SPLIT: Is Confession not necessary?

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So if they go down the tube, you go with them,right! Put your trust in Christ. Ralph
I believe we’re talking about an authentic interpreter for the authentic Word of God.
God redeems. So who goes down the tube is redeemable.

The Catholic Church has not gone down the tube. It has been protected for some 2000 years. Other churches started by other men we have been warned about in the bible.

These guys have no reason to be trusted for an authentic interpretation of scripture.
I would not entrust the guidance of my soul to such. And if you’re playing the Lone Ranger, where’s the wisdom and discernment in that?

This should not bother any protestants or non-denominationals, however. It’s of no concern. Everyone is perfectly free to do what they will.

My trust is in Jesus Christ, true God and true man. The second person of the Blessed Trinity. Not Jimmy Swaggart or Joel Olsteen or whoever else is the flavor of the day.
 
i absolve your sins
This is not funny Jerry - you are crossing the line into blasphemy to make fun of the divine authority of the apostolic priesthood to forgive sins by making it look like you have an equivalent authority. I noticed too that you spoke in your own name - which is also mocking God. God is not mocked Jerry - I really fear for you and suggest you make a quick short prayer to God asking for forgivness and explaining that you meant no harm to him and sincerely be sorry for offending Him. If it offends a Catholic then you can be sure that it also offends God. It is grave matter but you didn’t know that. Now you do and no longer have that excuse.

The essential words pronounced by an apostolic priest when he absolves a penitent in the sacrament of penance, namely, “I absolve you from your sins, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.”

James
 
I have a question… if Jesus says “What sins you forgive are forgiven, and what sins you retain are retained”, how is that not arbitrary? Shouldn’t God alone decide what sins are forgiven and retained?
This is a really good question. Not easily answered considering the vastness of scope.
God is always the final judge, but what a priest has is a faculty. He celebrates the sacrament with a repentant sinner. But if he discerns within that faculty that there is something lacking in the penitent, then he can withhold absolution till such time that that gets worked out. But on a larger scale the Church itself can hold people responsible for things like abortion. I.e., Catholic politicians who support abortion rights, etc. This stuff doesn’t get glossed over.

Here’s another way of looking at it. Is a lamp Hindu? Is an air conditioner Catholic?

Best Wishes
 
Gee thanks allot! :mad:

I was better of basking in my ignorance, at least, maybe I had a chance at heaven. Now that you’ve told me the truth and I reject it, Gods going to send me to hell!

It would be better for the ignorant souls, if you stopped spreading this so called truth around.

:rotfl:
It is an interesting phenomenon of religious history that the heresy of Luther, taking its rise in a proud rebellion against the teaching authority of the Catholic Church, issued in a pessimistic theology which, exaggerating the effects of original sin, presented human nature as intrinsically corrupt. The human will, bereft of freedom, was radically incapable of pursuing the good, the human reason was powerless to know the truth. As man’s broken will must submit passively to the grace of God, so must his mind now, darkened by sin, allow itself to be led by an occult and irresistible force, a blind and unreasoning faith. The agnosticism of Kant and his disciples, which, denying the validity of metaphysical argument, takes refuge, in order to justify religious belief, either in the dictates of the practical reason or in an unreasoning religious sense, is essentially a Protestant philosophy; and of this tendency to rely upon a blind instinct in religious matters the modern forms of exaggerated - and therefore false - mysticism, the systems of religious pragmatism and sentimentalism, so common outside the Church, are the more or less direct descendants.

From all such attempts to disparage the powers of human reason the Catholic Church has ever remained aloof. The Church, in thus vindicating the power of human reason to know God, is but reaffirming what St. Paul had said in his epistle to the Romans: “The invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made.”

But while the Church is solicitous to vindicate the just rights of the human reason, while she has no sympathy with those who unduly disparage it, she strenuously resists the claim of Rationalism that is "the sole judge of the true and false . . . that it is a law to itself and sufficient by its natural powers to procure the good of men and peoples. The Church asserts the essential soundness of the human mind and its radical capacity for learning all natural truth; but she is mindful that man is in a fallen state, that disordered passion and the manifold distractions of material things hamper and retard him in his pursuit of religious knowledge.

Human reason is a gift from God which separates us from animals not a whore as you and Luther proclaim. Try using it sometimes. To quote our late, great Pontiff, Pope John Paul II, “Do not be afraid !”
 
