SPLIT: Musical instruments at Mass

[pnewton]

I have a hard time trusting the genuineness of anyone who’s going to insist that drums and electric guitars (for instance) don’t fall into the category the document is talking about. And if they don’t, then what instruments on earth could the passage *possibly *be talking about?

Kazoos.

The logic is that instruments are not mentioned by name as they change over time.

 

[benedictgal]

Kazoos.

The logic is that instruments are not mentioned by name as they change over time.

But, drum kits and electric guitars are commonly ascribed to secular usage. Again, it’s like the South Park episode. Even if you try to add religious wording to a text, the sound still has the pop/soft rock genre. There is only so much lipstick you can put on a sow. In fact, you could put the entire Bare Escentuals collection on a sow’s face, but, she’ll still look like a sow. That is how it is with these instruments.

 

[benedictgal]

I never degraded you, I prayed for you. Your insults and condemnations of all music you disagree with is very elicit. You use the writing and rules of the church to judge others and insult our youth. You take away from the forgiveness and love that I see everyday in my walk with Christ. Did I forget to Capitalize christ…omg…am I in violation of the rules. That attitude is what you need to correct. My cultural music and the way I communicate with my creator is in union with the Cathilic Church. My pastor says so, my Bishop says so and my local community says so. Bob Hurd, a Doctorate of the Catholic Church, and professor at St. Patrick’s Seminary that teaches liturgy and trains catholic priests says so, so why shoud I take the word of some blogger that condemns all music that he/she doesn’t like. If I kneel when I shouldn’t and stand when it is incorrect, am I lost…No, you who judge… shall be judged… and you who act like all the world should submit to your musical tastes should open your heart and learn that the whole world does not conform with your translation of liturgy. All of my musicians love the traditional music you describe, but we also love the music of St Louis Jesuits, Dameans, Bob Hurd, Tom Boothe, John Michael Talbot and many other contemporary musicians as sacred. Pope John Paul kissed the feet of Melendez, the armless guitar player and he did not judge like you do in your rantings. So you are wrong if only by example…You are very insultive of our culture and that is what I distance myself from. The documents you always use to condemn music you disagree with also never agree with you. Reread them yourself…The documents encourage and inspire new generations to create and make holy the music of our local community in the Sacrifice of the Mass. You always say that we youth groups just do what feels good, but the opposite is true. The youth I see and minister too make a difficult choice to follow Christ. They need support and love and care, not condemnation of their music that praises our Lord…just because you don’t like THAT KIND of music.
I know this is a difficult lesson for you…but I pray you will open your heart Benedictgal and learn what grace has taught me.

May God Bless You Always,

Again, there is no need for insults and sacrasm. Mr. Hurd is not an authority in the Church. He has no right to introduce novelties into the Mass that should not be introduced. With all due respect, you are missing the point. It is you, I believe, who needs to open your heart and read what the documents of the Church state regarding sacred music. You have yet to provide one source that backs up your claims. As I read your posts, you are simply relying on what feels good to you. The Church does not operate on feelings, as these are fleeting. The Church has her standards, but, for whatever reason, you seem to be reluctant to even look at what these are.

 

[chriso]

Rather than looking for a document that expresses an outright prohibition on one particular musical instrument or style, why not try to cull the ideal from the documents that we have? Whether electric guitars and drums are allowed or not is perhaps not the point.

Does the Church express a preferred ideal? I think it does, and that the ideal is sacred chant, polyphony, and the organ. That does not mean that praise and worship music on guitars is per se proscribed, but just because something is allowed does not make it the best choice, or the clearly expressed preference of the Church.

Actually… the more I read the documents I think the Holy Fathers intentions are more aimed at ensuring the Organ and Chant dont go the way of the dinosaurs. He wants to ensure that piece of tradition isn’t lost to modern evolution and is stating how important it is, which I happen to agree with. However, he DOES NOT single out electric guitars or drums as being innappropriate. I do however, get the sense that an electric guitar with a serpents had body for example, would be innappropriate, but again I realize I’m not the “interprative authority” as compared to some who seem to think they are.

