SPLIT: Musical instruments at Mass

[benedictgal]

I like how after I wrote 6000+ words you came back with the same subjective opinions. As strong as you state your opinions, they are still that; opinions. You’ve never been to my Church, never heard our music, never even seen our program. You assume much, my friend. And with these assumptions, you are demeaning the hard work myself and others have put into the program, you demean the people who have been touched by the ministry, and you demean those that are affected by our music in the words you describe.

Assuming. And I’m sure you know what assuming does.

Kevin’s point is that the Church accepted those composers as they played a role in the evolution of music in both a religious and secular way. Music will always have influences and evolve, it’s a language. You proved his point be stating that outside Protestant sources and outside influences have been accepted by the Church, including secular composers from a different era. Tell me, do you use any Olivier Messiaen?

With all due respect, it seem hypocritical to me you that preach from those documents, yet for ten years a Methodist was running the show at your other Church. Several of those documents also state that preferably men and boys should be doing the music as well, unless I read the Catholic Encyclopedia wrong.

And you don’t need to continually use “with all due respect”. As, with all due respect, it comes across as patronizing (in my opinion).

I was in college when I first became involved with my former parish. And, the director of music’s influences did not come from his Methodist background. You, as I see it, did not read my post very well. I wrote that:

organist in question had a greater sense of what is genuine Sacred Music than some of what I have encountered today. The music was always Tradtional. He incorporated chant. He incorporated Latin. He wrote Mass settings that were faithful to the text, which is more than I can say for Bob Hurd and the OCP bunch. For a Protestant, he actually knew more about Sacred Music than most Catholic musicians I know who have drunk too much of the OCP punch. He promoted genuine Sacred music, even with the school’s choir. He never brought in any of his Methodist influences into the Church. What he selected and played was consistent with what the documents of the Church stated. I know because I sat on the parish liturgy committee and he always made a great effort to be consistent with what the Church documents said. He did not engage in any creativity nor did he do strange things. It was always by-the-book.

Never did he draw from what his ecclesial community was doing. He made every effort to follow what the Church required, moreso than most of the Catholic musicians that I have encountered in person and online. Whatever influence he had on the music was not drawn from the Methodist ecclesial community, but, from the documents of the Church. For the Holy Thursday procession, it was always Pange Lingua in English and Latin. For the Washing of the Feet it was Ubi Caritas. For Palm Sunday, it was always All Glory, Laud and Honor. During Lent the organ was muted. Attende Domine was chanted in English; Parce Domine was also used. Clearly, you will not find this in the Methodist ecclesial community.

I was very young when I sat on the liturgy committee and I was just starting to learn the documents. In hindsight, I can say with complete honesty, that he was probably the best musical director that I ever encountered. Inasmuch as he was not Catholic, he still had a greater sense of the Church’s intent on music than those of my fellow Catholics who are currently involved in some sort of music ministry.

While you rightly claim that I have not been to your Church, if you are following the LifeTeen manual and playing drums, it’s pretty much the same thing that is happening every place else. Whether you choose to believe this or not, the PW genre, using drums, electric guitars and electric bass, is pretty much pop/soft rock with religious undertones. While this would certainly work with LifeNight, it is not compatible with the sacred essence of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

I am not trying to patronize you when I say with all due respect. You have your point. I have mine. My challenge though is this: Inasmuch as you expressed a willingness to expose the teens to Sacred Music, why not do so during the Mass as opposed to during the meeting? Let your charges be exposed to something other than the same-old, same-old. Sacred music should not be relegated to a concert hall. It’s proper place is within the context of the Mass. Lent is actually the ideal time to do this. As you well know, the instruments need to be kept at a minimum. In your case, this would include the drums. The organ should be played only enough to sustain the singing. That is the nature of the season of Lent.

