(SPLIT) Mike Gendron's "Who Holds the Keys?"

[thenobes]

A correction.

, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere." book 3, chpt 3.

This sentence does not make sense translated like this. It should be:

…“that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition of doing such has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere…”

"ad hanc enim ecclesiam
propter potentiorem principalitatem
necesse est omnem convenire ecclesiam
hoc est eos qui sunt undique fideles
in qua
semper ab his qui sunt undique conservata est ea quae est ab apostolis traditio.
"
Note the repetition of the feminine gender pronoun bolded above.
“In qua”=“in that”. In what though? For the sake of the previous thing stated! “Ea quae”= “that which”. What thing which? The thing talked about previously, that is agreement with the Church at Rome. A comma between “Ea” and “quae” would show this clearly but unfortunately Latin had none.

Carry on!!

peace
steve

 

[zz912]

Crochet lady, the author of that article clearly didn’t do his homework. The “keys to the kingdom” are prefigured in Isaiah 22.

I noticed this glaring omission right away. Funny how he COMPLETELY ignores it. If he actually referenced it, it would demolish his argument.

You have to wonder about someone so invested in their own viewpoint that they refuse to admit basic truths.

 

[crochet_lady]

James The Just

I looked up Isaiah 22 and found you’re reference to vs. 22 “The key of the house of David I will lay on his shoulder; So he shall open, and no one shall shut. And he shall shut, and no one shall open.”

My Bible also has a footnote that refers the reader back to Isaiah 9:6 “For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His Shoulder, And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace”
vs. 7 “Of the increase of His government and peace. There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom. To order it and establish it with judgement and justice; From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.”

 

[JamesTheJust]

James The Just

I looked up Isaiah 22 and found you’re reference to vs. 22 “The key of the house of David I will lay on his shoulder; So he shall open, and no one shall shut. And he shall shut, and no one shall open.”

My Bible also has a footnote that refers the reader back to Isaiah 9:6 “For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His Shoulder, And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace”
vs. 7 “Of the increase of His government and peace. There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom. To order it and establish it with judgement and justice; From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.”

Those passages are irrelevant. In Isaiah 22 we see the King and his Steward. The King, though he has all authority over the Kingdom, gives his power, in the form of keys, to his Steward. The Steward, though he is not the King, then has all authority over the Kingdom, just as the King does, in the King’s absence.

Now, fast-forward to Matthew 16, where Christ blesses threefold and gives him “the keys of the kingdom of Heaven” so that "whatever you [Peter] bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Christ uses this language for a reason. Why? To demonstrate the parallels between what is happening to Peter and what happened to the Steward! Every Jew of that time would have recognized this language and realized what was going on. Christ was paralleling himself with the King and Peter with the Steward. He was giving Peter all authority over His Kingdom, the Church, while He was absent, just like the King gave the Steward all authority over his Kingdom while he was absent.

 

[ahs]

James The Just

I looked up Isaiah 22 and found you’re reference to vs. 22 “The key of the house of David I will lay on his shoulder; So he shall open, and no one shall shut. And he shall shut, and no one shall open.”

My Bible also has a footnote that refers the reader back to Isaiah 9:6 “For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His Shoulder, And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace”
vs. 7 “Of the increase of His government and peace. There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom. To order it and establish it with judgement and justice; From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.”

My footnote directs me to Rev 3:7. But let’s look at the implication you make here. Is 22:22 is about Christ. So, Christ has the Keys of the Kingdom. Yet in Matthew Christ explicitly tells Simon, “you are Peter…I will give you [Peter] the keys of the Kingdom”.

So, if Is 22 is about Christ, and the keys are handed to Him, then who is now holding those keys in light of what Christ says in Mt 16:19? According to Scripture, it’s Peter. That’s what the Bible says, and that’s what Catholics believe.

 

[crochet_lady]

Regarding the article I was suggesting to Jharek Carnellon – as I was trying to find it again – the internet said to ‘retry’ and it came up on the 2nd try – and there Are a lot of articles listed uder Mr Gendron’s name. But I found the same one under
“Who holds the keys – Proclaiming the Gospel”
So it’s possible that what ya’ll found was Not what I intended to share.
So – take a moment to type in the title I’ve just shared. And see if you find That one.
Seems that I need to be ‘bookmarking’ articles / rechecking them more first. I’ve printed out a Lot of articles , but not taken the time to make sure they can be relocated as easily as I’ve located them originally.

