SPLIT: Leviticus 15

[schaick]

As far ar I know Christians don’t have developed Dogmas and doctrines like the Catholic Church.

Now a minister might haved preached against barrier birth controls because he didn’t understand how they worked, was worried about promiscuity, or didn’t realize the need for them in the case where a married couple might want to be intimate but could not have children for health reasons - a couple where one has Huntingtons Chorea

You would deny a loving married couple intimate relations? Already they carry the cross of living-dying with Huntingtons. You want them to also be celibate?

 

[elvisman]

As far ar I know Christians don’t have developed Dogmas and doctrines like the Catholic Church.

Now a minister might haved preached against barrier birth controls because he didn’t understand how they worked, was worried about promiscuity, or didn’t realize the need for them in the case where a married couple might want to be intimate but could not have children for health reasons - a couple where one has Huntingtons Chorea

LOL! You would deny a loving married couple intimate relations? Already they carry the cross of living-dying with Huntingtons. You want them to also be celibate?

First of all - whereas sex is about marriage - marriage isn’t only about sex.

Secondly - God built in safeguards against pregnancy during a woman’s cycle. There are times during her cyccle where it is “safe” to have relations without becoming pregnant. If you don’t know this already - perhaps you should take a health class.

My brother and his wife have had about 10 miscarriages. The doctors have told her that her uterus is incapable of carrying a child to term (although I’m not familiar with the name of the disorder). They have a perfectly “normal” love life because they adhere to a schedule where it is “safe” for her.

My whole point about contraception was to show you that the Catholic Church does not waver when it comes to the truth because she is guided by the Holy Spirit. By contrast - ALL of the Protestant denominations that HAVE wavered on this subject cannot possibly be led by the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit doe NOT waver on the truth.

Oh - by the way - “Christian” vs. Catholic" is an oxymoron.
Catholics were the very FIRST Christians . . .

 

[elvisman]

If that were true, then everyone would be in heaven; so the context must not be correct since most people are not going to be in heaven. Proverbs, the Psalmist and Jesus Himself state as much.

Just because God wills something doesn’t meant that his will is always done. This is Theology 101.

**Do YOU do God’s will every day - ALL day long? No, and neither do I.
God’s will is never forced upon anybody. He is not a cosmic rapist who forces his love and his will upon us, dragging us into heaven. Neither does he send us kicking and screaming into hell. WE make our choices because we have a FREE will.

When Jesus taught the people to pray - the second sentence includes this fact:
"… thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

 

[elvisman]

Thanks for your opinion and remember, most likely, it’s just that, your opinion.

As I said, you haven’t proven from the Bible that God is against all forms of ‘not having a baby’ as an outcome of intimate times with ones spouse.

Ummm . . . I beg to differ.

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Gen 38:9-19** and Deut. 23:2 are glaringly apparent condemnations of birth control/contraception because they do NOT utilize the natural means of a woman’s cycle that God provided for.**

 

[elvisman]

I don’t!!

A condom is a barrier type birth control, like the diaphragm. When in use no life is created, so no life is destroyed.

Barrier ontraceptives are the perfect answer for the loving married couple to use especially if for health reasons they should not have children.

Wrong, Schaick.
As I pointed out to Doki - Gen 38:9-19 and Deut. 23:2 clearly condemn this sort of birth control/contraception because they do NOT utilize the natural means of a woman’s cycle that God provided for.

In Gen 38: 38:9-19, Onan was killed by God for spilling his seed. Deut 23:3 states that anybody who has had their genitalia altered to prevent conception cannot be admitted into the community of the LORD.

In BOTH cases, “no life is created” as you put it, but God condemns it anyway.

 

[schaick]

Wrong, Schaick.
As I pointed out to Doki - Gen 38:9-19 and Deut. 23:2 clearly condemn this sort of birth control/contraception because they do NOT utilize the natural means of a woman’s cycle that God provided for.

In Gen 38: 38:9-19, Onan was killed by God for spilling his seed. Deut 23:3 states that anybody who has had their genitalia altered to prevent conception cannot be admitted into the community of the LORD.

In BOTH cases, “no life is created” as you put it, but God condemns it anyway.

Wrong, elvisman.

Who is condoning barrier controls for a forbidden marriage?