 

[benedictgal]

The Holy Father made a speech regarding a Mozart concert that was performed for him and he somehow tied it to Sacred Music. However, the actual text is found only in German. However, I did manage to find an early speech from December 2005 where he talked about the beauty of Sacred Music. This was a speech he made to the members of the Sistene Chapel Choir, many of whom are boys and teenagers, the same ages as the LifeTeen participants:

Tradition has always claimed that the Angels did not simply speak like people but sang, and that their song was of such heavenly beauty that it revealed the beauty of Heaven.

Tradition also claims that choirs of treble voices can enable us to hear an echo of the angels’ singing. And **it is true that in the singing of the Sistine Chapel Choir at the important liturgies we can sense the presence of the heavenly liturgy, we can feel a little of the beauty through which the Lord wants to communicate his joy to us. **

In fact, praise of God demands song. Therefore, throughout the Old Testament - with Moses and with David - until the New Testament - in the Book of Revelation - we hear once again the hymns of the heavenly liturgy that offer a lesson for our liturgy in God’s Church.

Consequently, your contribution is essential to the liturgy: it is not a marginal embellishment, for the liturgy as such demands this beauty, it needs song to praise God and to give joy to those taking part.

I wish to thank you with all my heart for this major contribution. The Pope’s liturgy, the liturgy in St Peter’s, must be an example of liturgy for the world. You know that today, with television and radio, a vast number of people in every part of the world follow this liturgy. From here, they learn or do not learn what the liturgy is, how the liturgy should be celebrated. Thus, it is very important not only that our masters of ceremony teach the Pope how best to celebrate the liturgy, but also **that the Sistine Choir be an example of how to convey beauty in song, in praise of God. **

I know - since my brother has as it were enabled me to have a first-hand experience of a choir of treble voices - that this beauty demands a huge commitment and many sacrifices on your part. You have to rise early, boys, in order to get to school; I know Rome’s traffic and I can therefore guess how difficult it often is for you to arrive on time. Then, you have to practice to the very end in order to achieve this perfection with the competence that we have just heard once again.

This is not to say that every youth choir should sound exactly like the Sistene Chapel choir. There are some detractors in these threads who complain about their singing. However, if one were to actually view a Papal Mass, either in person or via TV or the internet, one would certainly be exposed to something beautiful, something truly sacred.

As it is now getting late, I will save my research until later on today.

 

[benedictgal]

Why do you think I have a personal vendetta to try and disprove you?
Pope Benedict XV1 may be a huge admirer of Mozart, this does not disprove Mozart had other influences from outside the Catholic Church.
Gregorian Chant was not restricted only to the addition of words to old melodies or to the creation of new ones, but also found an outlet in the simultaneous combination of both old and new melodies.

“You have my permission to admit other skilled musicians as assistants if you so desire” (Pope Gregory X111, Brief on the Reform of the Chant, October 25, 1577)

This is what Pope Benedict XVI said back in April 2006 following a concert given to him by the City of Rome to mark his first anniversary as Pope:

Thank you too for selecting a musical programme taken from the works of Mozart, a great composer who left an indelible mark on history. This year is the 250th anniversary of his birth, and various initiatives have accordingly been planned throughout 2006, which has also rightly been named the “Mozartian year”.

The compositions performed by the orchestra and choir of the National Academy of St Cecilia are marvellous passages by Mozart which are very famous, including some of remarkable religious inspiration. The Ave Verum, for example, which is often sung at liturgical celebrations, is a motet with deeply theological words and a musical accompaniment that moves the heart and invites us to prayer.

Thus, by raising the soul to contemplation, music also helps us grasp the most intimate nuances of human genius, in which is reflected something of the incomparable beauty of the Creator of the universe.

He does not state that Mozart had Protestant influences. Furthermore, the quote that you posted at the end of your response did not factor in electric guitars, electric bass guitars and drum kits. Again, what you are not seeing, as I read your responses, is the fact that Musicam Sacram makes it very clear that those instruments that are primarily used for secular music are not to be admitted for employment in the Liturgy.

