SPLIT: Is Confession not necessary?

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ralphy said:
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The price was paid,this is a free gift to those who will repent of their sin and accept Him as their personal Savior. Seeing that it is a free gift there is no work required to achieve it. If someone hands you a gift, it is not yours until you receive it. Christ wants you to come and receive this gift and live your life for Him. It is very simple, put your total trust in Jesus Christ,accept what He is offering you and let the Holy Spirit lead you. I did in 1977, what a blessing it has been in my life. If you are told that you must work for this salvation then it is not a gift. In christian love; Ralph
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Ralph, ALL Catholics put their trust in Jesus and accept what He is offering us at Baptism.

That was a free gift and we all took it. Now we have to do something with it and use it.

We "are told that you must work for this salvation then it is not a gift?
We Catholics don’t believe we can work our way into heaven if that’s what you mean but we certaily have to put one foot in front of the other to carry our crosses and walk to the promised land - don’t you think Ralphy?

Ralphy, did you ever notice the book in the bible called “The ACTS of the Apostles”?
If you know your bible why do you suppose we Catholics put this book into the bible and why the Protestants bible has the same book? Ralphy, it is because ALL THE APOSTLES DID ACTS - AKA WORKS! LOL - Luther could not take this book out of the bible without looking like an academic bum (which is actually what he was). But so many Protestants can’t see the forest for the trees or more to the counter-point - ‘can’t see the books for the bible’. LOL - WORKS is embedded as a MAJOR NT BOOK. WORKS is PART of the bible. Even reading it is a work.

For Pete sake Ralphy, open your eyes and read the bible - it is full of works.

Why are you so paranoid about works? A little work never hurt anyone.

Let me ask you this. If I exceed the requirements and trust in Jesus to save me and then just for the fun of it want to do some good ol work to be nice is that work going to make me lose my salvation? If Catholics want to do some charity work is that going to make them lose their salvation? Since when was doing more than what was required (giving you the benefit of the doubt for argument sake) grounds for being put in jail? 🤷

James
 
CentralFLJames said:
Ralph, ALL Catholics put their trust in Jesus and accept what He is offering us at Baptism.

That was a free gift and we all took it. Now we have to do something with it and use it.

We "are told that you must work for this salvation then it is not a gift?
We Catholics don’t believe we can work our way into heaven if that’s what you mean but we certaily have to put one foot in front of the other to carry our crosses and walk to the promised land - don’t you think Ralphy?

Ralphy, did you ever notice the book in the bible called “The ACTS of the Apostles”?
If you know your bible why do you suppose we Catholics put this book into the bible and why the Protestants bible has the same book? Ralphy, it is because ALL THE APOSTLES DID ACTS - AKA WORKS! LOL - Luther could not take this book out of the bible without looking like an academic bum (which is actually what he was). But so many Protestants can’t see the forest for the trees or more to the counter-point - ‘can’t see the books for the bible’. LOL - WORKS is embedded as a MAJOR NT BOOK. WORKS is PART of the bible. Even reading it is a work.

For Pete sake Ralphy, open your eyes and read the bible - it is full of works.

Why are you so paranoid about works? A little work never hurt anyone.

Let me ask you this. If I exceed the requirements and trust in Jesus to save me and then just for the fun of it want to do some good ol work to be nice is that work going to make me lose my salvation? If Catholics want to do some charity work is that going to make them lose their salvation? Since when was doing more than what was required (giving you the benefit of the doubt for argument sake) grounds for being put in jail? 🤷

James
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Again I say read Eph 2:8/9,it’s as plain as day," NOT OF WORKS", works follow salvation. Our mandate is to be a witness for Christ. Ralph
 
CentralFLJames said:
Ralph, ALL Catholics put their trust in Jesus and accept what He is offering us at Baptism.

That was a free gift and we all took it. Now we have to do something with it and use it.

We "are told that you must work for this salvation then it is not a gift?
We Catholics don’t believe we can work our way into heaven if that’s what you mean but we certaily have to put one foot in front of the other to carry our crosses and walk to the promised land - don’t you think Ralphy?

Ralphy, did you ever notice the book in the bible called “The ACTS of the Apostles”?
If you know your bible why do you suppose we Catholics put this book into the bible and why the Protestants bible has the same book? Ralphy, it is because ALL THE APOSTLES DID ACTS - AKA WORKS! LOL - Luther could not take this book out of the bible without looking like an academic bum (which is actually what he was). But so many Protestants can’t see the forest for the trees or more to the counter-point - ‘can’t see the books for the bible’. LOL - WORKS is embedded as a MAJOR NT BOOK. WORKS is PART of the bible. Even reading it is a work.

For Pete sake Ralphy, open your eyes and read the bible - it is full of works.

Why are you so paranoid about works? A little work never hurt anyone.

