SPLIT: Leviticus 15

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God’s anger was directed not at the sexual act, but at Onan’s disobedience by refusing to impregnate his brother’s widow. He abused his legal obligations by consenting to having sexual intercourse with Tamar and without impregnating her. He used her for his own pleasure and then he refused to perform his familial and legal duties of producing an heir for his brother (thereby also risking provisions for her in the future). After that he could have also easily married other women besides Tamar (and having children with them), chaining her to himself without the prospect of having children at all. Or he could have accused her of being infertile to divorce her, making her financial situation even worse.
Either way his behavior was abusive, rebellious and just plain wrong.
That displeased the Lord and Onan was put to death by Him for this rebellion.
 
Janet1983 said:
Are you going for insults now? Very convincing indeed.
God’s anger was directed not at the sexual act, but at Onan’s disobedience by refusing to impregnate his brother’s widow. He abused his legal obligations by consenting to having sexual intercourse with Tamar and without impregnating her. He used her for his own pleasure and then he refused to perform his familial and legal duties of producing an heir for his brother (thereby also risking provisions for her in the future). After that he could have also easily married other women besides Tamar (and having children with them), chaining her to himself without the prospect of having children at all. Or he could have accused her of being infertile to divorce her, making her financial situation even worse.
Either way his behavior was abusive, rebellious and just plain wrong.
That displeased the Lord and Onan was put to death by Him for this rebellion.
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**I see - so now you have taken it upon yourself to change Mosaic Law.

Not surprising since Protestantism itself is a rebellious act, taking upon each individual to pick, choose and change what they will.
Your will - not God’s . . .
 
elvisman said:
I don’t know one single man who follows the Mosaic Law to the letter.
What’s your point? It was prescribed in the Mosaic LAW for a man **to marry the widow of his brother to have children with her to continue the dead brother’s line. **
Are you denying that?

Also - what on earth does Lev. 15 have to do with the sin of Onan? Lev. 15:16 is not talking about sin - it’s about uncleanness. 🤷

Ummm . . . can I get an "LOL!" to that? :rolleyes:
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Do Jews even follow this rule today?

To be literal about this ruling- you must be lying with your dead brothers wife and you must intentionaly spill your seed because you don’t want to further his line- to warrant a death sentence.

**Leviticus 15 has **everything ****to do with it because it explains that the act of spilling the seed is unclean when paired with a woman nothing more:

18 When a man lies with a woman and there is an emission of semen, both must bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening.

Onan’s intent was **evil **because he did not want to further his brothers line. It is because of this, his intent- not the spilling of his seed that he was killed.
 
schaick said:
Do Jews even follow this rule today?

To be literal about this ruling- you must be lying with your dead brothers wife and you must intentionaly spill your seed because you don’t want to further his line- to warrant a death sentence.

**Leviticus 15 has **everything ****to do with it because it explains that the act of spilling the seed is unclean when paired with a woman nothing more:

18 When a man lies with a woman and there is an emission of semen, both must bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening.

Onan’s intent was **evil **because he did not want to further his brothers line. It is because of this, his intent- not the spilling of his seed that he was killed.
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Get this clear:
"Emission" is not “spilling”. Lev. 15:18 has nothing to do with this because emission is what happens during the conjugal act.

Lev. 15:16 is talking about "nocturnal emissions" - not intentional masturbation.

Perhaps a rudimentary study on health might clear this up for you. 👍
 
schaick said:
Do Jews even follow this rule today?

To be literal about this ruling- you must be lying with your dead brothers wife and you must intentionaly spill your seed because you don’t want to further his line- to warrant a death sentence.

**Leviticus 15 has **everything ****to do with it because it explains that the act of spilling the seed is unclean when paired with a woman nothing more:

18 When a man lies with a woman and there is an emission of semen, both must bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening.

