SPLIT: Is Confession not necessary?

[ralphy]

Speaking of salvation as a process, unlike Redeemption which is now a DONE DEAL.

Here are “the strings” attached to the “free gift” of Salvation.

**James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe–and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead***

Love and prayers my friend,

If salvation is a gift (and it is), then there are no strings attached. Why don’t you stop adding things to to Eph:2:8,9 and just accept it as it is, after all, it is Gods word. Ralph

 

[ralphy]

Which Catholic bible?
DR?
RSV-CE?
NAB?
.
.
michel

You mean Roman catholics have more than one bible, how can that be! I was not aware of until now, honestly. I don’t know what version it is. I bought it in 1958 when I was stationed in France with the military. It has Cardinal Stritch’s name in the front. Ralph

 

[cazayoux]

You are correct,we are to forgive things that are done against us and also ask for forgiveness of the person we may have offended. Ralph

So why would Jesus only give men the power to forgive sins in one generation?

michel

 

[CentralFLJames]

That power was given when Christ was here on earth, that is finished now and it was never passed on to anyone. When we get saved, we receive the Holy Spirit who comes to dwell within us and guides us in all things. Ralph

You are creating scripture again Ralph. There is no “expiration date” or “best used by date” on God’s word.

Did God’s commandment to teach by forgiving of sins end after the last apostle died?

Did Moses bring down the 10 commandments for only the first generation Jews?

Did the Levitical priesthood end when Levi or Aaron died?



James

 

[allhers]

That power was given when Christ was here on earth, that is finished now and it was never passed on to anyone. When we get saved, we receive the Holy Spirit who comes to dwell within us and guides us in all things. Ralph

Wrong again ralphy…

Jn 20:19-23

On the evening of that first day of the week,
when the doors were locked, where the disciples were,
for fear of the Jews,
Jesus came and stood in their midst
and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side.
The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord.
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you.
As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them,
“Receive the Holy Spirit.
Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them,
and whose sins you retain are retained.”

Now Jesus knew when He would be coming back at some point in time and He knew that others would be replaced by these Apostles by the laying on of hands, so why wouldn’t that exist even until now?

 

[cazayoux]

You mean Roman catholics have more than one bible, how can that be! I was not aware of until now, honestly. I don’t know what version it is. I bought it in 1958 when I was stationed in France with the military. It has Cardinal Stritch’s name in the front. Ralph

Yep …

Eph 1:11-14

(RSV)
13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
14 which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

(Douay-Rheims)
13 In whom you also, after you had heard the word of truth, (the gospel of your salvation in whom also believing, you were signed with the holy Spirit of promise,
14 Who is the pledge of our inheritance, unto the redemption of acquisition, unto the praise of his glory.

(New American Bible)
13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised holy Spirit,
14 which is the first installment of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s possession, to the praise of his glory.

(New Jerusalem Bible)
13 Now you too, in him, have heard the message of the truth and the gospel of your salvation, and having put your trust in it you have been stamped with the seal of the Holy Spirit of the Promise,
14 who is the pledge of our inheritance, for the freedom of the people whom God has taken for his own, for the praise of his glory.

See this link for Catholics: Choosing a Bible Translation from James Akin.

michel

 

[PJM]

=ralphy;5026525]You mean Roman catholics have more than one bible, how can that be! I was not aware of until now, honestly. I don’t know what version it is. I bought it in 1958 when I was stationed in France with the military. It has Cardinal Stritch’s name in the front. Ralph

:nope:Nope, One Faith, One Church, One Bible (but different versions) That ALL teach the same Doctrines and Dogma’s

The difference evolves around terminology not Theology:tiphat:

If in doubt GOOGLE : Douay Rheims Bible which is the one St. Jermone treanslated from Hebrew, Greek and Aeromaic into LATIN around the year 350A.D.

Love and prayers,

 

[Iamnotafraid]

Where in the scriptures is it written that people have to go see an ordained priest in order to have their mortal sins forgiven.

Where in the scriptures is it written that people can have their venial sins forgiven directly by God, through prayer and through the Eucharist.

Where in the scriptures does it say that in order to be forgiven, that proper matter and form must be obeyed while undergoing the sacrament?

Or did a bunch of powerful white men create the specific rules surrounding confession?

 

[allhers]

These are all approved too by the Catholic Church.