 

[JamesTheJust]

Regarding the article I was suggesting to Jharek Carnellon – as I was trying to find it again – the internet said to ‘retry’ and it came up on the 2nd try – and there Are a lot of articles listed uder Mr Gendron’s name. But I found the same one under
“Who holds the keys – Proclaiming the Gospel”
So it’s possible that what ya’ll found was Not what I intended to share.
So – take a moment to type in the title I’ve just shared. And see if you find That one.
Seems that I need to be ‘bookmarking’ articles / rechecking them more first. I’ve printed out a Lot of articles , but not taken the time to make sure they can be relocated as easily as I’ve located them originally.

We got the right article, crochet lady. Church Militant refuted it excellently earlier in the thread. Now why don’t you respond to my post about Isaiah 22 (which is, hilariously and coincidentally, post #22)?

 

[Church_Militant]

Regarding the article I was suggesting to Jharek Carnellon – as I was trying to find it again – the internet said to ‘retry’ and it came up on the 2nd try – and there Are a lot of articles listed uder Mr Gendron’s name. But I found the same one under
“Who holds the keys – Proclaiming the Gospel”
So it’s possible that what ya’ll found was Not what I intended to share.
So – take a moment to type in the title I’ve just shared. And see if you find That one.
Seems that I need to be ‘bookmarking’ articles / rechecking them more first. I’ve printed out a Lot of articles , but not taken the time to make sure they can be relocated as easily as I’ve located them originally.

Oh we have the right article alright and if you want to discuss it, then perhaps you can start with this post.

You see, a number of us are well familiar with Mike Gendron and his anti-Catholic “ministry”. Look here and you’ll see that I personally have refuted his teaching errors several times over and will continue to do so as needed. If you are one of those people who labor under the mistaken belief that Gendron is teaching authentic Biblical doctrines and that his take on the Catholic faith is correct then you need to see my articles and begin to prayerfully question whether or not you have been deceived by him on both counts.

Remember James 3:1

 

[Mr_Clean]

Instead of repeatedly sharing internet links to sites that are obviously biased against the Catholic Church could share some official statements from the Baptist Church?

If somebody wants to know official Baptist doctrine where do you find it?

 

[crochet_lady]

Will respond to several of ya’ll at the same time

For one thing – I’d found the article “Who holds the keys?” on another Forum / Rapture Forum’s.com. Was having trouble relocating it – typed in the title of the article and relocated it under that other guy – No clue as to who he is…

Maybe Instead of ‘seeing others’ as being anti-Catholic – a person could simply be ‘seeing’ another perspective of God’s Word.

Is it possible that sometimes ‘we’ have our own concepts of what we Want God’s Word to say and simply don’t like to hear what someone else has to say on a particular subject?! And I KNOW that you’re applying that comment to Me.

And I Did take a moment to click in to ‘Church Militant’s’ link / comments – duly noted.

Okay – ‘keys’ open doors – I have to have the correct key to get into my house. Is it Possible that the ‘key’ being refered to in Matt – is the ‘key’ of the Gospel. vs. 13 “Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples,saying, Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?” Jesus is asking 'who do men say that I am? vs 14 “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” vs 15 " He said to them, But who do You say that I am?" vs 16 "Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the son of the living God.”
vs. 17 “Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, But “My Father who is in heaven.”
Isn’t Jesus Christ telling him that he has learned this truth from 'My Father who is in heaven.” Referring to the fact that he is believing that Jesus , whom they are talking to , is indeed Christ, the son of the Living God.”
and vs. 18 would be referring to the solid rock of our salvation Is Jesus Christ – Psalm 62 refers to God as the rock of our salvation. – Peter’s confession of Jesus Christ being the Son of God – is the ‘rock’ , the foundation of the Church that is built on Jesus Christ as the Son of God.
That the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the ‘key’ that opens the ‘door’ of eternal life with God / heaven Or the ‘key’ that ‘opens’ the door to eternal life in the lake of fire and brimstone. If a person rejects the ‘key’ to heaven – accepting Jesus Christ’s gift of salvation – the alternative is the Lake of Fire and brimstone. That is talked about in Rev. 20: 10 and following verses to the end of the chapter.
And the Gospel unto salvation is found in 1 Corinthians 15: 1 - 4. and Romans 10: 9 and 10.