It is an interesting phenomenon of religious history that the heresy of Luther, taking its rise in a proud rebellion against the teaching authority of the Catholic Church, issued in a pessimistic theology which, exaggerating the effects of original sin, presented human nature as intrinsically corrupt. The human will, bereft of freedom, was radically incapable of pursuing the good, the human reason was powerless to know the truth. As man’s broken will must submit passively to the grace of God, so must his mind now, darkened by sin, allow itself to be led by an occult and irresistible force, a blind and unreasoning faith. The agnosticism of Kant and his disciples, which, denying the validity of metaphysical argument, takes refuge, in order to justify religious belief, either in the dictates of the practical reason or in an unreasoning religious sense, is essentially a Protestant philosophy; and of this tendency to rely upon a blind instinct in religious matters the modern forms of exaggerated - and therefore false - mysticism, the systems of religious pragmatism and sentimentalism, so common outside the Church, are the more or less direct descendants.

From all such attempts to disparage the powers of human reason the Catholic Church has ever remained aloof. The Church, in thus vindicating the power of human reason to know God, is but reaffirming what St. Paul had said in his epistle to the Romans: “The invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made.”

But while the Church is solicitous to vindicate the just rights of the human reason, while she has no sympathy with those who unduly disparage it, she strenuously resists the claim of Rationalism that is "the sole judge of the true and false . . . that it is a law to itself and sufficient by its natural powers to procure the good of men and peoples. The Church asserts the essential soundness of the human mind and its radical capacity for learning all natural truth; but she is mindful that man is in a fallen state, that disordered passion and the manifold distractions of material things hamper and retard him in his pursuit of religious knowledge.

Human reason is a gift from God which separates us from animals not a whore as you and Luther proclaim. Try using it sometimes.
Thanks for that insight Tomster. What is amazing to me is how a man like Luther who thought man was so thoroughly corrupted sin that he could not do anything good, not even form a good thought apparently, managed to get a temporary kitchen pass to compose not 1 but 95 theses against The Church; then goes on to tell the popes to kiss his arse (literally) and to add all new words to scripture (“by works ALONE”) not in the original scriptural manuscripts then also imagines he has discovered a whole new teaching called sola striptura (that no apostles or subsequent church father ever taught) then redefines scripture! It’s maddening that anyone can be so foolish to not see the blatant contradiction to his reason. How is it that a ranting lunatic of a man who himself claims all men are pathetic sinners and utterly depraved of grace can turn right around and authoritatively try to teach anyone a new truth??? If we trusted Luther at his own words we should not be trusting a word he says except to agree that he is a sinner. How is it that Protestants could follow a man who takes pride in gluttonously and conspicuously wallowing in the mire of his own sins as his public profession of his faith in Jesus?

Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong (sin boldly), but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides.
– Luther


Anyone who would preach even rhetorically of sin as an expression of faith is demonicly possessed…

James
 
Here are the actual penitential rite’s words-of-absolution for individual confession given by the priest after hearing the confessors sins, offering counseling and guidance and suggesting a penance. The priest then extends his hand over the penitent’s head (if in person face to face) or if behind a screen extends his hand toward the confessor and says:

*God, the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of his Son has reconciled the world to himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through *the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you * (in persona Christi) from your sins in the name of **the Father, and of the Son, + and of the Holy Spirit. *

This is all backed by scripture:

*John 20:22-23
And when he had said this, **he breathed on them **and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. 23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

Matthew 9:2-8
And there people brought to him a paralytic lying on a stretcher. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Courage, child, your sins are forgiven.” 3 At that, some of the scribes 2 said to themselves, “This man is blaspheming.” 4 Jesus knew what they were thinking, and said, “Why do you harbor evil thoughts? 5 Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise and walk’? 6 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins” --he then said to the paralytic, “Rise, pick up your stretcher, and go home.” 7 He rose and went home. 8 When the crowds saw this they were struck with awe and glorified God who had given such authority to human beings.

2 Corinthians 5:17-20
So whoever is in Christ is a new creation: the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
*

James
 
**A very frequently asked question is:
“What sins you forgive are forgiven, and WHAT SINS YOU RETAIN ARE RETAINED”, how is that not arbitrary?

No it’s not. Here’s one out of many samples why that is so:

A friend of mine, person A, did very wrong to person B. The aggrieved B did not know, that A had done this.
A went to confession.
The priest insisted, that A must tell B it was him and ask for forgiveness and also A must redress fort he damage.

A denied, for it was simply too embarrassing to him. understandable, but the priest did (of course) not forgive this sin, but retained it.
So A showed up and told me of the „incredible thing“ – that priest did by not forgiving. He too said – it’s God’s thing not this priests.

Well, I told him, this priest in right. We all know, sins can’t be forgiven without penance and active repentance.
In fact that’s very reasonable and clear.

Yes, in the end it’s Gods decision. Ask yourself, if sins can be forgiven, without the basic elements for forgiveness.
**
 
What if someone is severely mentally challenged and cannot understand what is being said?

Hmmm, so your saying that salvation is based upon an intellectual decision. Pity the mentally challenged, the comatose, the severely cognitively impaired, for God does not reach out to them, as they cannot accept or reject the message, as they do not possess any mental capacity to understand it.
Some things are reserved for God’s glory.

In the words of Joni Mitchell:
Code:
      "Ah, but look who comes to counsel my deep distress
      all these pompous physicians
      with carelessness"
 
Confession to a priest is not necessary. Just because someone goes through seminary school does not give them the right to forgive sins. Ask God directly to forgive your sins. There is absolutely no biblical or tradition that says it is necessary to confess your sins to a priest. This is a heretical teaching.
Nice strawman. :confused:

Would you like know what the Church really teaches on these topics?
 
That’s cute Ralph, but did you get past that passage and read the next? I doubt it. Here’s 13 and 14:

“13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised holy Spirit”

and here’s the part you ignored:

“14 which is the first installment of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s possession, to the praise of his glory.”

So when you made the first installment on your house note, you were finished?
I guess that would be “Sola Mortgatura Paymentium”.
Where did you get the words “which is the first installment”. My Roman catholic bible says “who is the pledge of our inheritance, for a redemption of possesion , for the prais of His glory” Ralph
 
EXACTLY … they can forgive sins because they have had hands laid upon them by the bishop… as has been done since before the new testament was even written.

michel
Only God can forgive sins. How can a sinner take away another sinner’s sin. He does not have the power to do so. Ralph
 
Only God can forgive sins. How can a sinner take away another sinner’s sin. He does not have the power to do so. Ralph
Jesus (God) gave power to men. Jesus gave the apostles the power to heal, drive out demons, and to forgive sins.

We’re not making this up.

We see Jesus using sinners to accomplish His goals.

michel
 
**
So you too are member of limited believe? In other words The Christian Ltd. & Co.

Jesus Himself gave after His resurrection His apostles and their successors the mandate to forgive sins in John 20,23:
Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."
And you dare to call this heretical teaching.

No question you call papacy heretical too, even though this too was founded by Jesus Christ. (The Pope too goes to confession by the way).

OK – we know, to those Christians Ltd. All the bible is heretical teaching - right only when reformed their way – but they of course are absolutely right.
This would be terribly funny, if it wouldn’t be so sad!

**
My friend all the apostles and the disciples are dead,they cannot be reached now. Go to the one that has the power and can do all things, the Lord Jesus Christ. The apostles and disciples were given power when they were with Christ while He was here on earth. That’s system is finished now. We have the Power of the Holy Spirit in us when we turn to Christ and receive Him as our Lord and Savior Ralph
 
Where did you get the words “which is the first installment”. My Roman catholic bible says “who is the pledge of our inheritance, for a redemption of possesion , for the prais of His glory” Ralph
Which Catholic bible?
DR?
RSV-CE?
NAB?
.
.
michel
 
Only God can forgive sins. How can a sinner take away another sinner’s sin. He does not have the power to do so. Ralph
70 x 7. But you’re getting into semantics. Or splitting hairs. Jesus asks us to forgive wrongs

committed against us. If we don’t stand to accuse, neither will He.

Best Wishes
 
Jesus (God) gave power to men. Jesus gave the apostles the power to heal, drive out demons, and to forgive sins.

We’re not making this up.

We see Jesus using sinners to accomplish His goals.

michel
That power was given when Christ was here on earth, that is finished now and it was never passed on to anyone. When we get saved, we receive the Holy Spirit who comes to dwell within us and guides us in all things. Ralph
 
=ralphy;5023247]And the strings are? Ralph
Speaking of salvation as a process, unlike Redeemption which is now a DONE DEAL.

Here are “the strings” attached to the “free gift” of Salvation.

**James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe–and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead***

Love and prayers my friend,
 
70 x 7. But you’re getting into semantics. Or splitting hairs. Jesus asks us to forgive wrongs

committed against us. If we don’t stand to accuse, neither will He.

Best Wishes
You are correct,we are to forgive things that are done against us and also ask for forgiveness of the person we may have offended. Ralph
 
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