RSV (Revised Standard Version)
RSV-CE(Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition, which I believe is the Ignatius Bible, correct?)
New Jerusalem Bible
Douay-Rheims
Navarre
N.A.B.(New American Bible)

 

[davidv]

Where in the scriptures is it written that people have to go see an ordained priest in order to have their mortal sins forgiven.

Where in the scriptures is it written that people can have their venial sins forgiven directly by God, through prayer and through the Eucharist.

Where in the scriptures does it say that in order to be forgiven, that proper matter and form must be obeyed while undergoing the sacrament?

Or did a bunch of powerful white men create the specific rules surrounding confession?

Where in scripture is it written the these things must be written in scripture to be true?

Any power these “powerful white men” have, comes from God, through Jesus.

 

[allhers]

Where in the scriptures is it written that people have to go see an ordained priest in order to have their mortal sins forgiven.

Where in the scriptures is it written that people can have their venial sins forgiven directly by God, through prayer and through the Eucharist.

Where in the scriptures does it say that in order to be forgiven, that proper matter and form must be obeyed while undergoing the sacrament?

Or did a bunch of powerful white men create the specific rules surrounding confession?

Who told you it was a bunch of powerful white men??

1Timothy3:15

 

[Iamnotafraid]

Where in scripture is it written the these things must be written in scripture to be true?

Any power these “powerful white men” have, comes from God, through Jesus.

I take it to mean, that you can make up all the rules you want. Even the rules about what sins God can forgive personally and what sins can be forgiven only through the cooperation of a properly ordained priest.

You believe that everyone comes from God, even women. Yet, only men get to make these fascinating decisions. How utterly sexist, yet fascinating.

 

[sauce]

Ralph,

What is your religious affiliation? Seems like you fellowship with Catholics a lot.

Are you a Calvinist? An Evangelical? An Anabaptist? A Seventh Day Adventist?
A J. Witness? A Baptist? A Methodist? Or an obscure offspring of something else?

Knowing how to read the bible in its historical context is most helpful to everyone. We all can’t afford to study form criticism. But Catholics are aware that legitimate scholarship
is to be sought out. And yet we meditate on scripture alone in order to be purified and built up by God’s word. That’s how we can experience Rhema. I haven’t read any Catholic on this thread speak arrogantly about what God’s word says about salvation or the Topic of this Thread which is about Confession being necessary or not.

But, come on Ralphy, you seem to exude a fragrance of distrust towards us. And you treat us as though we are not saved in Christ Jesus. Knowing the state of someone’s soul is Jesus Christ’s business not someone else’s. Otherwise, there is no progress toward real relationship and dialogue, which is most desirable between Christians. Even on the Internet.

Jesus prayed that we might one day be “one.”
So we go to confession. That’s what practicing Catholics do. It shouldn’t upset non-Catholics. Give it a rest. You sound like a nice guy.

 

[allhers]

I take it to mean, that you can make up all the rules you want. Even the rules about what sins God can forgive personally and what sins can be forgiven only through the cooperation of a properly ordained priest.

You believe that everyone comes from God, even women. Yet, only men get to make these fascinating decisions. How utterly sexist, yet fascinating.

Oh but you are forgetting about our Dear Blessed Mother Mary, she is one of God’s greatest gifts to us.
She followed Jesus her entire life, God choose her, the Holy Spirit overshadowed her and Jesus sprang to life in her. Those men who compiled all the Books of the Bible orginally, they were taught of the men who walked with the Lord and knew His Blessed Mother.

 

[cazayoux]

You believe that everyone comes from God, even women. Yet, only men get to make these fascinating decisions. How utterly sexist, yet fascinating.

You calling Jesus a sexist?

michel

 

[PJM]

=Iamnotafraid;5026608]Where in the scriptures is it written that people have to go see an ordained priest in order to have their mortal sins forgiven.

Mt. 16:17 "And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, * and on this rock * I will build my church, and the powers of death * shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."**

John 20: "21Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Where in the scriptures is it written that people can have their venial sins forgiven directly by God, through prayer and through the Eucharist.

Mt. 26: "26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you; 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

We know this is only “lesser, what we call Veniel sins”, NOT MORTAL sins because working our of ones salvation is a process (see James 2:14-26), and also John 20:23 quoted above.

Where in the scriptures does it say that in order to be forgiven, that proper matter and form must be obeyed while undergoing the sacrament?{QUOTE]

Keep in mind dear friend that ONLY CHRIST CAN, and Christ Himself Personaly does forgives ones sins Confessed in Confession.

Both in the Sacrament of Confession and in the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist / Holy Communion, it is God Himself a. Forgivng your sins b. Trabsforming what only appears to be ordianary bread and wine into the very Real Body (now Glorified) Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Himself. (Read Jn.6: 40-60)

The priest, in a miracle within a Miracle is actually transformed (for an instant) into the very “Person of Jesus Christ!” Christ Forgives and Christ Transforms!

17 And **Jesus **answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And **I tell you, you are Peter, * and on this rock ** I will build my church, and the powers of death * shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Or did a bunch of powerful white men create the specific rules surrounding confession?

Well actually kinda, we call them the Pope and Bishops and the authority and THE MANDATE came from Jesus Himself. (As you can see for yourself.)

“Binding and Loosing” were Rabbitical BINDING AT COURT OF LAW terms of the time for UNLIMITED AUTHORITY to RULE and automously and Govern.

There you have it friend:

Words of Jesus

In the Bible

So now, what are you going to do with your new found TRUTH?

Love and prayers,

 

[cazayoux]

Where in the scriptures is it written that people have to go see an ordained priest in order to have their mortal sins forgiven.

Where in the scriptures is it written that people can have their venial sins forgiven directly by God, through prayer and through the Eucharist.

Where in the scriptures does it say that in order to be forgiven, that proper matter and form must be obeyed while undergoing the sacrament?

Or did a bunch of powerful white men create the specific rules surrounding confession?

All good questions.
You seem to know a lot about scripture … so I need you to help me understand.
Why DID Jesus give men the power to forgive sins? … and the authority to decide whether or not to use that power?

What is ‘your take’ on this scripture?

John 20:21-23
[21] Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”
[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
[23] If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

michel

 

[allhers]

Read St. Luke, who do you think that they got their information from in the Infancy Narrative? (St. Joseph was believed to be dead by then.) I think they probably talked with her, she was afterall the perfect model to follow as a human, Jesus of course was the perfect model she followed. She tells us all…"Listen to HIM, and these so called, by you, “powerful white men”, they are all, by the power of the laying on of hands, decendants of those first men. (So again, who told you that they were all powerful white men?)

 

[CentralFLJames]

You mean Roman catholics have more than one bible, how can that be! I was not aware of until now, honestly. I don’t know what version it is. I bought it in 1958 when I was stationed in France with the military. It has Cardinal Stritch’s name in the front. Ralph

Cardinal Strich (Archbishop of Chicago 1940–1958) was America’s first Catholic Bishop to head a dicastery of the Roman Curia. He was a very respected man and raised more than a few eyebrows in his day by forbidding American Catholics in his dioceses from being too involved with ecumenical programs since it sent the wrong message.

Samuel Alphonsius Cardinal Stritch (August 17, 1887—May 27, 1958)
Time Magazine article: Catholics Barred (Monday:

This article butchered his original letter but it gives insights into how alive and well anti-Catholicism was in this era.

Info from Time Magazine:
time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,857494,00.html

“There are men outside the church,” wrote the cardinal, "professing the Christian name, who deplore the divisions which exist among them. They talk about setting up and establishing a Christian unity, or, as they sometimes say, a unity of Christian action . . . They gather in international organizations; they hold congresses, conventions and assemblies . . .

"The Catholic Church does not . . .

enter into any organization in which the delegates of many sects sit down in council or conference as equals to discuss the nature of the Church of Christ or the nature of her unity … or to formulate a program of united Christian action. She does not allow her children to engage in any activity . . . based on the false assumption that Roman Catholics, too, are still searching for the truth of Christ." “Negative & Defensive.”

It is likely that a man of his high ranking within The Catholic Church that he would have signed off as one of many approving ecclesial authorities on a Catholic Bible published in his day. Various versions and editions of the Douay-Rheims Bible (a classic Catholic Bible) were printed in the United States up until 1947. You might have a valuable bible copy there Ralphy - you should open it and read the publishers information and tell us what version it is.

James

 

[cazayoux]

Or did a bunch of powerful white men create the specific rules surrounding confession?

white men?
Don’t you realize that the church started in Jerusalem.
It was the councils in Africa that gave us the new testament canon… in the 4th century.

myopic?
In the words of Quatto … “open your miiiiind”

michel