Let me ask you this. If I exceed the requirements and trust in Jesus to save me and then just for the fun of it want to do some good ol work to be nice is that work going to make me lose my salvation? If Catholics want to do some charity work is that going to make them lose their salvation? Since when was doing more than what was required (giving you the benefit of the doubt for argument sake) grounds for being put in jail? 🤷

James
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Baptism follows salvation,it is a sign that you have been saved and are showing publicly that you will follow the Lord. Infant baptism is not in scripture. Ralph
 
ralphy said:
Again I say read Eph 2:8/9,it’s as plain as day," NOT OF WORKS", works follow salvation. Our mandate is to be a witness for Christ. Ralph
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No one here is saying that we earn our salvation. That is impossible. But you don’t understand how Paul uses the word “faith.” It is more that just an assent to a set of truths. That is the kind of faith that, according to James, demons have since they believe that God is one (James 2:19).

Don’t you like Eph 2:10? You keep trying to pretend it doesn’t exist. I know it destroys your entire argument but wouldn’t you rather be true to Scripture than maintain your erroneous beliefs?

Gary
 
ralphy said:
Again I say read Eph 2:8/9,it’s as plain as day," NOT OF WORKS", works follow salvation. Our mandate is to be a witness for Christ. Ralph
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Well Ralphy, if you insist on having it your way then I am afraid to tell you that this just proves that sola scriptura is a bogus teaching. Tell me, how do you escape the co-dependency between work and faith if you have to first do a work to read the bible so you can believe and have faith?

Does this homework to learn about Christianity not count as work?

It sure seems like you have a chicken-and-egg dilemma here - are you sure that there is not something else that happens before faith or works?

Grace maybe? 😉

How do you Protestants prevent each other from “boasting” about being able to gain heaven by a work of speed-reading the bible and through superior reading comprehension?

And since you must think you are ‘saved’ can you please tell me by what work of logic and reason you have reconciled Ephesians 2:8-9 with James 2:24 while believing by Faith Alone when James contradicts it?

James 2:24
See how a person is justified by works and* not by faith alone**.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so no one may boast. *

I think I know what you mean even if you did not say it rightly. It all starts with grace and then one is able to have faith, be baptised and then works flow.

But the error of Protestantism is being fearful of works and down playing them entirely and the FALSE teachings is BY FAITH ALONE. But I really don’t think any Protestants really believe this anyway and just say it out of habbit to pretend you are different than Catholics.

James
 
we don’t downplay works, my friend. we know that through are salvation we were created to do good works(v.10). it is because of Christ we are able to do the works set out for each one of us who is a believer. the works are not a requirement of our salvation but without works one’s faith is dead that is not to imply that works is needed for salvation but once our faith in Christ is relevant then the works become evident.

here is an example of what i mean down to the human level:
years ago i moved from the big city to the country town i now live in (san antonio), in search of a job, i stumbled across an old friend. my friend ask me if i was interested in working for the company she worked and i said with a resounding yes! (national company) so she pulled some strings and soon afterwards i was given the job where til this day i am employed. though she is not the boss sort of speak but still with some authority over me and others, out of gratitude for her getting me in, i go beyond the call of duty, i don’t do this to keep my job but just to show her that even though i may not have been worthy for such a job, i am going to honor her with my work.

Jesus died for me on the Cross though i wasn’t worthy when i stumbled upon the Cross and He offered me Salvation, i answered with a resounding, yes! to this point i had done nothing to earn Salvation, all i did at the Cross was ask for forgiveness and put my trust in what He did on the Cross, now out gratitude inspired by His Holy Spirit stirring within me, i move to do the good works, not to keep my Salvation cause to begin with i did nothing to earn my Salvation therefore there is nothing i can do to keep it, i stand on His promises, i rely or depend on Him keeping me.

God bless you.
 
Jerry_Marino said:
we don’t downplay works, my friend. we know that through are salvation we were created to do good works(v.10). it is because of Christ we are able to do the works set out for each one of us who is a believer. the works are not a requirement of our salvation but without works one’s faith is dead that is not to imply that works is needed for salvation but once our faith in Christ is relevant then the works become evident.

here is an example of what i mean down to the human level:
years ago i moved from the big city to the country town i now live in (san antonio), in search of a job, i stumbled across an old friend. my friend ask me if i was interested in working for the company she worked and i said with a resounding yes! (national company) so she pulled some strings and soon afterwards i was given the job where til this day i am employed. though she is not the boss sort of speak but still with some authority over me and others, out of gratitude for her getting me in, i go beyond the call of duty, i don’t do this to keep my job but just to show her that even though i may not have been worthy for such a job, i am going to honor her with my work.