Onan’s intent was **evil **because he did not want to further his brothers line. It is because of this, his intent- not the spilling of his seed that he was killed.
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Lev. 15:16** is NOT about spilling one’s seed intentionally, as Onan did.**
It is about nocturnal emissions. A rudimentary study of men’s health would answer that for you. It wasn’t sinful – but he was considered unclean until he bathed.
Lev. 15:16** is NOT about spilling one’s seed on the ground at all. It is about the conjugal act. It wasn’t sinful – but they were considered unclean until they bathed.**
**Onan’s sin was in the intentional wasting of his seed - not for simple disobedience. ****As I’ve proven several times already - not fulfilling his obligations to his brother’s wife only required that he be publically humilated according to the Law - nothing more.
Finally** - Just because nobody follows the Law to the letter doesn’t mean it didn’t exist. I don’t know WHERE you get that from. Paul says over and over and over in his letters that the Law was impossible to live up to – but the Jews were still required to adhere to it – until Christ, that is.**
 
elvisman said:
Finally** - Just because nobody follows the Law to the letter doesn’t** mean it didn’t exist. I don’t know WHERE you get that from. Paul says over and over and over in his letters that the Law was impossible to live up to – but the Jews were still required to adhere to it – until Christ, that is.
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Well there IS a law about Levirate marriage / Yibbum in Deuteronomy 25:5-6 and Halizah in Deuteronomy 25:7-10. Most Jews still practice that, though Halizah is much more common today.
There is however no law prohibiting contraception, contragestion or any form of autoeroticism in Scripture (though the latter may be severely restricted by Matthew 5:27-30).
The Lord did not give an explicit commandment concerning that, though He did concerning a large variety of other details. Anybody who has ever read through Deuteronomy will know.
If you take a closer look at Leviticus 15 however you will realize a couple of things:
**2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them: When any man hath an issue out of his flesh, his issue is unclean.
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ב דַּבְּרוּ אֶל-בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, וַאֲמַרְתֶּם אֲלֵהֶם: אִישׁ אִישׁ, כִּי יִהְיֶה זָב מִבְּשָׂרוֹ–זוֹבוֹ, טָמֵא הוּא​
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3 And this shall be his uncleanness in his issue: whether his flesh run with his issue, or his flesh be stopped from his issue, it is his uncleanness.
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ג וְזֹאת תִּהְיֶה טֻמְאָתוֹ, בְּזוֹבוֹ: רָר בְּשָׂרוֹ אֶת-זוֹבוֹ, אוֹ-הֶחְתִּים בְּשָׂרוֹ מִזּוֹבוֹ–טֻמְאָתוֹ, הִוא​
**
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**If Leviticus 15:16 was not about spilling one’s seed intentionally, why then does Leviticus 15:3 talk about the possibility of stopping the flesh? Obviously spilling one’s seed does lead to ritual uncleanness (not death) and it does not matter how it happened. **
**The prohibition of contraception is not explicitly named in the Law anyways, but you just stated yourself, that “nobody follows the Law to the letter” and that it is"impossible to live up to".
**"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: **
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that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." (Romans 3:19-20)
So what is your point? We cannot be saved by the Law, wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. **

(Honestly… I don’t even understand why you go through this much trouble to format stuff… I certainly won’t do it again and as I can’t read anything, not even in my text, I’ll continue to destroy your beautiful work of art when I quote you. I’m sorry… Though the colors here are pretty neat looking I think.)
 
Janet1983 said:
Well there IS a law about Levirate marriage / Yibbum in Deuteronomy 25:5-6 and Halizah in Deuteronomy 25:7-10. Most Jews still practice that, though Halizah is much more common today.
There is however no law prohibiting contraception, contragestion or any form of autoeroticism in Scripture (though the latter may be severely restricted by Matthew 5:27-30).
The Lord did not give an explicit commandment concerning that, though He did concerning a large variety of other details. Anybody who has ever read through Deuteronomy will know.
If you take a closer look at Leviticus 15 however you will realize a couple of things:

If Leviticus 15:16 was not about spilling one’s seed intentionally, why then does Leviticus 15:3 talk about the possibility of stopping the flesh? Obviously spilling one’s seed does lead to ritual uncleanness (not death) and it does not matter how it happened.
The prohibition of contraception is not explicitly named in the Law anyways, but you just stated yourself, that “nobody follows the Law to the letter” and that it is"impossible to live up to".

