it if they did know the Catholic faith.
So see God can work outside the sacraments–He is not bound by them.
But for those who do know the truth of the Catholic faith–they must either be perfectly contrite for their mortal sin–make an act of contrition if they die before making it to sacramental confession–or avail themselves of sacramental confession.
The bottom line is that for ALL people Christ must be living within them and they must be in a state of grace when they die or they will go to Hell.
God can judge who has mortally sinned or not and who is perfectly contrite or not and who intends or would intend if they weren’t invincibly ignorant to avail themselves of confession–don’t worry–God who knows all has everything covered!
Jesus said that God hears the prayer “Have mercy on me Lord a sinner.”
He hears that prayer of the perfectly contrite and He also hears that prayer of those in sacramental confession who may be imperfectly contrite and He hears that prayer of those that are invincibly ignorant of the Catholic faith.
God does not hear that prayer of those who would reject what His Catholic Church teaches if they were to have knowledge of its truth.
If one wonders if they are invincibly ignorant or not they aren’t!
They can’t fool God and do not have the invicibly ignorant excuse!
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Philthy
Guest
The Sacrifice of the Mass precedes Scripture Ralphy. The Sacrifice of the Mass is the Sacrifice of Calvary. It is an eternal Sacrifice made present and applied throughout time. Just as the Sacrifice of Calvary is made present and applied every time someone “repents and believes”. You do believe that that Sacrifice of Calvary is the basis for the forgiveness of sins and that when someone “confesses Jesus as Lord” they are saved, right? How is that belief any different than the Mass? It isnt, really. You simply havent received particularly good information. Im sure your intentions are good however you have much to learn. Humility is an assett in this regard.
Blessings
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sodak
Guest
Is it possible to refuse a gift?
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Bruno_Schulz
Guest
**One can easily refuse any gift.
The gift of Jesus Christ still is a free gift to those who – as you Ralph, said yourself:
“those who will repent of their sin and accept Him as their personal Saviour”
so, there is something you have to do for this free gift: Believe, repentance, penance and deeds: “By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?”
It is wrong to say Jesus salvation is not a gift, because you have to work for it; because you can’t compare the salvation with whatever you ever could give to gain this salvation, respectively must do for it; such as believe, repentance, penance and deeds of love.
It’s like a father who presents his son a car, if the son works hard to make his exam. The car still is a extraordinary present, even when son has to work for this gift.
“Philthy” mentioned the Holy Priest Vincent Pallotti.
I portraited Pallotti for a Medal and for a monument in Spain. You see a pict of the portrait I made after Pallotti’s death-mask I still have here, when you go to my late forum and click on Gallerie
Gott-Kirche-Glaube.isthier.de
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The gift of Jesus Christ still is a free gift to those who – as you Ralph, said yourself:
“those who will repent of their sin and accept Him as their personal Saviour”
so, there is something you have to do for this free gift: Believe, repentance, penance and deeds: “By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?”
It is wrong to say Jesus salvation is not a gift, because you have to work for it; because you can’t compare the salvation with whatever you ever could give to gain this salvation, respectively must do for it; such as believe, repentance, penance and deeds of love.
It’s like a father who presents his son a car, if the son works hard to make his exam. The car still is a extraordinary present, even when son has to work for this gift.
“Philthy” mentioned the Holy Priest Vincent Pallotti.
I portraited Pallotti for a Medal and for a monument in Spain. You see a pict of the portrait I made after Pallotti’s death-mask I still have here, when you go to my late forum and click on Gallerie
Gott-Kirche-Glaube.isthier.de
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