Deuteronomy 23
2 No one born of a forbidden marriage [a] nor any of his descendants may enter the assembly of the LORD, even down to the tenth generation.

You are missing the whole point;

It is Onan’s motivation for spilling his seed on the ground- *** to keep from producing offspring for his brother***- that is evil.

 

[elvisman]

Wrong, elvisman.

Who is condoning barrier controls for a forbidden marriage?

Deuteronomy 23
2 No one born of a forbidden marriage [a] nor any of his descendants may enter the assembly of the LORD, even down to the tenth generation.

You are missing the whole point;

It is Onan’s motivation for spilling his seed on the ground- to keep from producing offspring for his brother- that is evil.

Huh??
**His motivation? **

So - if I murder or rape somebody, it is only my motivation that is evil and not the act itself?? You’re saying that I can rob a bank and that it is okay as long as my motivation is okay? Is that what you’re saying?
That is comeplete and total hogwash.

According to Deut. 25:9 - if a man refused to perform his duties with his dead brother’s wife - it was not a capital offense and only one of public humiliation. His motivation - as you put it - was not the reason god struck him down.

Onan’s sin was coitus interruptus - the spilling of his seed. Contraception.
Contraceptive sex is evil because it takes away from the life-giving nature of it and demands that God follow our will instead of the other way around.

 

[schaick]

Huh??
His motivation?

So - if I murder or rape somebody, it is only my motivation that is evil and not the act itself?? You’re saying that I can rob a bank and that it is okay as long as my motivation is okay? Is that what you’re saying?
That is comeplete and total hogwash.

According to Deut. 25:9 - if a man refused to perform his duties with his dead brother’s wife - it was not a capital offense and only one of public humiliation. His motivation - as you put it - was not the reason god struck him down.

Onan’s sin was coitus interruptus - the spilling of his seed. Contraception.
Contraceptive sex is evil because it takes away from the life-giving nature of it and demands that God follow our will instead of the other way around.

I am glad you aren’t our judge!!

The only reason you would murder, rob a bank or rape are for evil motives.

There is such a thing as accidently killing a person and there are cases where men accidently spill their seed in premature ejaculation - the motive of these cases is not evil.

The use of a barrier birth control by a married couple where the woman can no longer bear children or for health reasons either should not produce children yet want to be of one flesh in a loving manner is not evil.

 

[elvisman]

I am glad you aren’t our judge!!

The only reason you would murder, rob a bank or rape are for evil motives.

There is such a thing as accidently killing a person and there are cases where men accidently spill their seed in premature ejaculation - the motive of these cases is not evil.

The use of a barrier birth control by a married couple where the woman can no longer bear children or for health reasons either should not produce children yet want to be of one flesh in a loving manner is not evil.

You’re missing the entire point. We’re not talking about accidents here. Onan chose to violate the divine will of God by contracepting – it was NO accident.
As I pointed out before - according to Deut. 25:9 - if a man refused to perform his duties with his dead brother’s wife - it was not a capital offense and only one of public humiliation. God would NOT have killed him for that. He killed him for spilling his seed – PURPOSELY**.**

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You say that it is only motive and I disagree with you – so does God. I can have the urge or the idea to murder somebody but unless I go through with it – I have NOT done it.

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You can have fleeting thoughts of sin but that does not make the sin – it is only temptation. Jesus said that if a man looked at a woman with lust in his eye – he has already committed adultery with her. BUT – he was speaking of prolonged thoughts – not a fleeting fancy. Even HE was tempted by Satan

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The entire reason for marriage is to add more people to the family of God. God created marriage for TWO reasons:
- So that we wouldn’t be alone (unity)**
- So that he could bestow his gifts of life to us (procreation).

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Whenever you take EITHER reason out of the equation for selfish reasons – you have violated His divine will.

 

[Janet1983]

You’re missing the entire point. We’re not talking about accidents here. Onan chose to violate the divine will of God by contracepting – it was NO accident.

