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ralphy
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I just want to make sure I read you right. Salvation is free, you do not work for it,it is a gift. Our works follow salvation as we walk with the Lord. Ralph
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PJM
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17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to him, “Which?” And Jesus said, "You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself."**
Friends why would Jesus who is god share all this, except to lead you to salvation:shrug:
To my dear friends in Christ,
I dislike being the one to break the bad news to you, however in Chrsitian Charity I must.
Redeemption as I have said reteatedly is completely seperate from the issue of Salvation. You can continue in your believe and take your chances. or do the prudent thing and check it out in God’s Word, His Bible for yourselves.
Redeemption is a direct intervention and reponce by the God that Created all of humanity, to make Heaven Possible.
Heaven had been blocked from the Orginal Sins of Adam and Eve, so from that time, to the Ressurection of Christ, no one couls enter Heaven! So Redeemption is now a done deal!
If Salvation was assured why the following?
Heb. 5: 9 and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, 10* being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizede"
2 Tim. 3 " 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."
2 Cor.7 " 9 As it is, I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because you were grieved into repenting; for you felt a godly grief, so that you suffered no loss through us. 10 **For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation **and brings no regret, but worldly grief produces death."
Eph. 6:“17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 Pray at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints,”
1 Pt. 2:“1 So put away all malice and all guile and insincerity and envy and all slander. 2 Like newborn babes, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation;”
Phil. 2: “12Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation”
Rom.1:16" For I am not ashamed of the gospel: it is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek"
**John 3:5 "Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. **
Jn. 20:"1 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23* If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” **
michel
Friends you can nolonger pretend to not know the truth. Pray about it, because Chrsit will Judge you as knowing His TRUTH.
Friends why would Jesus who is god share all this, except to lead you to salvation:shrug:
To my dear friends in Christ,
I dislike being the one to break the bad news to you, however in Chrsitian Charity I must.
Redeemption as I have said reteatedly is completely seperate from the issue of Salvation. You can continue in your believe and take your chances. or do the prudent thing and check it out in God’s Word, His Bible for yourselves.
Redeemption is a direct intervention and reponce by the God that Created all of humanity, to make Heaven Possible.
Heaven had been blocked from the Orginal Sins of Adam and Eve, so from that time, to the Ressurection of Christ, no one couls enter Heaven! So Redeemption is now a done deal!
If Salvation was assured why the following?
Heb. 5: 9 and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, 10* being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizede"
2 Tim. 3 " 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."
2 Cor.7 " 9 As it is, I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because you were grieved into repenting; for you felt a godly grief, so that you suffered no loss through us. 10 **For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation **and brings no regret, but worldly grief produces death."
Eph. 6:“17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 Pray at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints,”
1 Pt. 2:“1 So put away all malice and all guile and insincerity and envy and all slander. 2 Like newborn babes, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation;”
Phil. 2: “12Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation”
Rom.1:16" For I am not ashamed of the gospel: it is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek"
**John 3:5 "Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. **
All are redeemed but only those who cooperate with God’s mandate; are Baptized, Keep all of His Commandments, are charitable and do good works. **Read James Chapter 2 **
Mt. 16: 17* And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18* And I tell you, you are Peter, * and on this rock * I will build my church, and the powers of death * shall not prevail against it. 19* ** I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven”**.
Jn. 20:"1 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23* If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” **
michel
Friends you can nolonger pretend to not know the truth. Pray about it, because Chrsit will Judge you as knowing His TRUTH.
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cazayoux
Guest
GRACE is free.
We respond with FAITH (an action word).
Christ redeemed all men by his death on the cross.
However, not all men are saved.
In fact, a saved person can lose their salvation.
Salvation is not a one time thing.
As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5-8),
but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12),
and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9-10, 1 Cor. 3:12-15).
I am redeemed! … and like the Apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12),
with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11-13)–
but not with a false “absolute” assurance about my own ability to persevere (2 Cor. 13:5).
And I do all this as the Catholic Church has taught, unchanged, from the time of Christ.
As we agree from the car example.
Works are what we do WITH the gift.
However, if you are given the gift and do NOT do the works that God has set aside for you, you will lose your salvation.
michel
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Iamnotafraid
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CentralFLJames
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Hold on Ralphy - lookie here and see that we can get a MERIT or REWARD for DOING righteous deeds:
*Matthew 6:1
“(But) take care not to perform righteous deeds in order that people may see them; otherwise, you will have no recompense from your heavenly Father.”
Matthew 6:20
“But store up treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor decay destroys, nor thieves break in and steal”.*
The first verse makes it VERY clear that God will give us MERIT for all righteous deeds if they are done for God (in secret) and if not just to gain the attention and esteem of our fellow man.
Matthew’s sermon gives us a warning against doing good in order to be seen and gives three examples (alms-giving [Matthew 6:2-4], prayer [Matthew 6:5-15], and fasting [Matthew 6:16-18]. In each example, the conduct of the hypocrites (Matthew 6:2) is contrasted with that demanded of the disciples. The sayings about reward found here and elsewhere (Matthew 5:12, 46; 10:41-42) show that this is a genuine element of Christian moral exhortation – we SHOULD WORK by fasting, prayer and alms giving!! Possibly to emphasize the difference between the Christian idea of reward and that of the hypocrites, the evangelist uses two different Greek verbs to express the rewarding of the disciples and that of the hypocrites; in the latter case it is the verb apecho, a commercial term for giving a receipt for what has been paid in full (Matthew 6:2, 5, 16).
So you see Ralphy God’s word tells us that merit CAN BE gained in heaven and credited to us for “reward”. If we did these works on our own powers (which we agree is impossible since merit requires grace) then it would be the “hypocritical” sort of reward and be payment. But works and deeds performed through grace are indeed credited to “us” uniquely and are individually rewardable.
So, fast, pray, give alms and build up your treasure in heaven Ralphy - where no man can rob it from you and God will pay you generously and with interest when you go to see Him after your job here on earth is over.
James
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ralphy
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Read Eph 1:13 to see if we can lose our salvation. Ralph
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ralphy
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Righteous deeds after salvation. Ralph
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PJM
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Ralph my friend,
I am so very grateful that my “job” is not to Convert you or anyone else.
As a conduit for God, walking in the Spirit of The Lord, I’m just a simple farmer planting seeds.
Happy Birthday Ralph, enjoy while you can!
Oh, by the way, were there “strings attached” to your birthday present? Lot’s of GIFTS come “with strings attached”
:shrug:Love and prayers my friend,
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ralphy
Guest
And the strings are? RalphRalph my friend,
I am so very grateful that my “job” is not to Convert you or anyone else.
As a conduit for God, walking in the Spirit of The Lord, I’m just a simple farmer planting seeds.
Happy Birthday Ralph, enjoy while you can!
Oh, by the way, were there “strings attached” to your birthday present? Lot’s of GIFTS come “with strings attached”
Love and prayers my friend,
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edjco
Guest
That’s cute Ralph, but did you get past that passage and read the next? I doubt it. Here’s 13 and 14:
“13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised holy Spirit”
and here’s the part you ignored:
“14 which is the first installment of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s possession, to the praise of his glory.”
So when you made the first installment on your house note, you were finished?
I guess that would be “Sola Mortgatura Paymentium”.
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cazayoux
Guest
We’ll have to start calling you the one-verse-wonder.
Eph 1:11-14 (RSV)
[11] In him, according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will,
[12] we who first hoped in Christ have been destined and appointed to live for the praise of his glory.
[13] **In him **you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
[14] which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
I’ll ask you … what does it mean to be ‘in him’ (in Christ)?
You will definitely want to read Romans chapter 8.
If you are ‘in Christ’ and then sin … you are no longer ‘in Christ’.
Ephesians 1 is the promise only to those ‘in him’.
We strive to remain ‘in him’ or we lose the assurance.
context. context. context.
michel
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CentralFLJames
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You are playing word game now Ralphy. Salvation is not completed until God judges you saved and worthy of His eternal beatitude. THEN you are rewarded with the crown of salvation. Therefor what you say is wrong since you have an incorrect understanding of salvation as simultaneously a past, present and future event and therefor you could never do a work of faith until you were in heaven since that is when your salivation is completed.
I hate to tell you this Ralph - but you are “not saved” until your life is over and God judges you saved. You are just inventing terms and contexts to suit your own strange theology that is not supported by scripture. There are over 200 bible verses which anyone alone utterly defeats the error of OSAS. The apostles never taught OSAS and no one in the early church did either.
James
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cazayoux
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Thought I’d reply again with another approach.
If you are a Christian.
By your definition, you’ve heard the gospel and made the choice to believe, and maybe even been a witness for Him.
You are a Christian.
You say that a Christian cannot lose his salvation.
Even if you are a Christian that does not provide for his family, would you still say that salvation is guaranteed? … don’t answer too quickly.
There is just TOO much scripture you have to ignore to believe that salvation cannot be lost.
I’ll give one.
This is from the first letter of Timothy.
1 Tim 5:8
[8] If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
The text is talking about people that are already Christians.
Do you believe disowning the faith and being worse than an unbeliever gets you heaven-bound?
I honestly don’t think so.
okay … one more …
Matt 6:14-15
[14] For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you;
[15] but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
If God does not forgive your trespasses, do you really think you can enter heaven?
(nothing unclean shall enter heaven - Rev 21:27)
I honestly don’t think so.
I have many more … if required to drive the point home.
You have to have faith to be saved. Faith is an action word. Faith means following the Word of God … and the Word of God written tells us we have to DO things or we will not be saved.
Now … I doubt you looked up and read the scripture verses I sited in my last message so I’ll replay it for you.
Rom 8:24 For in this hope we were saved. …
Eph 2:5-8 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God –
1 Cor 1:8 who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Cor 2:15 For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing,
Phil 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
Rom 5:9-10 Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
1 Cor 3:12-15 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw – each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
Phil 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11-13)–
Rom 5:2 Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God.
2 Tim 2:11-13 The saying is sure: If we have died with him, we shall also live with him; if we endure, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us; if we are faithless, he remains faithful – for he cannot deny himself.
2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are holding to your faith. Test yourselves. Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you? – unless indeed you fail to meet the test!
michel
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Daedelus76
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I have a question… if Jesus says “What sins you forgive are forgiven, and what sins you retain are retained”, how is that not arbitrary? Shouldn’t God alone decide what sins are forgiven and retained?
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cazayoux
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Crazy ain’t it.
We see in scripture that Jesus gave power to the apostles to heal, drive out demons, and yes, forgive sins… not of their own power though.
michel
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sodak
Guest
And still waiting…
The Catholic Church teaches that we are saved by God’s Grace. Absolutely nothing else. It also teaches that God desires us to be with him for all eternity in heaven. While some will spurn God’s gift, that is never his desire, and he waits anxiously for us to love him back.
We access God’s grace normally through faith in Jesus. For those who cannot do this, either because of age, comatose, handicap, whatever, they receive God’s grace through extra-normal means. Obviously if they are not capable of faith, we trust in a loving God to meet them at their needs and grant them the necessary grace.
All of this hinges, of course, on a loving God who desires us to be with him forever. For a God to create beings for the sole purpose of damning them to Hell without a chance, then heaven might not be such a nice place to be. Fortunately, God is not at all like that. If he loved us enough to send his own Son to die for us brutally, then we can place all of our hope and confidence in him to help us, especially those who cannot access Grace through the normal channels.
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brian231
Guest
Confession to a priest is not necessary. Just because someone goes through seminary school does not give them the right to forgive sins. Ask God directly to forgive your sins. There is absolutely no biblical or tradition that says it is necessary to confess your sins to a priest. This is a heretical teaching.
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Bruno_Schulz
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Jesus Himself gave after His resurrection His apostles and their successors the mandate to forgive sins in John 20,23:
Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."
And you dare to call this heretical teaching.
No question you call papacy heretical too, even though this too was founded by Jesus Christ. (The Pope too goes to confession by the way).
OK – we know, to those Christians Ltd. All the bible is heretical teaching - right only when reformed their way – but they of course are absolutely right.
This would be terribly funny, if it wouldn’t be so sad!
**
So you too are member of limited believe? In other words The Christian Ltd. & Co.
Jesus Himself gave after His resurrection His apostles and their successors the mandate to forgive sins in John 20,23:
Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."
And you dare to call this heretical teaching.
No question you call papacy heretical too, even though this too was founded by Jesus Christ. (The Pope too goes to confession by the way).
OK – we know, to those Christians Ltd. All the bible is heretical teaching - right only when reformed their way – but they of course are absolutely right.
This would be terribly funny, if it wouldn’t be so sad!
**
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CentralFLJames
Guest
You are the one preaching error here brian. The very comparison to seminary school demonstrates that you do not understand where the authority comes from. Yes, one may ask God directly for forgiveness of sins (especially the small ones - which He is quick to forgive). But grave sins requires a perfect contrition & repentance & God CAN say no and we can never know since this level of contrition takes special grace.
The AUTHORITY to forgive sins in JESUS’ NAME does not come from education. It comes DIRECTLY through the giving of the very same apostolic authority that was given to the apostles when Jesus breathed on them. This authority is DIVINELY GIVEN and GOD BREATHED.
*John 20:21-23
(Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent Me, so I send you.” 22 And when he had said this, **He breathed on them **and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. 23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” *
This authority to forgive sins in His name was given ONLY to the apostles. BUT this was the formal giving of the authority of the apostolic priesthood - the formidable authority called “loosing and binding”. This authority is profound and it also gives a BISHOP the authority to ordain other successors priests (to bind them in service to the Lord & convey this same authority so others too many consecrate themselves to The Lord). This authority is a SPECIAL SPIRITUAL authority that marks the soul in a special way and gives a spiritual rank so to speak that is above the laity rank one receives in baptism - which itself is special enough too but does not have the full priestly authority. In other words a baptised person can NOT ordain a person unless he himself has been ordained by a spiritual descendent of an apostle. This is why Catholics are so proud of our 2,000 year old APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION - the continuous unbroken conveyance of apostolic authority from Peter to our current pope and bishops.
Apostolic authority has 3 levels of authority: 1) Bishop, 2) Priest 3) Deacon. Only a bishop may ordain others. A priest or a bishop may both effect the sacraments and forgive sins. A deacon is essentially an ordained helper - anointed to assist the priest and may read scripture and speak of it with authority.
How is this authority given? Simple - by physical “laying on of hands” and special apostolic blessing - just like it is stated in the bible. Reference how Mathias is replaced and Timothy and others are given this same priestly authority.
EXAMPLES OF HOW APOSTOLIC AUTHORITY IS PASSED ON
Acts 6:6 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown.
Acts 9:17-19 - even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles.
Acts 13:3 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority must come from a Catholic bishop.
1 Tim. 4:14 - again, apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination).
1 Tim. 5:22 - Paul urges Timothy to be careful in laying on the hands (ordaining others). The gift of authority is a reality and cannot be used indiscriminately.
2 Tim. 1:6 - Paul again reminds Timothy the unique gift of God that he received through the laying on of hands.
APOSTOLIC PRIESTLY AUTHORITY IS AN EXTENSION OF HOW GOD GAVE HIS AUTHORITY IN ANCIENT TIMES
Exodus 18:25-26 - Moses appoints various heads over the people of God. We see a hierarchy, a transfer of authority and succession.
Exodus 40:15 - the physical anointing shows that God intended a perpetual priesthood with an identifiable unbroken succession.
Numbers 3:3 - the sons of Aaron were formally “anointed” priests in “ordination” to minister in the priests’ “office.”
Numbers 16:40 - shows God’s intention of unbroken succession within His kingdom on earth. Unless a priest was ordained by Aaron and his descendants, he had no authority.
Numbers 27:18-20 - shows God’s intention that, through the “laying on of hands,” one is commissioned and has authority.
Deut. 34:9 - Moses laid hands upon Joshua, and because of this, Joshua was obeyed as successor, full of the spirit of wisdom.
Sirach 45:15 - Moses ordains Aaron and anoints him with oil. There is a transfer of authority through formal ordination.
So, you see that the apostolic authority to forgive sins is VERY REAL. The seminary school is just training that all Catholic priests must receive (and that is extremely heavy training taking 7 or more years I believe) to be able to properly teach apostolically the same lessons passed down to us from our Catholic Apostolic Teaching and to understand the history and the teachings of The Church. But the schooling is just to expand and enlighten the mind - it DOES NOT grant ANY authority itself. Many seminarians in fact drop out and never go on to get ordained since the educational requirements are so heavy and the commitment is a foreshadowing of what every priest must do to commit to the flock a bishop appoints him to pastor.
But ONLY after a seminary student received his educational credentials AND is reviewed by an apostolic bishop and ORDAINED in a formal ceremony does a seminarian actualy received his priestly authority as a priest. In the ordination ceremony the bishop physically lays his hands on the aspirant during a special rite of ordination and passes to him the priestly authority. At this point in time the person is a newly ordained apostolic priest and has full authority to forgive sins in Jesus’ name and to teach with authority, conduct masses and effect the sacraments. It is a very special anointing. Later if the priest proves himself worthy and is called by God to be a bishop he will be hand picked and sponsored by the bishop as a candidate for the office of bishop and his name forwarded to the pope for consideration and approval. If approved the priest is elevated in rank to full apostolic bishop through another seperate ordination ceremony where usually 3 bishops physically “lay on of hands” to ordain the priest as a bishop and again give the highest spiritual authority. The new bishop now has the authority to confirm others in the faith and to ordain and to oversee a full dioceses of Catholics.
I hope this clarifies things for you.
James
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cazayoux
Guest
EXACTLY … they can forgive sins because they have had hands laid upon them by the bishop… as has been done since before the new testament was even written.
michel
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