 

[chriso]

Rather than looking for a document that expresses an outright prohibition on one particular musical instrument or style, why not try to cull the ideal from the documents that we have? **Whether electric guitars and drums are allowed or not is perhaps not the point. **
Does the Church express a preferred ideal? I think it does, and that the ideal is sacred chant, polyphony, and the organ. That does not mean that praise and worship music on guitars is per se proscribed, but just because something is allowed does not make it the best choice, or the clearly expressed preference of the Church.

It actually is the point as near as I can tell, folks are taking a document that tells us to remember to consider the organ and chant as the highest forms of holy song and taking that to tell everyone that they are not “allowed” to play guitars or drums, or amplify a guitar… and that is NOT what the documents say.

 

[chriso]

I have a hard time trusting the genuineness of anyone who’s going to insist that drums and electric guitars (for instance) don’t fall into the category the document is talking about. And if they don’t, then what **instruments on earth could the passage *possibly ***be talking about?

Now thats an interesting question… again, I’m thinking of the electric guitars with the serpants head bodies maybe? Or drum kits with naked ladies painted on them maybe? Or the turntable and a DJ rubbing the LP back and forth to make that scratching sound? I cant think of many instruments “commonly used and suitable for “ONLY” secular music”. I dont think the Holy Father actually intended to rule out a whole lot of musical instruments to tell the truth, he more intended to ensure the organ retains its place of honor. Ironically, those who wish to inflict theirs wills upon the people obviously take this as an opportunity to use similar tactics as did the modernist crowd that they so resent, and grap power and force their wills upon everyone else. The more likely wish of Rome is for us to make sure we focus on the sacrifice, and play our instruments, and choose our songs, and hopefully write new songs, that line up with the sanctity and holiness of the sacrifice rather than detract or distract from it.

Again, what is says is:

“63. In permitting and using musical instruments, the culture and traditions of individual peoples must be taken into account. However, those instruments which are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration and from popular devotions.44”

It DOES NOT say: "NO ELECTRIC GUITARS ALLOWED"

Nor does it say: "suitable for secular music only such as ELECTRIC GUITARS"

I also might point out that the term “common opinon and use” does in fact include more opinions that just that of benedictal exclusively. There appear to be some who commonly have the opinion that guitars and drums are not “suitable for secular use ONLY”

Is a violin acceptable? Have you seen the YouTube vidoe of the “rock and roll” violinist? I’m sure if he were to play that way in Church most of us would agree its not “sacred music” I’ve seen harpists able to extract the same sounds from their instruments, yet most folks I’ve met seem to agree that harps and violins are acceptable for playing “sacred music”. “Silent Night” is often considered a sacred song, and it ws composed on a guitar. Most times when you see violins and harps played you can find a guitar in the mix too… often electrically amplifed as are the violins and harps occasionally too.

Its funny how the pendulum swings and how extremists exist on both ends of the spectrum. Those who quoth “exactly” and “specifically” what verses they believe prove their points, and then “interpret” the other stuff they need to seal the deal (in their minds anyway) Not all of us are so ignorant as to bite off on that type of shell game, hook, line, and sinker. We see that its the same game as those with extreme modernist views played on us all, only this time those with extreme views about our traditionalist values working to force their will.

I’m sorry some of you have had experiences with electric guitars that have so strongly scarred you. I have heard poorly played music on them, and beautiful music. Just like I’ve heard hacks on the organ, and maestros. Regardless of your personal opinions, Rome is not trying to take away the ONLY music we have available at our Church simply because YOU didnt like what you heard one time many miles away.

 

[benedictgal]

Chriso, please read what Pope Benedict wrote while he was still Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger:

On the one hand, there is pop music, which is certainly no longer supported by the people in the ancient sense (populus). It is aimed at the phenomenon of the masses, is industrially produced, and ultimately has to be described as a cult of the banal. “Rock”, on the other hand, is the expression of elemental passions, and at rock festivals it assumes a cultic character, a form of worship, in fact, in opposition to Christian worship. People are, so to speak, released from themselves by the emotional shock of rhythm, noise, and special lighting effects. However, in the ecstasy of having all their defenses torn down, the participants sink, as it were, beneath the elemental force of the universe. The music of the Holy Spirit’s sober inebriation seems to have little chance when self has become a prison, the mind is a shackle, and breaking out from both appears as a true promise of redemption that can be tasted at least for a few moments.

I submit to you that the instruments used in these genres are electric guitars and drum kits. The Holy Father also makes this additional observation:

On the one hand, there is the music that Plato ascribes, in line with mythology, to Apollo, the god of light and reason. This is the music that draws senses into spirit and so brings man to wholeness. It does not abolish the senses, but inserts them into the unity of this creature that is man. It elevates the spirit precisely by wedding it to the senses, and it elevates the senses by uniting them with the spirit. Thus this kind of music is an expression of man’s special place in the general structure of being. But then there is the music that Plato ascribes to Marsyas, which we might describe, in terms of cultic history, as “Dionysian”. It drags man into the intoxication of the senses, crushes rationality, and subjects the spirit to the senses. The way Plato (and more moderately, Aristotle) allots instruments and keys to one or other of these two kinds of music is now obsolete and may in many respects surprise us. But the Apollonian/Dionysian alternative runs through the whole history of religion and confronts us again today. Not every kind of music can have a place in Christian worship. It has its standards, and that standard is the Logos. If we want to know whom we are dealing with, the Holy Spirit or the unholy spirit, we have to remember that it is the Holy Spirit who moves us to say, “Jesus is Lord” (I Cor 12:3). The Holy Spirit leads us to the Logos, and He leads us to a music that serves the Logos as a sign of the sursum corda, the lifting up of the human heart. Does it integrate man by drawing him to what is above, or does it cause his disintegration into formless intoxication or mere sensuality? That is the criterion for a music in harmony with logos, a form of that logike latreia (reasonable, logos-worthy worship) of which we spoke in the first part of this book.

I submit to you that what the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger believed when he first wrote the book (and even before then) and what he holds as Pope Benedict XVI remains unchanged. If you note, there was a huge difference in musical instruments that were used at the 2008 WYD Mass than what was employed at the 2005 WYD Mass. Furthermore, he echoed the concerns that the Fathers of the 2005 Synod wrote when they said that there were issues with the music used at Youth Masses. I seriously doubt that the Fathers would not have leveled these complaints had the music been genuinely sacred. That is a point that proponents of electric guitars and drum kits seem to either ignore or turn a blind eye to and not want to face.

 

[benedictgal]

In my mind drums (percussion) means things like timpani, which when used with a brass quintet (2 trumpets, French Horn, Trombone, Tuba) is AMAZING (with an organ and choir of course). To see a fine example, step in to Christmas or Easter Mass in Downtown Madison(WI) at St. Patrick’s. It is AWESOME! Not to even mention the Bishop being there.

Yes. They do not necessarily mean something that is akin to a Jonas Brothers, Metallica, Duran Duran, Queen or a Beyonce concert.

 

[ac_claire]

Again…I understand people using rhetorical arguments, but really have a hard time trusting the seriousness of anyone who insists with a straight face that drums, electric guitars and the like (ie: standard popular/secular musical instruments) are not, in fact, primarily associated with popular and secular music. It just seem so blatently disingenuous.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

hahahaha… yeah, there is some truth to what you say if we were marketing a true product.

I never though of Christ that way… a “product”.

And in addition to His charity and kindness and patience… when He spoke and others refused to listen… He did not walk away… THEY DID.

.

MrS in part I am not jesting - Church authorities decide how much income each church should be generating. If it fails to meet this benchmark the priest is questioned, help is given, or the priest is relocated. If the priest excedes expectation he is promoted.

 

[pnewton]

But, drum kits and electric guitars are commonly ascribed to secular usage.

Yes, but do not forget that the operative word is
“only”, not “commonly” or “primarily”.

FYI - I have never used electric guitars or drums.

 

[benedictgal]

Yes, but do not forget that the operative word is
“only”, not “commonly” or “primarily”.

FYI - I have never used electric guitars or drums.

But, as Pope Paul VI notes, “not everything is fit to cross the threshold.”

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

How much to strip a church back is something difficult to find consensus.
Some of the Calvinist Churches of Europe are quite beautiful in their simplicity. Some of the Catholic Churches in their grandure appear to be ostentatious displays of wealth. Both Churches can be sources of distraction for disparite reasons.

 

[ljubim]

How much to strip a church back is something difficult to find consensus.
Some of the Calvinist Churches of Europe are quite beautiful in their simplicity. Some of the Catholic Churches in their grandure appear to be ostentatious displays of wealth. Both Churches can be sources of distraction for disparite reasons.

At least the beauty of sacred art and architecture leads you in the correct direction, wheras booming bass, crashing drums and scratchy guitars lead you in the wrong direction.

Beauty emphasizes the beauty of the Mass. Something appropriate to a fireside cigarette smoke or a dance club are ugly distractions and embarrassments to the Real Prescence of Our Lord, who we must console from these awful, ugly abominations to His house.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

At least the beauty of sacred art and architecture leads you in the correct direction, wheras booming bass, crashing drums and scratchy guitars lead you in the wrong direction.

Beauty emphasizes the beauty of the Mass. Something appropriate to a fireside cigarette smoke or a dance club are ugly distractions and embarrassments to the Real Prescence of Our Lord, who we must console from these awful, ugly abominations to His house.

Beauty is a personal thing - I understand you dislike “booming bass, crashing drums and scratchy guitars.”

 

[pnewton]

hahahaha… yeah, there is some truth to what you say if we were marketing a true product.

Perhaps they are just trying to walk in the way of St. Paul. After all, it is not like any doctrine is being compromised.

1 Corinthians 9

22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

23 And this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you

 

[chriso]

At least the beauty of sacred art and architecture leads you in the correct direction, wheras booming bass, crashing drums and scratchy guitars lead you in the wrong direction.

Beauty emphasizes the beauty of the Mass. Something appropriate to a fireside cigarette smoke or a dance club are ugly distractions and embarrassments to the Real Prescence of Our Lord, who we must console from these awful, ugly abominations to His house.

Again, I agree with you. Excepting I cannot connect the dots from poorly played and / or selected music being played (]booming bass, crashing drums and scratchy guitars) to presume to assume that these instruments played differently, prayerfully, cannot be also used to create music of beauty and sacred music, or that they are ONLY suited for “secular” music.

Its not the INSTRUMENTS that are guilty of these issues some many people harbor resentment over… its the players…

 

[chriso]

I submit to you that the instruments used in these genres are electric guitars and drum kits…

And lights and lasers and huge amplifiers turned up to maximum, and piano’s and even the modern version of the “organ”… and all played with no intent for making “sacred music”.

I submit, that I agree with you and the former Cardinal to a very large degree about his published perceptions of certain Rock concerts. However… as you have pointed out in many of your other posts… this quothe is far different… in fact very distinclty different from the verbage of the documents now published. The true ones which will need to be explained, defined, interpreted, in specificicity (and will be) by the Pope and Magesterium… not me and you from the digging up of other, non-binding opinions written in decades past. No disrespect intended, but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord… and will wait upon Romes interpretation…

I submit to you that what the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger believed when he first wrote the book (and even before then) and what he holds as Pope Benedict XVI remains unchanged. If you note, there was a huge difference in musical instruments that were used at the 2008 WYD Mass than what was employed at the 2005 WYD Mass. Furthermore, he echoed the concerns that the Fathers of the 2005 Synod wrote when they said that there were issues with the music used at Youth Masses. I seriously doubt that the Fathers would not have leveled these complaints had the music been genuinely sacred. That is a point that proponents of electric guitars and drum kits seem to either ignore or turn a blind eye to and not want to face.

I submit to you that you and I cant know that for a fact, or that even if he still believes every bit of what he wrote those years ago, and even if that truly means he believes that never should an electric guitar or bass or drums be used in a Mass… he will specify it for us… again, I will wait and not presume to judge or interpret for him.

 

[pnewton]

But, as Pope Paul VI notes, “not everything is fit to cross the threshold.”

I totally understand, particularly as it relates to certain music. But this quote (Pope John Paul II) was aimed at music, not musical instruments
adoremus.org/0204OnSacredMusic.html

In following the course of the teachings of Saint Pius X and of the Second Vatican Council, it is above all necessary to emphasize that music destined for the sacred rites must have as its point of reference sanctity: it in fact “will be the more holy the more closely it is united to the liturgical action”. Precisely because of this, “not all that which stands outside the temple (profanum) is fit to cross the threshold”,

 

[benedictgal]

I totally understand, particularly as it relates to certain music. But this quote (Pope John Paul II) was aimed at music, not musical instruments
adoremus.org/0204OnSacredMusic.html

But, you cannot divorce musical instruments from the music.