Jesus died for me on the Cross though i wasn’t worthy when i stumbled upon the Cross and He offered me Salvation, i answered with a resounding, yes! to this point i had done nothing to earn Salvation, all i did at the Cross was ask for forgiveness and put my trust in what He did on the Cross, now out gratitude inspired by His Holy Spirit stirring within me, i move to do the good works, not to keep my Salvation cause to begin with i did nothing to earn my Salvation therefore there is nothing i can do to keep it, i stand on His promises, i rely or depend on Him keeping me.

God bless you.
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Great example. This is what I took from it.
  1. Does your friend pick you up and take you to your job every day or do you drive there yourself?
  2. If you decided not to go to your job for a week or so what would happen?
Your friend got you a job (Jesus/grace), you accepted it (faith) and drive there every day (working your salvation out on a daily basis).

If you stop going to your job (fall into sin / reject what was given to you) you will loose your job (loose your salvation).

Lux
 
Lux_Caelum said:
Great example. This is what I took from it.
  1. Does your friend pick you up and take you to your job every day or do you drive there yourself?
  2. If you decided not to go to your job for a week or so what would happen?
Your friend got you a job (Jesus/grace), you accepted it (faith) and drive there every day (working your salvation out on a daily basis).

If you stop going to your job (fall into sin / reject what was given to you) you will loose your job (loose your salvation).

Lux
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:clapping: Oh, well said! I’ve never thought of it that way before. 👍
 
garysibio said:
No one here is saying that we earn our salvation. That is impossible. But you don’t understand how Paul uses the word “faith.” It is more that just an assent to a set of truths. That is the kind of faith that, according to James, demons have since they believe that God is one (James 2:19).

Don’t you like Eph 2:10? You keep trying to pretend it doesn’t exist. I know it destroys your entire argument but wouldn’t you rather be true to Scripture than maintain your erroneous beliefs?

Gary
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The result of salvation is that we are His workmanship,the handiwork of God. In salvation we are a new creation, and the object of this new creation is found in the phrase,“for good works”. While it is true that we are not saved by “good works”, it is equally true that we are saved “for” good works. Good works are not the root but the fruit. We do not work in order to be saved, buy because we are saved. Eph 2:10. Ralph
 
no i wouldn’t, go on short term or long term disability:p

as for me working out my salvation; we just have a different concept of this verse. it is not working towards my salvation it is being watered down by the word every day and what i find that you left out the other part of the verse as to who is actually doing the work.

so the readers can see:

Phillipians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

*12 So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.13 For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work.*NAB same thing.

John 16:7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.

*7 But I tell you the truth, it is better for you that I go. For if I do not go, the Advocate will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.*NAB same thing

John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

*26 The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name–he will teach you everything and remind you of all that told you.*NAB SAME THING

now who does the work?

maybe you have been taught that you do the work, i don’t know but the protestant and catholic bible state the same thing in bold letters as to who does the work.

i guess the question would be don’t you believe God’s promise?
 
Jerry_Marino said:
we don’t downplay works, my friend. we know that through are salvation we were created to do good works(v.10). it is because of Christ we are able to do the works set out for each one of us who is a believer. the works are not a requirement of our salvation but without works one’s faith is dead that is not to imply that works is needed for salvation but once our faith in Christ is relevant then the works become evident.

here is an example of what i mean down to the human level:
years ago i moved from the big city to the country town i now live in (san antonio), in search of a job, i stumbled across an old friend. my friend ask me if i was interested in working for the company she worked and i said with a resounding yes! (national company) so she pulled some strings and soon afterwards i was given the job where til this day i am employed. though she is not the boss sort of speak but still with some authority over me and others, out of gratitude for her getting me in, i go beyond the call of duty, i don’t do this to keep my job but just to show her that even though i may not have been worthy for such a job, i am going to honor her with my work.

Jesus died for me on the Cross though i wasn’t worthy when i stumbled upon the Cross and He offered me Salvation, i answered with a resounding, yes! to this point i had done nothing to earn Salvation, all i did at the Cross was ask for forgiveness and put my trust in what He did on the Cross, now out gratitude inspired by His Holy Spirit stirring within me, i move to do the good works, not to keep my Salvation cause to begin with i did nothing to earn my Salvation therefore there is nothing i can do to keep it, i stand on His promises, i rely or depend on Him keeping me.

God bless you.
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A very good statement. Salvation,then works. Amen Ralph
 
ralphy said:
The result of salvation is that we are His workmanship,the handiwork of God. In salvation we are a new creation, and the object of this new creation is found in the phrase,“for good works”. While it is true that we are not saved by “good works”, it is equally true that we are saved “for” good works. Good works are not the root but the fruit. We do not work in order to be saved, buy because we are saved. Eph 2:10. Ralph
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Amen & AMEN
 
ralphy said:
The result of salvation is that we are His workmanship,the handiwork of God. In salvation we are a new creation, and the object of this new creation is found in the phrase,“for good works”. While it is true that we are not saved by “good works”, it is equally true that we are saved “for” good works. Good works are not the root but the fruit. We do not work in order to be saved, buy because we are saved. Eph 2:10. Ralph
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Close, but no cigar.