Where is official Baptist church doctrine Found? God’s Word. Actually I really don’t like the term ‘Baptist’ doctrine. My parents were Presbyterian but changed to being Baptist because they learned through a Bible study that New Testament ’ believer’s baptism’ is by immersion. It means being totally immersed / covered by a substance / Water. And in the New Testament – people were taken to bodies of water – whatever body of water was nearby at the time. After a person accepts Jesus Christ as Savior – the Holy Spirit gives them a desire to be obedient to God/ their Heavenly Father. And He wants a believer to be sharing their decision with other people of what they have already believed in their heart.
God Wants us to be reading / studying His Word so that we Can know how to live a Godly life. The book of Philippians is a wonderful book – chapter 4 :8 “Finally brethren, whatever things, are noble, just, pure, lovely, of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy – meditate on these things.”
1 Corinthians 10:31 "Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of god. vs. 32 “Give ;no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God”

Mr. Clean – apparently you want links About the Baptist church? Rather than simply those being anti-Catholic? You Might be interested in C.A.R.M. Unless you’re simply being a bit ‘carcastic’ in your comment:?! Actually I usually am reading God’s Word. and then looking up questions about passages – do cross referencing.

 

[crochet_lady]

James the Just

I think I over-looked your question about Isaiah 22: 22 – “The key to the house of David” – the throne of David – would always have a ‘ruler’ – this is off the top of my head. The ‘line’ of David / Mary and maybe Joseph were of the House and lineage of David.
Matthew starts out with the the Geneology of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the son of Abraham,

Luke 2: 4 " Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethleham, because he was of the house and lineage of David."

Okay – it was Joseph.

Okay – the ‘key’ Is Jesus Christ / His death, burial and resurrection. That is the Gospel. The ‘key’ Is the Gospel.

Galatians 2:7 - 9 Paul is the author of the book and talking "On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles just as Peter had been to the Jews. For God who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews , was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles
vs 9 "James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews,

So Eliakim is being compared to Peter? vs 21 -house of Judah – the Jews – Christ. — am I following your line of reasoning? ???

 

[JamesTheJust]

Maybe Instead of ‘seeing others’ as being anti-Catholic – a person could simply be ‘seeing’ another perspective of God’s Word.

No, anti-Catholicism is not “another perspective”. It’s uncharitable, vile, and non-Christlike.

Okay – ‘keys’ open doors – I have to have the correct key to get into my house. Is it Possible that the ‘key’ being refered to in Matt – is the ‘key’ of the Gospel. vs. 13 “Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples,saying, Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?” Jesus is asking 'who do men say that I am? vs 14 “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” vs 15 " He said to them, But who do You say that I am?" vs 16 "Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the son of the living God.”
vs. 17 “Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, But “My Father who is in heaven.”
Isn’t Jesus Christ telling him that he has learned this truth from 'My Father who is in heaven.” Referring to the fact that he is believing that Jesus , whom they are talking to , is indeed Christ, the son of the Living God.”
and vs. 18 would be referring to the solid rock of our salvation Is Jesus Christ – Psalm 62 refers to God as the rock of our salvation. – Peter’s confession of Jesus Christ being the Son of God – is the ‘rock’ , the foundation of the Church that is built on Jesus Christ as the Son of God.

First of all, no, it’s not possible for the “keys” in Matthew 16 to be the “keys to the Gospel”. They are the “keys to the Kingdom of Heaven”. Christ is transferring all power over the Church to Peter, by paralleling the event with Isaiah 22. Every Jew of that time would have understood that. Here’s a challenge, crochet lady: find me one, just one, Church Father who states that the “keys” are the “keys of the Gospel”. Can you do that?

Secondly, if Simon Bar-Jonah wasn’t the Rock, what would be the point of Christ renaming him “Rock”?

Where is official Baptist church doctrine Found? God’s Word.

No, it’s found in your interpretation of God’s Word (the fullness of which you lack, having rejected 7 books of the Bible and the whole of Sacred Tradition).

 

[JamesTheJust]

James the Just

I think I over-looked your question about Isaiah 22: 22 – “The key to the house of David” – the throne of David – would always have a ‘ruler’ – this is off the top of my head. The ‘line’ of David / Mary and maybe Joseph were of the House and lineage of David.
Matthew starts out with the the Geneology of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the son of Abraham,

Luke 2: 4 " Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethleham, because he was of the house and lineage of David."