 

[agapewolf]

For at least the 3rd time, my practice is not up for debate in this partciular thread. I AM NOT GOING TO DISCUSS THIS PART.

I AM however, insisting you withdrawal your “nowhere in the liturgy guide is there traditional music suggested”. when I clearly cited sources that proved this accusation false.

Yes, WHERE , yes, it is there. Its not “nowhere”…that is an absolute statement that is blatantly false.

If you cannot admit this, than there is no point of even having any kind of discussion with you at all. No deflection as you are doing by trying to change the subject.

It’s a simple fact. Its there, you said its “nowhere”.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

This is what Pope Benedict XVI said back in April 2006 following a concert given to him by the City of Rome to mark his first anniversary as Pope:
He does not state that Mozart had Protestant influences. Furthermore, the quote that you posted at the end of your response did not factor in electric guitars, electric bass guitars and drum kits. Again, what you are not seeing, as I read your responses, is the fact that Musicam Sacram makes it very clear that those instruments that are primarily used for secular music are not to be admitted for employment in the Liturgy.

Your point being? This does not detract from Mozart being a Mason. His Church music is completely theatrical, except for a few archaic pieces of baroque counterpoint. His Requiem is profoundly Masonic.

Voices and stringed instruments are capable of flexible intonation, but keyboard instruments are not, and up to c.1500 organs must have sounded vilely out of tune sometimes, or else some of the notes must have been slightly and inoffensively mistuned.

In our romanticism are we going back to a Golden Age that never existed?

Many of the early Church Fathers objected strongly to instrumental participation in the Liturgy because of the close association with pagan entertainments. Instruments such as the kithara, and trumpet were mentioned. The organ originated outside the Church. One theorist refers to its “popular” nature.

 

[Melchior_1]

I read your post fine, you seem to have neglected to read mine when I quoted “To employ non-Catholics in church as singers and organists is only tolerated in case of urgent necessity, because they neither believe nor feel the words which they sing”. It doesn’t matter where he drew his inspiration, he wasn’t Catholic. He was not in full communion with Rome. You can’t have it both ways BG. You can’t be quoting all of these documents and not respond to this one.

Kevin is bringing up some very valid points from a historical perspective. Here are some more examples of “secular” and outside influences being brought into the Church;

*"The Protestant custom of singing hymns in the vernacular instead of the liturgical chant reacted upon Catholics, and found its way even into the missa cantata. *

Hymns in the vernacular were widely employed (e.g., by the early apostles of Germany) to wean the people from the pagan songs to which they were accustomed, and to initiate them in an agreeable manner into the mysteries of the Faith.

*“It is very much to be regretted that the greatest masters of modern times, Mozart, Joseph Haydn, and Beethoven, devoted their wonderful gifts mainly to secular uses, and that their masses are entirely unsuitable for liturgical purposes — an unsuitability freely acknowledged by Mendelssohn, Liszt, and Wagner.”
*
The development of congregational singing is of early origin. St. Augustine tells us (Confessions VII.9) that St. Ambrose introduced it in his own diocese from the Orient, and that it soon spread throughout the Western Church. Ambrose modified the still classic Latin metre to meet the popular requirements, while Augustine abandoned it altogether, to get, as he said, nearer to the people. *

And not related to outside influences but I’ll post it anyway; Consequently, the presence of women in choirs is excusable under certain circumstances, although choirs composed of men and boys are for many reasons preferable. Does this mean once some men and boys step up to the plate, you won’t be involved in the Music with your parish anymore? That is a sincere question; not a strawman comment, I want to know this because I want to see if you’ll choose to not follow the document’s preference.

“Whether you choose to believe this or not, the PW genre, using drums, electric guitars and electric bass, is pretty much pop/soft rock with religious undertones”

Whether you choose to believe it or not, the “PW” genre can have the same impact as your “genuine” Sacred Music. Speaking of which, define “genuine” for me please. And spare us the subjective opinions and adjectives.

