SPLIT: Musical instruments at Mass

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However, these instruments were not necessarily used in the cultic sacrificial temple worship of Ancient Israel. They were used outside of the official worship.
True. What justification do we have for the organ?
The Abbot of Rievaux in Yorkshire wrote, “Why, I pray you, this terrible blowing which evokes the noise of thunder rather than the sweetness of the human voice!”
 
True. What justification do we have for the organ?
The Abbot of Rievaux in Yorkshire wrote, “Why, I pray you, this terrible blowing which evokes the noise of thunder rather than the sweetness of the human voice!”
For one thing, it is the only instrument mentioned by name in the authoritative documents of the Church, including Sacrosanctum Concilium, Musicam Sacram and the MP of Pope St. Pius X concerning Sacred Music. The organ has several centuries of use as the proper instrument for sacred music. It holds the pride of place. No other instrument is mentiond specifically by name.
 
True. What justification do we have for the organ?
I just recently posted this excerpt for another thread, which I took from a wonderful, mind-exercising thread started by pnewton. I don’t know how to directly do links, so please forgive me on this. Anyway, Benedict XVI gave the origins/history of the organ in his article and lecture “Church Music, a Spiritual and Intellectual Discipline”. It explains how it became important and held in high esteem during liturgy, which apparently has very early beginnings. Also interesting is how Benedict mentions that the organ has been part of “theo-political history” as explained below as well:
The organ is a theological instrument whose original home was the cult of the emperor. When the Emperor of Byzantium spoke, an organ played. On the other hand **the organ was supposed to be the combination of all the voices of the cosmos. Accordingly, the organ music at imperial utterances meant that when the divine emperor spoke, the entire universe resounded. **As a divine utterance, his statement is the resounding of all the voices in the cosmos. **The “organon” is the cosmic instrument and as such the voice of the world’s ruler, the imperator.18 As against this Byzantine custom, Rome stressed a cosmic Christology and on that basis the cosmis function of Christ’s Vicar on earth: what was good enough for the Emperor was quite good enough for the Pope. **Naturally, it is not a case here of superficial problems concerning prestige, but it is a matter of the public, political and cultic representation of the mandates received in each case. To the exclusivity of an imperial theology which abandoned the Church to the Emperor and degraded the bishops to mere imperial functionaries,19 Rome opposed the Pope’s cosmic claim and with it the cosmic rank of belief in Christ, which is independent of and indeed superior to politics. Therefore the organ had to resound in the papal liturgy as well.
Such a borrowing from imperial theology is not regarded with favour by contemporary theological scholarship, which considers such acceptance as “Constantinian” or as “Romanisation,” which is naturally far worse than Hellenisation. As a matter of fact, what has been said thus far suffices to indicate clearly the convincing reasons for the whole process, as well as its logic within a Christian context: this detour made it possible to avoid turning the Church into a synagogue and to carry out in practise the true claim of the Christian faith, which accepts the inheritance of the Temple and surpasses it by far, into the very dimensions of the Universal.
Furthermore, the history of the organ remained a theo-political history for quite a long time: the fact that an organ resounds at the Carolingian court is an expression of the Carolingian claim to equality with Byzantium. Conversely, the Roman usage was transferred to the cathedrals and abbey churches. Less than a lifetime ago it was still customary for the organ to play as background to the abbot’s recitation of the Pater noster in Benedictine abbeys, and this is to be understood as a direct inheritance from the ancient cosmic liturgy.20
The second part of this quote I found to be an interesting point in Church history as well as church music history - how it wanted to separate itself from Jewish worship, while still acknowledging its connection with its Jewish “inheritance”. In a way, it wiped the slate clean with what was used for formal worship in church liturgy. She became her own “entity” showing its spiritual importance above all things, governments and people - one of the ways to distinguish this was by employing the organ. Other instruments and practices represented the former practice of the Jewish faith. (Although, interestingly, chant has remained, albeit a “Catholic” form of chant, since chant has been around for sacred worship even before Judeo-Christianity.)