Okay – it was Joseph.

Okay – the ‘key’ Is Jesus Christ / His death, burial and resurrection. That is the Gospel. The ‘key’ Is the Gospel.

Galatians 2:7 - 9 Paul is the author of the book and talking "On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles just as Peter had been to the Jews. For God who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews , was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles
vs 9 "James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews,

So Eliakim is being compared to Peter? vs 21 -house of Judah – the Jews – Christ. — am I following your line of reasoning? ???

I can’t really understand what your first few paragraphs are saying. Are you saying that Joseph was the King and Christ was the Steward? If so, that makes no sense. St Joseph had no authority over the Church.

If the key is the Gospel, than why does it symbolize authority in Isaiah 22? Could you find me a biblical passage that says that the key is the Gospel? If not, then I’ll stick with what the Bible says- that the keys mean authority- rather than what people want it to say- that the keys mean the Gospel.

 

[Amandil]

James the Just

I think I over-looked your question about Isaiah 22: 22 – “The key to the house of David” – the throne of David – would always have a ‘ruler’ – this is off the top of my head. The ‘line’ of David / Mary and maybe Joseph were of the House and lineage of David.
Matthew starts out with the the Geneology of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the son of Abraham,

Luke 2: 4 " Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethleham, because he was of the house and lineage of David."

Okay – it was Joseph.

Okay – the ‘key’ Is Jesus Christ / His death, burial and resurrection. That is the Gospel. The ‘key’ Is the Gospel.

Galatians 2:7 - 9 Paul is the author of the book and talking "On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles just as Peter had been to the Jews. For God who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews , was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles
vs 9 "James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews,

So Eliakim is being compared to Peter? vs 21 -house of Judah – the Jews – Christ. — am I following your line of reasoning? ???

You’re simply incorrect.

The “keys” of authority in the Davidic dynasty of Kings was given to the “albiet” -this is not a person but an office(literally he who is “over-the house”). This was the office of steward or prime minister, who was in charge of the other stewards and which ran the household while the King was away or indisposed.

Thus, Jesus left earth for heaven, and since Jesus’ kingdom is a Davidic Kingdom, He also established an “albeit” for His Kingdom until His return.

The “keys” are the sign of authority over the house. They are necessarily connected with the fact that cities in the ancient world had walls, and these walls had gates. The albiet, who possessed the keys, had the authority to “open” and “shut” the gates of the city, to expel those who broke the kings peace, or to “shut” the gates in case of it being under attack. Or to “open” the gates in the case of allowing the king’s people or allies into the city.

Theologically, they are representative to “binding” and “loosing” related to faith and morals of the Household of God.

So since the Kingdom of God is an eternal Kingdom, thus the “albeit” is an eternal office, perpetuated through the line of Bishops beginning with Peter, handed down to Linus(2 Tim 4:21), then Clement(Phil 4:3), so on in an unbroken line to today.

The “keys” are not the Gospel, we already have a word for the Gospel, “the Gospel”; they “keys” are the authority which gives the Gospel its authority. Peter was specifically THE witness of the Gospel, the power which worked through him (Acts chapters 1-15) is the basis for his authority. He is “the rock” on which Christ builds His Church; Christ specifically identifies not only Peter, but his office as albiet, with Himself. As Jesus is “the Rock”, so also are His “albeit”, “the rock”.

 

[adrift]

The “keys” are not the Gospel, we already have a word for the Gospel, “the Gospel”; they “keys” are the authority which gives the Gospel its authority. Peter was specifically THE witness of the Gospel, the power which worked through him (Acts chapters 1-15) is the basis for his authority. He is “the rock” on which Christ builds His Church; Christ specifically identifies not only Peter, but his office as albiet, with Himself. As Jesus is “the Rock”, so also are His “albeit”, “the rock”.

crochet lady I must commend you for your attempt to dialog. I believe you are not trying to insult us by linking to websites that are unchristian. I do hope that much of what they say you can see is not Christian but that there are some things you agree with and wish to discuss with us.

The Scripture in question not only speaks of keys but of the founding of the Church.