So what is your point? We cannot be saved by the Law, wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

(Honestly… I don’t even understand why you go through this much trouble to format stuff… I certainly won’t do it again and as I can’t read anything, not even in my text, I’ll continue to destroy your beautiful work of art when I quote you. I’m sorry… Though the colors here are pretty neat looking I think.)
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**What is my point? It is certainly NOT about the Law. I only brought up the Law because you and Schaick were falsely asserting things about it. **

And, ummm . . . gee - I’m not the one who brought up why the Church condemns contraception in the first place. I was simply defending it using Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

**Neither you nor Schaick has presented even a remotely defensible case as to why Onan would have been killed for simple disobedience. I have already proven a number of times (using Deut. 25:9) that the penalty for his disobedience would have been a simple public humiliation - NOT death. **

Remember - not every Law that was broken was punishible by death. That’s where you and Schaick falter.

Bottom line: Contraception - spilling his seed on the ground was why God struck him down.
 
elvisman said:
What is my point? It is certainly NOT about the Law. I only brought up the Law because you and Schaick were falsely asserting things about it.

And, ummm . . . gee - I’m not the one who brought up why the Church condemns contraception in the first place. I was simply defending it using Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

Neither you nor Schaick has presented even a remotely defensible case as to why Onan would have been killed for simple disobedience. I have already proven a number of times (using Deut. 25:9) that the penalty for his disobedience would have been a simple public humiliation - NOT death.

Remember - not every Law that was broken was punishible by death. That’s where you and Schaick falter.

Bottom line: Contraception - spilling his seed on the ground was why God struck him down.
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We will have to agree to disagree.

I never said Onan was *killed for simple disobdience, *it was for his evil intentions.

You believes GOD kills for spilling seed. Leviticus 15 shows HE does not.

Onan used his brother’s wife to **fullfull **his **sexual desires **yet not wanting to further his brothers line out of **greed?, jealousy?, selfishness-yes, **spilled his seed multiple times. Onan was using sex immorally.

8 Then Judah said to Onan, “Lie with your brother’s wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother.” 9 But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother’s wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the LORD’s sight; so he put him to death also.
 
schaick said:
We will have to agree to disagree.

I never said Onan was *killed for simple disobdience, *it was for his evil intentions.

You believes GOD kills for spilling seed. Leviticus 15 shows HE does not.

Onan used his brother’s wife to **fullfull **his **sexual desires **yet not wanting to further his brothers line out of **greed?, jealousy?, selfishness-yes, **spilled his seed multiple times. Onan was using sex immorally.

8 Then Judah said to Onan, “Lie with your brother’s wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother.” 9 But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother’s wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the LORD’s sight; so he put him to death also.
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**Wrong. **
**The verses in **Lev. 15 are about conjugal union between a man and woman and nocturnal emission - not masturbation.
Onan was killed for intentionally contracepting. THAT’S why God killed him.

You can agree to disagree all you want - but every time you contracept or tell others it is okay to do so - you are offending God. I’ll pray that you have a change of heart, friend . . .
 
Janet1983 said:
There is however no law prohibiting contraception, contragestion or any form of autoeroticism in Scripture (though the latter may be severely restricted by Matthew 5:27-30).
The Lord did not give an explicit commandment concerning that, though He did concerning a large variety of other details. Anybody who has ever read through Deuteronomy will know.
If you take a closer look at Leviticus 15 however you will realize a couple of things:

If Leviticus 15:16 was not about spilling one’s seed intentionally, why then does Leviticus 15:3 talk about the possibility of stopping the flesh? Obviously spilling one’s seed does lead to ritual uncleanness (not death) and it does not matter how it happened.
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This is a complete failure to understanbd the text. What you need to do is look at a few other translations to understand what Lev 15:3 is talking about. It is talking about some sort of flow or seepage caused by disease. Here is the verse - in CONTEXT:
***The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, ***
**"Speak to the Israelites and tell them: Every man who is afflicted with a chronic flow from his private parts is thereby unclean. **
**Such is his uncleanness from this flow that it makes no difference whether the flow drains off or is blocked up; his uncleanness remains. **
***Any bed on which the man afflicted with the flow lies, is unclean, and any piece of furniture on which he sits, is unclean. ***
Anyone who touches his bed shall wash his garments, bathe in water, and be unclean until evening.
Whoever sits on a piece of furniture on which the afflicted man was sitting, shall wash his garments, bathe in water, and be unclean until evening.

You see - this has NOTHING whatsoever to do with willful wasting of male seed (masturbation) - so your entire position on Lev. 15:3 is erroneous from the start.
 
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