That is the point that is definitely open for debate and that is the main problem why there is such a controversy around the topic of ABC…

In Genesis 38 we see the following as context:

And it came about at that time, that Judah departed from his brothers and visited a certain Adullamite, whose name was Hirah. Judah saw there a daughter of a certain Canaanite whose name was Shua; and he took her and went in to her. So she conceived and bore a son and he named him Er. Then she conceived again and bore a son and named him Onan. She bore still another son and named him Shelah; and it was at Chezib that she bore him. Now Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, and her name was Tamar. But Er, Judah’s firstborn, was evil in the sight of the LORD, so the LORD took his life. Then Judah said to Onan, “Go in to your brother’s wife, and perform your duty as a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.”

Onan was told to perform what is called a levirate marriage. Er’s wife was without children and that meant that a kinsman redeemer had to help out here. The purpose for this was to simply not let the name of the father die and to take care of the widow. Whoever that redeemer was, he would have to impregnate the widow and then raise the child who would then be regarded as the deceased man’s child.
There are two ways to handle such a situation for the next of kin:

1. Do as he was told according to the Law.
2. Decline and ask the next in line to do the job (as seen in the book of Ruth)

Onan however did neither:
Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife, he wasted his seed on the ground in order not to give offspring to his brother.
Onan did not practice birth control. He disobeyed the Law of the Lord and practiced deliberate and rebellious rejection of the same. He did, as a result, reap what he sowed:
What he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD; so He took his life also.

Onan was killed for disobedience and rebellion in the sight of the Lord, not for birth control.

 

[elvisman]

That is the point that is definitely open for debate and that is the main problem why there is such a controversy around the topic of ABC…

In Genesis 38 we see the following as context:

And it came about at that time, that Judah departed from his brothers and visited a certain Adullamite, whose name was Hirah. Judah saw there a daughter of a certain Canaanite whose name was Shua; and he took her and went in to her. So she conceived and bore a son and he named him Er. Then she conceived again and bore a son and named him Onan. She bore still another son and named him Shelah; and it was at Chezib that she bore him. Now Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, and her name was Tamar. But Er, Judah’s firstborn, was evil in the sight of the LORD, so the LORD took his life. Then Judah said to Onan, “Go in to your brother’s wife, and perform your duty as a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.”

Onan was told to perform what is called a levirate marriage. Er’s wife was without children and that meant that a kinsman redeemer had to help out here. The purpose for this was to simply not let the name of the father die and to take care of the widow. Whoever that redeemer was, he would have to impregnate the widow and then raise the child who would then be regarded as the deceased man’s child.
There are two ways to handle such a situation for the next of kin:

1. Do as he was told according to the Law.
2. Decline and ask the next in line to do the job (as seen in the book of Ruth)

Onan however did neither:
Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife, he wasted his seed on the ground in order not to give offspring to his brother.
Onan did not practice birth control. He disobeyed the Law of the Lord and practiced deliberate and rebellious rejection of the same. He did, as a result, reap what he sowed:
What he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD; so He took his life also.

Onan was killed for disobedience and rebellion in the sight of the Lord, not for birth control.

I don’t know how many times I have to point out the fact that the disobedience of Onan was NOT a capital offense against the Law. Deut. 25:9* is adamantly*** clear on this point – read it for yourself.**

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**If he had only refused to enter his brother’s wife - Onan would have been publicly humiliated by her. However, this ISN’T what happened. Onan spilled his seed on the ground. He wasted the life-giving substance that God provided for him to fulfill his duty. Onan signed his own death warrant when he withdrew from Tamar – NOT because he violated the Law. **

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He was killed because he spit in the face of God because he wasted life – not because he disobeyed a minor Law.

 

[Janet1983]

I don’t know how many times I have to point out the fact that the disobedience of Onan was NOT a capital offense against the Law. Deut. 25:9 is adamantly clear on this point – read it for yourself.

If he had only refused to enter his brother’s wife - Onan would have been publicly humiliated by her. However, this ISN’T what happened. Onan spilled his seed on the ground. He wasted the life-giving substance that God provided for him to fulfill his duty. Onan signed his own death warrant when he withdrew from Tamar – NOT because he violated the Law.

He was killed because he spit in the face of God because he wasted life – not because he disobeyed a minor Law.

I don’t think there is anything “minor” in this law… I did give you an example in which the redeemer gave it over to the next in line. That is not at all a problem and it did not create one as the widow (Ruth) was taken care of by Boaz.
Onan was rebellious and disobedient. He might have thought the way Ruth’s next of kin thought: I cannot redeem it for myself, lest I mar mine own inheritance, but he neither made sure that there was somebody taking care of the widow nor did he do it himself. That is the pillar of dishonesty.
He was a rebellious liar who deliberately broke God’s Law.

 

[elvisman]

I don’t think there is anything “minor” in this law… I did give you an example in which the redeemer gave it over to the next in line. That is not at all a problem and it did not create one as the widow (Ruth) was taken care of by Boaz.
Onan was rebellious and disobedient. He might have thought the way Ruth’s next of kin thought: I cannot redeem it for myself, lest I mar mine own inheritance, but he neither made sure that there was somebody taking care of the widow nor did he do it himself. That is the pillar of dishonesty.
He was a rebellious liar who deliberately broke God’s Law.

Then you need to read Deut. 25:9.

**The sin of disobedience for the refusal of having children with the wife of his brother was simple public humiliation. NEVER does it say that the man shall die. **

Not only was this sin condemned in the OT but the Early Church Fathers unanimously condemn coitus interruptus from the FIRST century on.

Onan was killed by God because of the act of spilling his seed on the ground - and you haven’t proven otherwise. All you have done is deny Deut 25:9 . . .

 

[schaick]

Then you need to read Deut. 25:9.

The sin of disobedience for the refusal of having children with the wife of his brother was simple public humiliation. NEVER does it say that the man shall die.

Not only was this sin condemned in the OT but the Early Church Fathers unanimously condemn coitus interruptus from the FIRST century on.

Onan was killed by God because of the act of spilling his seed on the ground - and you haven’t proven otherwise. All you have done is deny Deut 25:9 . . .

LOL!!

How many men do you know that have followed Deuteronomy 25?
Married the widow of his brother to have children with her to continue the dead brother’s line?

**Leviticus 15 **

 

[elvisman]

LOL!!

How many men do you know that have followed Deuteronomy 25?
Married the widow of his brother to have children with her to continue the dead brother’s line?

**Leviticus 15 **

I don’t know one single man who follows the Mosaic Law to the letter.
What’s your point? It was prescribed in the Mosaic LAW for a man **to marry the widow of his brother to have children with her to continue the dead brother’s line. **
Are you denying that?

Also - what on earth does Lev. 15 have to do with the sin of Onan? Lev. 15:16 is not talking about sin - it’s about uncleanness.

Ummm . . . can I get an "LOL!" to that?

 

[Janet1983]

Then you need to read Deut. 25:9.

The sin of disobedience for the refusal of having children with the wife of his brother was simple public humiliation. NEVER does it say that the man shall die.

Not only was this sin condemned in the OT but the Early Church Fathers unanimously condemn coitus interruptus from the FIRST century on.

Onan was killed by God because of the act of spilling his seed on the ground - and you haven’t proven otherwise. All you have done is deny Deut 25:9 . . .

I have not denied it. I simply stated that Onan did neither (refuse or do the job). He broke the Law. He handled it like the son who said he’d go into the vineyard and didn’t do it.

 

[elvisman]

I have not denied it. I simply stated that Onan did neither (refuse or do the job). He broke the Law. He handled it like the son who said he’d go into the vineyard and didn’t do it.

Janet - for the LAST time:
Onan broke the Law - which required ONLY his publlic humiliation as a penalty.

He was KILLED by God for spilling his seed on the ground.
I suggest you read Deut. 25:9 slowly . . .*

 

[Janet1983]

Janet - for the LAST time:
Onan broke the Law - which required ONLY his publlic humiliation as a penalty.

He was KILLED by God for spilling his seed on the ground.
I suggest you read Deut. 25:9 slowl*y . . .

He could have legally opted out and gotten away with a humiliation (as the widow would not be taken care of at all) or he could have fulfilled his obligation (which he wasn’t willing to do).
He broke the Law, defied the Lord and reaped what he sowed.

 

[PLeeD]

So Onan pulls out and is killled… Then Judah goes and sleeps with what he thinks is a prostitute, and he goes on like nothing happened? Not really understanding the justice involved here.

 

[elvisman]

So Onan pulls out and is killled… Then Judah goes and sleeps with what he thinks is a prostitute, and he goes on like nothing happened? Not really understanding the justice involved here.

Really illustrates just how evil contraception is, doesn’t it.
Thanks for the example.