And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

19

I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Jesus says that He is founding His Church on Peter, a name change. A name that means Rock. What Jesus said was your name is rock and upon this rock I will build my Church. There are only three people who’s names are changed Abraham, Sarah, and Isaac. God didn’t change names without it being momentous. Peter’s name was not changes superficially either. Jesus follows up the name change with “give” Jesus gives what? Keys. Gives who? Jesus is talking to Peter that is the who. What do the keys do? They bound and loose. This is plain the explanations I have been hearing have to really twist and turn the scripture to make it be the Gospel. Gospel would have to mean the good news it could not possibly be Scripture as it didn’t exist and nowhere does Jesus say go and write.

Of interest is the notes from the NAB

14 [19] The keys to the kingdom of heaven: the image of the keys is probably drawn from ⇒ Isaiah 22:15-25 where Eliakim, who succeeds Shebnah as master of the palace, is given “the key of the house of David,” which he authoritatively “opens” and “shuts” (⇒ Isaiah 22:22). Whatever you bind . . . loosed in heaven: there are many instances in rabbinic literature of the binding-loosing imagery. Of the several meanings given there to the metaphor, two are of special importance here: the giving of authoritative teaching, and the lifting or imposing of the ban of excommunication. It is disputed whether the image of the keys and that of binding and loosing are different metaphors meaning the same thing. In any case, the promise of the keys is given to Peter alone. In ⇒ Matthew 18:18 all the disciples are given the power of binding and loosing, but the context of that verse suggests that there the power of excommunication alone is intended. That the keys are those to the kingdom of heaven and that Peter’s exercise of authority in the church on earth will be confirmed in heaven show an intimate connection between, but not an identification of, the church and the kingdom of heaven.

 

[adrift]

do And in the New Testament – people were taken to bodies of water – whatever body of water was nearby at the time. After a person accepts Jesus Christ as Savior – the Holy Spirit gives them a desire to be obedient to God/ their Heavenly Father. And He wants a believer to be sharing their decision with other people of what they have already believed in their heart.
:

Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand persons were added that day.

This occurred in Jerusalem. What body of water was nearby that would accommodate that many people?

 

[Amandil]

crochet lady I must commend you for your attempt to dialog. I believe you are not trying to insult us by linking to websites that are unchristian. I do hope that much of what they say you can see is not Christian but that there are some things you agree with and wish to discuss with us.

The Scripture in question not only speaks of keys but of the founding of the Church.

Jesus says that He is founding His Church on Peter, a name change. A name that means Rock. What Jesus said was your name is rock and upon this rock I will build my Church. There are only three people who’s names are changed Abraham, Sarah, and Isaac. God didn’t change names without it being momentous. Peter’s name was not changes superficially either. Jesus follows up the name change with “give” Jesus gives what? Keys. Gives who? Jesus is talking to Peter that is the who. What do the keys do? They bound and loose. This is plain the explanations I have been hearing have to really twist and turn the scripture to make it be the Gospel. Gospel would have to mean the good news it could not possibly be Scripture as it didn’t exist and nowhere does Jesus say go and write.

Of interest is the notes from the NAB

I think that you may be mistaken. The “albiet” that I was referring to is Peter and the office papacy. Those were my comments supporting the papacy, not hers.

 

[spina1953]

When Jesus asked the Apostles who do people say I am they named several. Then Jesus asked them who do you say I am. They were silent except for Peter who said that Jesus was the Son of God. Now if Jesus was intending to build Churches he would not have to peter that he would build His Church, but would say churches. Jesus is the builder and Peter is the rock the key stone holding up all the rest( the Apostles) who he was to strengthen. The keys are the authority to bind and loose in heaven and on earth and nothing not even hell will prevail. Now if the Father in heaven revealed it to Peter why did He not reveal it to the rest of the Apostles? Because God the Father’s will was to have Peter be the leader that Jesus wanted His Church to be built on. To me that says a lot about what Jesus intended and the keys convey the intention that Jesus wanted one Church and that Peter would be the leader of that Church, the Apostles would be in union with Peter. Jesus never to my mind ever intended to have different churches each preaching a different Gospel or teaching different than what He taught the Apostles.

 

[adrift]

I think that you may be mistaken. The “albiet” that I was referring to is Peter and the office papacy. Those were my comments supporting the papacy, not hers.

I was not referring to you post. My comments are to what crochet Lady posted:shrug:

 

[adrift]

I think that you may be mistaken. The “albiet” that I was referring to is Peter and the office papacy. Those were my comments supporting the papacy, not hers.

I quoted you because I was agreeing with you:thumbsup: