You most certainly can. A song can be arranged in many many ways.But, you cannot divorce musical instruments from the music.
They use the word “only” but the criteria is by “common opinion and use”…So if we go and poll a music store for instance and see what kind of music the last 100 electric guitars are being used for, or ask 100 or more people what kind of music electric guitars are used for, don’t you think most if not all are going to indicate secular music of some kind? I don’t believe that the odd unusual or out of the ordinary usage of electric guitars in “p&w” music proves anything. The music directors just have to use their common sense and interpret those documents as honestly as they can. It’s certainly not best to look at it all and see what we can “*technically *get away with” if you skew the argument a certain way and fixate on a single word in the document, you know? If this argument were happening anywhere but on this forum, I think people would laugh at us lol. I mean, are electric guitars and drums only commonly used for secular music? Are there really two opposite but equally valid answers to that question, honestly?Yes, but do not forget that the operative word is
“only”, not “commonly” or “primarily”.
FYI - I have never used electric guitars or drums.
I do not think that anyone would laugh in a court of law, and remember that the Catholic Church is larger than any nation on Earth. Words mean something. They can not be disregarded or substituted. I was not wanting to focus on any word, but rather to point out that arguements based on substituted words are not valid. Also, you might be surprised just how much business is done with Church’s in these music stores. It is not an insignigicant amount. I would be willing to bet that more than half the Evangelical Church’s in America use a Praise and Worship group of sorts. All the ones I know of do.It’s certainly not best to look at it all and see what we can “*technically *get away with” if you skew the argument a certain way and fixate on a single word in the document, you know? If this argument were happening anywhere but on this forum, I think people would laugh at us lol.
But, just becaue the Evangelical ecclesial communities are doing it, that does not mean that the Church follows their lead. She has her standards of music.I do not think that anyone would laugh in a court of law, and remember that the Catholic Church is larger than any nation on Earth. Words mean something. They can not be disregarded or substituted. I was not wanting to focus on any word, but rather to point out that arguements based on substituted words are not valid. Also, you might be surprised just how much business is done with Church’s in these music stores. It is not an insignigicant amount. I would be willing to bet that more than half the Evangelical Church’s in America use a Praise and Worship group of sorts. All the ones I know of do.
As I said earlier, I am aware of this. But this does constitute a use, and a large one, that is not a secular use.But, just becaue the Evangelical ecclesial communities are doing it, that does not mean that the Church follows their lead. She has her standards of music.
However, the primary use of these instruments is for secular music. Even if these were employed by the Protestants, the genre is under “Christian” rock. You can change the color of the lipstick, but, the person wearing it is still the same.As I said earlier, I am aware of this. But this does constitute a use, and a large one, that is not a secular use.
I’d question that assertion, frankly. The Protestants who incorporate bands into their services are in no way building some new kind of guitar/bass/drum music that is unique to worship. What they are doing is incorporating secular music into their services in the name of marketing to youth. A rock song that uses the name “Jesus” in it is still a rock song.As I said earlier, I am aware of this. But this does constitute a use, and a large one, that is not a secular use.
This is not completely correct.But, you cannot divorce musical instruments from the music.
But, we aren’t discussing acoustical instruments. At issue here are the legitimacy of using electric guitars, electric bass guitars and drum kits, things that are commonly used at secular rock concerts.This is not completely correct.
I have led the same hymns on organ in one circumstance and with guitar, strings and oboe in another, where I have not had the option of organ and made a judgement that the music can be made to work that way.
Much bad non-organ music comes from the fact that the players don’t have the necessary versatility of style on their instrument, or the musicianship to know how to produce tasteful arrangements that work.
So you say… but where is the impramateur on this statement? Looks like once again you go from qouthing exact statements and mixing in your conjecture and opinion in the end to force your will on others.But, you cannot divorce musical instruments from the music.
Commonly used? Yes, admittedly. Exclusively used and suitable “ONLY” for secular rock concerts… well, I guess we all know your “opinon” on this, but apparently you cant be satisfied that the Holy Father hasnt as of yet, specified that electric guitars, basses, and drums are in fact, not to be used.But, we aren’t discussing acoustical instruments. At issue here are the legitimacy of using electric guitars, electric bass guitars and drum kits, things that are commonly used at secular rock concerts.
And a ballad is still a ballad. Weather played by a rock band, a pop group, a country group, or a gospel choir…I’d question that assertion, frankly. The Protestants who incorporate bands into their services are in no way building some new kind of guitar/bass/drum music that is unique to worship. What they are doing is incorporating secular music into their services in the name of marketing to youth. A rock song that uses the name “Jesus” in it is still a rock song.
However, Chriso, you are not quite connecting the dots. No matter how hard you try to force the issue, with all due respect, you cannot escape the fact that electric guitars, electric bass guitars and drum kits are commonly associated with secular music. As ibkc noted, what the Protestants are doing is merely switching the words, but, the genre is still the same.Commonly used? Yes, admittedly. Exclusively used and suitable “ONLY” for secular rock concerts… well, I guess we all know your “opinon” on this, but apparently you cant be satisfied that the Holy Father hasnt as of yet, specified that electric guitars, basses, and drums are in fact, not to be used.
I happen to doubt he will either…
And there you go again, changing the words around to suit you. He didnt’ say “primarily” or "commonly’, he says “ONLY”. It sfunny how hung up some folks can get over wanting everyone else to read the exact document that they want to, and the exact sentances and so on, right up until they want to change the one key word to suit their purposes… then lecture on and on about how everyone needs to be obedient and not interpret things for themselves, and so on, when they are the most prolifigate abusers of interpreting and re-inventing things to suit their purposes and opinions.However, the primary use of these instruments is for secular music. Even if these were employed by the Protestants, the genre is under “Christian” rock. You can change the color of the lipstick, but, the person wearing it is still the same.
One minute you dont want anyone to connect the dots themselves, saying we must obey the documents and the documents alone, then you start connecting your own dots… you want it one way for anyone who dissagrees with you, and a different, special way, for your wishes and desires.However, Chriso, you are not quite connecting the dots. No matter how hard you try to force the issue, with all due respect, you cannot escape the fact that electric guitars, electric bass guitars and drum kits are commonly associated with secular music. As ibkc noted, what the Protestants are doing is merely switching the words, but, the genre is still the same.
Again, the Holy Father made some very valid statements about the particular genres that are not compatible with authentic worship as the Church defines it. Electric guitars, electric bass guitars and drum kits do not pass the sound test. As I said, you can only put so many lipshades on a sow, but, she is still a pig, only with a different color of lips.
We have to use our common sense, so long as it agrees with the way you wish it to be, is more aptly put according to what I’m seeing here. The skewing thats taking place is on the part of those who insist on changing the words so they can twist it to mean what they want it to… and who dont have the humility to say they will wait upon Rome (which has indicated that more clarification is forthcoming) to more specifically define how we are supposed to handle things once they make the newly defined standards official. Now thats arrogant if I ever seen it…They use the word “only” but the criteria is by “common opinion and use”…So if we go and poll a music store for instance and see what kind of music the last 100 electric guitars are being used for, or ask 100 or more people what kind of music electric guitars are used for, don’t you think most if not all are going to indicate secular music of some kind? I don’t believe that the odd unusual or out of the ordinary usage of electric guitars in “p&w” music proves anything. The music directors just have to use their common sense and interpret those documents as honestly as they can. It’s certainly not best to look at it all and see what we can “*technically *get away with” if you skew the argument a certain way and fixate on a single word in the document, you know? If this argument were happening anywhere but on this forum, I think people would laugh at us lol. I mean, are electric guitars and drums only commonly used for secular music? Are there really two opposite but equally valid answers to that question, honestly?
I agree wholeheartedly with your second two points, but I believe that there are those who are so tired of the liberal reformists that they are willing to commit the same atrocities to force things back to the way they belive they out to be… spare me the extremists and their offenses, liberal or traditional,I do not like the idea of any musical instrument in the Church besides the organ. Rock bands have no room in a Catholic parish. I am getting tired of these liberal reformists stripping away our sacred traditions.
There was a time when the organ was a novelty and in what you post echoes the same sentiments put forward upon the organs’ arrival. In a few years time (can’t say how many) the instruments now used may be considered traditional.I do not like the idea of any musical instrument in the Church besides the organ. Rock bands have no room in a Catholic parish. I am getting tired of these liberal reformists stripping away our sacred traditions.