Anyway, when reading this article, it was the first time I saw the actual reason of why the organ was held in such high esteem for centuries and it made more sense to me then. Before that, I just accepted the Church’s regard for it, finding no other reasons for it. I thank pnewton for bringing Benedict’s (then Cardinal Ratzinger’s) article/lecture to the forefront. 🙂
 
The people who I see skewing things, honestly, are those who are trying to insist that electric guitars and drums are associated with anything in this culture right now except for secular music. Like I’ve said, I 100% can’t believe that that’s intellectually honest. I have too high an opinion of y’alls intellect (collectively) for that. 😃

If there no specific list of preferred instruments, the interpretive choices seem to be either a.) go with what your own opinion on the matter is based on your own likes and dislikes, and justify it with relativistic “who’s to say what secular is?” arguments **OR **b.) look at the documents, which are *Church *documents, in the context of both Church history and other relevant Church documents. Such as the ones which specify over and over how important and fundamental sacred, timeless music is, and how Gregorian chant is to be given pride of place, etc., etc.

btw I didn’t know that Rome has indicated that more clarification is forthcoming. That’s very good to hear. Do you (or does anyone) happen to know the details of when this is going to happen, or where the announcement was made that more info is forthcoming? TIA
I had that same opinion (originally) of those who so obviously prefer the organ and resent the guitars… however, my original judgement has been challenged by some of these posts where it is clearly apparant that these individuals are intent on having things the way “they” want.

Its actually comical to me. I have no desire to replace the organ, or take anything away from it. But have witnessed at least as many organists who detract from the Mass as I have seen guitarists and drummers.

It will be interesting when the document comes out to see how poorly Rome regards these instruments… if its as bad as you say, they’ll specifically identify them, as some among us here seem intent to do.

If they choose to allow only organ music, until they get a bunch of organists trained up, it looks like we wont be having any music at most of our Masses here in Alaska anyway.

Of course, in some parishes they can afford to hire the Protestant organ players to come and lead our music, so I guess thats a possible solution. :eek:

It’ll also be interesting to see how any of the “died in the wool” guitar haters will be willing to step out and play their organs and lead chant at multiple Masses seeing as how the guitartists wont be able to… After all, its purely “selfless” this desire to strip all the “secular” musicians away from the Mass, right? :rolleyes:
 
Its actually comical to me. I have no desire to replace the organ, or take anything away from it. But have witnessed at least as many organists who detract from the Mass as I have seen guitarists and drummers.
This is very true. Although the organ is supposed to represent the “cosmos” (and it certainly can when played well and on a wonderful organ) it can certainly seem to represent the underworld when played horribly. LOL.
If the choose to allow only organ music, until they get a bunch of organists trained up, it looks like we wont be having any music at most of our Masses here in Alaska anyway.
And this is what the problem is in certain areas of the country from what I’ve seen on the forums and people I have spoken to personally… there aren’t any organists or well-trained organists or organ teachers, for that matter, in some of these areas. And I can understand how people still want music at their liturgies. As a musician, that is major way of prayer for me. The Church will definitely have to set up schools, programs, funds, etc. to begin training young musicians so that at least the next generation will have organ music. And we, as musicians or people who are proponents of sacred music and arts, have to put our money where our mouths are either by working in the Church, teaching or providing money for lessons, etc.
 
I don’t know how to directly do links, so please forgive me on this. Anyway, Benedict XVI gave the origins/history of the organ in his article and lecture “Church Music, a Spiritual and Intellectual Discipline”. It explains how it became important and held in high esteem during liturgy, which apparently has very early beginnings. Also interesting is how Benedict mentions that the organ has been part of “theo-political history” as explained below as well:
Allow me.

musicasacra.com/theological-problems/

I try to read as much as I can on Church teaching of music in liturgy. Most of us here are actually fairly close to the same understanding of this teaching.
 
This is very true. Although the organ is supposed to represent the “cosmos” (and it certainly can when played well and on a wonderful organ) it can certainly seem to represent the underworld when played horribly. LOL.

And this is what the problem is in certain areas of the country from what I’ve seen on the forums and people I have spoken to personally… there aren’t any organists or well-trained organists or organ teachers, for that matter, in some of these areas. And I can understand how people still want music at their liturgies. As a musician, that is major way of prayer for me. The Church will definitely have to set up schools, programs, funds, etc. to begin training young musicians so that at least the next generation will have organ music. And we, as musicians or people who are proponents of sacred music and arts, have to put our money where our mouths are either by working in the Church, teaching or providing money for lessons, etc.
A sensible and accurate post. Once again this year, I am in charge of a classical music competition for youth in our area (49th year of the competition!), and once again, I know of absolutely no organ students in our area, which is a city of 150,000 near Chicago. (The competition covers 10 counties in Northern Illinois.)

If the Church insists on eliminating all other instruments besides pipe organ and all other music besides Gregorian chant and sacred polyphony, there will be three possibilities that I can see.

Ideally, many parishes would attempt to bring themselves into line with Church pronouncement. This would mean devoting time and money to re-educating the parish about music, teaching them chants and other traditional styles, hiring an organist if possible, and planning the Masses to accomodate all the new “old” music.

I personally think that this won’t happen in most parishes. Most of the good musicians I know (and I know many) are liberal politically, and have left the Catholic Church to attend churches that are pro-homosexual marriage and pro-choice.

Another possibility is no music in most Masses in the U.S. IMO, this would result in a “mass” exodus from the Catholic Church to the evangelical churches that offer a rich menu of musical styles (including classical and traditional in many evangelical churches) and congregational singing.

A third possibility is using modern technology to “skype” (or whatever it’s called) into live Masss somewhere in the world (Vatican Square?) that use organ and chant and all the “correct” church music. This way, all the Masses in the U.S. would use exactly the same music, organ, and organist.

This would save a bundle of money for U.S. parishes. I’m guessing that it’s a whole lot cheaper to buy the video equipment and large-screen TVs for a parish sanctuary than to install a pipe organ and bid to hire one of the few hundred (and that number is decreasing) pipe organists in the U.S.

The “skype” or “electronic broadcast” option is already done by many of the evangelical megachurches–the pastor/speaker is skyped in from Willow Creek or one of the other huge megachurches and the people in the auditorium listen to him on a screen. Although much megachurch music is live, there is also transmission of music via electronics.

So the technology is already in place. I believe that Pope Benedict is a supporter of using modern technology in the Church. I actually think this would attract many people to the Mass, including young people who eat, sleep, and breathe “electronic” nowadays. It would seem “normal.”

And it would please all the people who desperately want “good” traditional Catholic music in the Catholic Mass. Instead of listening to “secular” instruments like the piano or guitar, or listening to less-than-competent organists and cantors, we would be able to listen to the finest Catholic music from the most talented Catholic musicians. The Masses broadcast to the U.S. could actually be hand-picked by the Pope and in complete compliance with all the Church documents.

This would also eliminate the need for a parish “music minister” or “liturgical director.” The parish would need to hire an “electronic media specialist,” but that could be a high school kid.

I know that recorded music is not allowed in the Mass. But this wouldn’t be recorded, it would be live, and therefore, I think it might just be acceptable. Basically we would participate in the same Mass that other Catholics are participating in somewhere in the world, but since we can’t all travel to the same building and fit into the same building, it would be done through electronic means.

The timing would have to be studied, and time left in the broadcast for the local priest to give the homily, consecrate the bread and wine, and of course, for the Holy Communion to be received by all the people. But I think that if the Church is serious about bringing the music of the Mass into harmony with Church documents, they can work this out.

Obviously the electronic option is not the best. The best would be live, local musicians and instruments. But as Sarabande points out with such intelligence, it isn’t going to happen in the U.S. if the Church decides to ban “secular instruments” and “CCM.”

I personally don’t believe that the Church will ban “secular” instruments (piano, guitar specifically) and CCM. I think that they will be forced to realize that without these options, many parishes in the U.S. (and probably other countries) will be without music at Mass, and that if this happens, many Catholics will leave the Church for more musical evangelical churches. I think that whatever pronouncements come out of Rome will be broad and general and allow plenty of wiggle-room for music options in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. JMO.
 
Thanks. 👍

:o Do you know how to link one thread to another? I was trying to directly link the thread you had made on this.
Highlight the info in the address bar at the top. Copy using CNTRL-C. Then the link can be pasted directly into a post.
 
If the Church insists on eliminating all other instruments besides pipe organ and all other music besides Gregorian chant and sacred polyphony, there will be three possibilities that I can see.

I personally think that this won’t happen in most parishes. Most of the good musicians I know (and I know many) are liberal politically, and have left the Catholic Church to attend churches that are pro-homosexual marriage and pro-choice.

Another possibility is no music in most Masses in the U.S. IMO, this would result in a “mass” exodus from the Catholic Church to the evangelical churches that offer a rich menu of musical styles (including classical and traditional in many evangelical churches) and congregational singing.

I personally don’t believe that the Church will ban “secular” instruments (piano, guitar specifically) and CCM. I think that they will be forced to realize that without these options, many parishes in the U.S. (and probably other countries) will be without music at Mass, and that if this happens, many Catholics will leave the Church for more musical evangelical churches. I think that whatever pronouncements come out of Rome will be broad and general and allow plenty of wiggle-room for music options in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. JMO.
This is the problem that I was referring to earlier. The education of Children is very important and we all should petition our local Catholic schools to add Catholic music to their curriculum.

The sad thing about this post is that it sums up the problem we have in “The Church” today. “If the music isn’t happenin’ than I’m walking” attitude. The whole concept of the Catholic church is absent from peoples minds. The people who leave are ignorant to what the Mass celebration really is. That their Lord is truly present in the Eucharist and that it is not some party get together among friends to hang around and simply discuss scripture verses. It is quite sad really that they would give up receiving the Lord their God because of the music or the instrument its played on.

The documents do not specifically state a musical instrument because over time secular instruments change. When the electric guitar is not secular any longer it may very well be considered a worthy instrument (who knows). I think that instead of coming out with a direct banning of the guitar or drums Rome needs to strongly communicate its desires to the local Bishops and the change will simply happen (overtime).
 
I personally don’t believe that the Church will ban “secular” instruments (piano, guitar specifically) and CCM. I think that they will be forced to realize that without these options, many parishes in the U.S. (and probably other countries) will be without music at Mass, and that if this happens, many Catholics will leave the Church for more musical evangelical churches. I think that whatever pronouncements come out of Rome will be broad and general and allow plenty of wiggle-room for music options in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. JMO.
I agree with you, although if they do, I will be obedient to Rome, however I will not presume to inflict my views or wishes on them, I will wait upon their word.

And I believe we can all agree Rome wishes for us to utilize Organs and Chant to a greater degree and to ensure their place of honor as the ultimate in Sacred Music, and we should all support that. However, in our situation, we’ll be biting off plenty big of a chunk simply to ensure all parishes get an electric organ and folks to play them at least at some Masses to start with. I doubt Rome and the Hly Father are so insensitive as to fail to consider this type of situation when they lay out their plan forward. I have far too much faith in them to believe otherwise. However, again, I will be faithful to their wishes. But I’m not going to do as some on here seem to wish and throw away my guitars and stop playing music for the Masses I presently do, until that word comes from Rome and our Bishop.
 
I had that same opinion (originally) of those who so obviously prefer the organ and resent the guitars… however, my original judgement has been challenged by some of these posts where it is clearly apparant that these individuals are intent on having things the way “they” want.
Except it’s not what “I” or “they” want; it’s what the Church wants. I’ve just got done reading some of the documents and they really aren’t as vague as this thread would lead one to believe. The Church wants sacred music, with Gregorian chant and the organ given primacy. The Church doesn’t want church music to be centered around secular instruments and arrangements. This isn’t my personal “spin” on the situaiton.
Its actually comical to me. I have no desire to replace the organ, or take anything away from it. But have witnessed at least as many organists who detract from the Mass as I have seen guitarists and drummers.
The Church has an answer to this:
It would be preferable to omit the use of instruments entirely (whether it be the organ only, or any other instrument), than to play them in a manner unbecoming their purpose. As a general rule it is better to do something well, however modest, than to attempt something more elaborate without the proper means.
 
Here’s more from that document I quoted from above, .De musica sacra et sacra liturgia Sacred Congregation for Rites - September 3, 1958
Chapter III-4. Musical instruments and bells.
A. Some General principles.
  1. The following principles for the use of musical instruments in the sacred liturgy are to be recalled:
a) Because of the nature, sanctity, and dignity of the sacred liturgy, the playing of any musical instrument should be as perfect as possible. It would be preferable to omit the use of instruments entirely (whether it be the organ only, or any other instrument), than to play them in a manner unbecoming their purpose. As a general rule it is better to do something well, however modest, than to attempt something more elaborate without the proper means.
b) The difference between sacred, and secular music must be taken into consideration. Some musical instruments, such as the classic organ, are naturally appropriate for sacred music; others, such as string instruments which are played with a bow, are easily adapted to liturgical use. But there are some instruments which, by common estimation, are so associated with secular music that they are not at all adaptable for sacred use.
c) Finally, only instruments which are personally played by a performer are to be used in the sacred liturgy, not those which are played mechanically or automatically.
B. The classic organ and similar instruments.
  1. The principal musical instrument for solemn liturgical ceremonies of the Latin Church has been and remains the classic pipe organ.
  1. An organ destined for liturgical use, even if small, should be designed according to the norms of organ building, and be equipped with the type of pipes suitable for sacred use. Before it is to be used it should be properly blessed, and as a sacred object, receive proper care.
**63. Besides the classic organ, the harmonium or reed organ may also be used provided that its tonal quality, and volume are suitable for sacred use.
  1. As a substitute, the electronic organ may be tolerated temporarily for liturgical functions, if the means for obtaining even a small pipe organ are not available. In each case, however, the explicit permission of the local Ordinary is required. He, on his part, should consult the diocesan commission on sacred music, and others trained in this field, who can make suggestions for rendering such an instrument more suitable for sacred use.**
C. Sacred instrumental music.
  1. Other instruments besides the organ, especially the smaller bowed instruments, may be used during the liturgical functions, particularly on days of greater solemnity. These may be used together with the organ or without it, for instrumental numbers of for accompanying the singing. However, the following rules derived from the principles stated above (no.60) are to strictly observed:
a) the instruments are truly suitable for sacred use;
b) they are to be played with such seriousness, and religious devotion that every suggestion of raucous secular music is avoided, and the devotion of the faithful is fostered;
c) the director, organist, and other instrumentalists should be well trained in instrumental techniques, and the laws of sacred music.
  1. The local Ordinary, with the aid of his diocesan commission on sacred music, should see to it that these rules on the use of instruments during the sacred liturgy are faithfully observed. If need be, they should not hesitate to issue special instructions in this regard as required by local conditions, and approved customs.
D. Musical instruments, and mechanical devices.
  1. Musical instruments which by common acception, and use are suitable only for secular music must be entirely excluded from all liturgical functions, and private devotions.
  1. The use of automatic instruments and machines, such as the automatic organ, phonograph, radio, tape or wire recorders, and other similar machines, is absolutely forbidden in liturgical functions and private devotions, whether they are held inside or outside the church, even if these machines be used only to transmit sermons or sacred music, or to substitute for the singing of the choir or faithful, or even just to support it.
    However, such machines may be used, even inside the church, but not during services of any kind, whether liturgical or private, in order to give the people a chance to listen to the voice of the Supreme Pontiff or the local Ordinary, or the sermons of others. These mechanical devices may be also be used to instruct the faithful in Christian doctrine or in the sacred chant or hymn singing; finally they may be used in processions which take place outside the church, as a means of directing, and supporting the singing of the people.
 
Here’s another one, Annus here hunc by Benedict XIV.

This is a translation from Italian I believe. It’s long, but if you scroll down to point 4 and just skim for a few paragraphs you can get the idea. According to Benedict XIV, *any *instrumnet isn’t ideal compared with the ideal, which is sacred chant- vocals only. The pope here quotes St. Thomas and a few others and grudgingly admits that among musical instruments, *the organ * is acceptable.
 
Here’s another one, Annus here hunc by Benedict XIV.

This is a translation from Italian I believe. It’s long, but if you scroll down to point 4 and just skim for a few paragraphs you can get the idea. According to Benedict XIV, *any *instrumnet isn’t ideal compared with the ideal, which is sacred chant- vocals only. The pope here quotes St. Thomas and a few others and grudgingly admits that among musical instruments, *the organ *is acceptable.
That was in 1749. More recent and more official documents take precedence over a speech 250 years ago. Likewise for instuctins on music in the Tridentine Latin Mass given in 1958. In fact, if you note at the bottom of the first document, it abrogates the second.
 
For one thing, it is the only instrument mentioned by name in the authoritative documents of the Church, including Sacrosanctum Concilium, Musicam Sacram and the MP of Pope St. Pius X concerning Sacred Music. The organ has several centuries of use as the proper instrument for sacred music. It holds the pride of place. No other instrument is mentiond specifically by name.
Your reasoning seems to be woodwind, stringed and percussion instruments should not be used at Holy Mass because they were not used in the high ceremonies of the Jewish Temple worship. Neither was the organ, I don’t think it even ranked a mention.

As a sacred instrument those with strings have more claim than the organ as a stringed instrument was used by David (and following that reasoning we’d have priests dancing in the sanctuary:eek:)
 
That was in 1749. More recent and more official documents take precedence over a speech 250 years ago. Likewise for instuctins on music in the Tridentine Latin Mass given in 1958. In fact, if you note at the bottom of the first document, it abrogates the second.
You’re right about the Annus here hunc, and I understand what you’re saying; after all that document doesn’t want *any *musical instruments in an ideal world. But I still think it’s relevant to show the traditional mind of the Church re: sacred music. Our Church relies on tradition, it’s part of who and what the Church is. Tradition, as opposed to pointless innovation to accomodate trendy, dated personal tastes.

And as far as the instructions on sacred music from 1958 being “old”…Well yeah, they’re from 1958 but they aren’t out of date. The Church itself is old. There are lots and lots of Church documents and rules that we follow today that are “old”…Not to mention the Bible, most everything written by the doctors of the Church and the papal writings about the dogmas.

More to the point, as far as I know, there hasn’t been any other Church documents since then that have *abrogated *what was written in 1958 re: sacred music at Mass. I know there are some more recent documents from VII that add provisions for some kinds of cultural music in native countries; but none of that nullifes anything that was written in the 1958 document. So it’s still relevant.
 
benedictgal;6260594:
For one thing, it is the only instrument mentioned by name in the authoritative documents of the Church, including Sacrosanctum Concilium, Musicam Sacram and the MP of Pope St. Pius X concerning Sacred Music. The organ has several centuries of use as the proper instrument for sacred music. It holds the pride of place. No other instrument is mentiond specifically by name.
Your reasoning seems to be woodwind, stringed and percussion instruments should not be used at Holy Mass because they were not used in the high ceremonies of the Jewish Temple worship. Neither was the organ, I don’t think it even ranked a mention.

As a sacred instrument those with strings have more claim than the organ as a stringed instrument was used by David (and following that reasoning we’d have priests dancing in the sanctuary:eek:)
Her reasoning in the post you quoted has to do with the instruments mentioned in the authoritative documents of the Church. Not the instruments that were used in Jewish Temple worship. That’s a whole 'nother point. 🙂
 
You’re right about the Annus here hunc, and I understand what you’re saying; after all that document doesn’t want *any *musical instruments in an ideal world. But I still think it’s relevant to show the traditional mind of the Church re: sacred music. Our Church relies on tradition, it’s part of who and what the Church is. Tradition, as opposed to pointless innovation to accomodate trendy, dated personal tastes.

And as far as the instructions on sacred music from 1958 being “old”…Well yeah, they’re from 1958 but they aren’t out of date. The Church itself is old. There are lots and lots of Church documents and rules that we follow today that are “old”…Not to mention the Bible, most everything written by the doctors of the Church and the papal writings about the dogmas.

More to the point, as far as I know, there hasn’t been any other Church documents since then that have *abrogated *what was written in 1958 re: sacred music at Mass. I know there are some more recent documents from VII that add provisions for some kinds of cultural music in native countries; but none of that nullifes anything that was written in the 1958 document. So it’s still relevant.
However, the present Pontiff, Benedict XVI, has made a strong argument for the organ, even as Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. He even uses the “older” documents to support his stance.

As I stated before, the documents only list one musical instrument by name, the organ. Whether or not proponents of the electric guitar, electric bass guitar and drum kits want to admit this, the principle association of these instruments is for secular music (rock and pop), not sacred.

While the Holy Father has made a push for using modern technology for communication, he has not made the same argument for the Mass.
 
Is there anything in the Documents regarding the use of electronic/computer generated music?
If composed well it can be tremendously atmospheric.
Wind organ to electric organ to computer: A natural progression?
 
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