The works in Eph 2:10 are not the result of our salvation, they are the result of the same grace that saves us. The works, which are actually God working through us, is inseperable from the salvation. It’s like a light bulb. When the electricty (grace) flows theough it, it produces light (salvation) and heat (works). If the works aren’t present there is no salvation (James 2:14, 17-18).

Gary
 
Jerry_Marino said:
no i wouldn’t, go on short term or long term disability:p

as for me working out my salvation; we just have a different concept of this verse. it is not working towards my salvation it is being watered down by the word every day and what i find that you left out the other part of the verse as to who is actually doing the work.

now who does the work?

maybe you have been taught that you do the work, i don’t know but the protestant and catholic bible state the same thing in bold letters as to who does the work.

i guess the question would be don’t you believe God’s promise?
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Jerry I don’t think anyone is challenging the verse translations - they are all close enough to get the idea across. I don’t really understand your issue with what has been said.

Catholics believe that it is God literally who is at work “inwardly” through grace that is infused to us through initial justification (or restored by confession if we are repenting from grave sin). But are you saying that the Christian has no responsibility to cooperate with grace?

Catholics understand that the divine “work” that is taking place within us is an ongoing sanctification of our souls. God is the author of that work but we must cooperate with it by staying out of the occasion of sin and temptation and by doing what God wants us to do.

Let me ask you this. The bible book “The Acts of The Apostles”. Does the bible lie in calling it an act of the apostles? Should we rename this “The Acts of God” so that the words that you reference in the bible are consistent with the title of the book?
Should we rename Paul’s Epistles as God’s Epistles?

Should we just combine the 4 gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) into one book and call it “The Gospel of God”

Who’s works are these? 😉

James
 
CentralFLJames said:
Jerry I don’t think anyone is challenging the verse translations - they are all close enough to get the idea across. I don’t really understand your issue with what has been said.

Catholics believe that it is God literally who is at work “inwardly” through grace that is infused to us through initial justification (or restored by confession if we are repenting from grave sin). But are you saying that the Christian has no responsibility to cooperate with grace?

Catholics understand that the divine “work” that is taking place within us is an ongoing sanctification of our souls. God is the author of that work but we must cooperate with it by staying out of the occasion of sin and temptation and by doing what God wants us to do.

Let me ask you this. The bible book “The Acts of The Apostles”. Does the bible lie in calling it an act of the apostles? Should we rename this “The Acts of God” so that the words that you reference in the bible are consistent with the title of the book?
Should we rename Paul’s Epistles as God’s Epistles?

Should we just combine the 4 gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) into one book and call it “The Gospel of God”

Who’s works are these? 😉

James
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you win
 
**Believe and faith has nothing to do with a bet you win or loose, nothing with if someone is right or wrong.
The one and only thing that makes sense about believe, is ones very personal relationship to God.

This relation can only be good, when one loves God and his next as we read in Math 5:24.

Believe is actually something not ascertainable with reason alone, though it’s definitely not irrational. But believe takes the whole person. Body and soul, brain and heart – all this kind of “held together” in the mentioned love to God and our next.

As soon as we realize this conception of causal relations, the question of
“Is Confession not necessary?”
is as pointless as irrelevant.
it ought to be “Confession IS necessary”"
For if we “touch God” directly – which is the case when we pray, first step is to humble oneself. Humble to be worthy to get as near as possible to God here in lifetime. Therefore confession, repentance and reception of the Holy Sacraments is our natural desire. It’s only then, that we can live in joy, for joy of Life can’t be gained without God – without believe.

If we’d go to speak to the King or Queen or the President; what would we do to get ready to do so?
How much more that all theese humans is God?!
**
 
40.png
ralphy:
Baptism …is … showing publicly that you will follow the Lord.
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This is not biblical. When Philip and the eunuch were proceeding along and the eunuch came to understand the Scriptures’ fulfillment in Jesus he wanted to be baptized immediately - even though there was not crowd to “publicly” show. Acts 8:38" As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch *said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?” This is Philips big chance to speak of the need to publicly show allegiance to Christ. That’s not what happened though. Philip’s only requirement was "“If you believe with all your heart, you may.” In addition, Paul’s jailor and entire household were baptized in the middle of the night. Hardly an occasion for public demonstration.
Infant baptism is not in scripture.
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Neither is baptism as a “public profession of faith”, but that doesnt seem to deter you with respect to that belief. Sounds like a double standard to me. And for the record, infant baptism is not condemned in Scripture. We simply dont know whether when “whole housholds” were baptized whether that included infants and children. We know for certain from the records of the earliest Christians that infants were being baptized and the question was not whether it was to happen, but how soon…
 
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