You say I have the willingness, and I am glad you acknowledge that. You continue to challenge us, and that can be a good thing. But the youth at my parish will be exposed to everything the Church has to offer. It seems your will only be exposed to one thing, which is sad. You’re not doing them a service by only exposing your parish to one thing, you know.

You have yet to respond to my question about Olivier Messiaen.

I’ll type more later, I need to head to class.*

 

[pnewton]

This thread is highly contentious

You think? It was rather obvious when it was started this was going to be a firecracker.

That is why, I really, really, really think the best course is subsidiarity and resign ourselves to the fact that no one will be swayed in an area where emotions reign so heavily. Again I will say,* READ THE DOCUMENTS*. Learn the mind of the Church. If this thread promotes an increase of this one practice, then it would have been well worth it. Also, even though we may never come to common understanding, we will all be brought closer together on this, as we each individually draw closer to the will of the Church.

This is a lesson I learned here, from benedictgal nonetheless, years ago.

May God bless us all and guide us all as we strive to serve God to the best of our abilities.

 

[Sarabande]

That is why, I really, really, really think the best course is subsidiarity and resign ourselves to the fact that no one will be swayed in an area where emotions reign so heavily. Again I will say,* READ THE DOCUMENTS*. Learn the mind of the Church. If this thread promotes an increase of this one practice, then it would have been well worth it. Also, even though we may never come to common understanding, we will all be brought closer together on this, as we each individually draw closer to the will of the Church.

So true, pnewton. I think studying the documents as well as the history of sacred music within liturgy will help anyone understand the mind of the Church more completely as long as we do so with an open mind to allow ourselves to change if required. If anything, these discussions/arguments/debates help us think more about what and why we believe something, giving us a deeper understanding or allowing us to modify or change our view after more reading and study.

And God bless you, pnewton!!!

 

[benedictgal]

genuine

" for me please. And spare us the subjective opinions and adjectives.

You say I have the willingness, and I am glad you acknowledge that. You continue to challenge us, and that can be a good thing. But the youth at my parish will be exposed to everything the Church has to offer. It seems your will only be exposed to one thing, which is sad. You’re not doing them a service by only exposing your parish to one thing, you know.

I’ll type more later, I need to head to class.

However, what you fail to realize is precisely what Pope Benedict XVI, Pope John Paul II, Pope Paul VI, Pope Pius XII and Pope St. Pius X have stated all along: not every genre is suitable for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Praise and Worship music is not Sacred Music. There is a huge difference between religious music and Sacred Music. It is suitable for non-liturgical gatherings because, by its vey nature, it is not compatible with what is called for in the Liturgy. The use of drum kits, electric guitars and electric bass guitars are primarily for secular music, not for Sacred Music.

Exposing the teenagers only to this particular genre and using it Sunday after Sunday is not a good thing. Regardless of whether or not these songs are included in the LifeTeen Manual, it is not LifeTeen that governs the Liturgy, the Church does. LifeTeen is not the Church. It is a part of the Church, but, it is not the Church. Inasmuch as you have stated that their manuals urge adherence to the GIRM, the GIRM is not the only regulatory document overseeing the Liturgy.

 

[benedictgal]

For at least the 3rd time, my practice is not up for debate in this partciular thread. I AM NOT GOING TO DISCUSS THIS PART.

I AM however, insisting you withdrawal your “nowhere in the liturgy guide is there traditional music suggested”. when I clearly cited sources that proved this accusation false.

Yes, WHERE , yes, it is there. Its not “nowhere”…that is an absolute statement that is blatantly false.

If you cannot admit this, than there is no point of even having any kind of discussion with you at all. No deflection as you are doing by trying to change the subject.

It’s a simple fact. Its there, you said its “nowhere”.

Four references does not necessarily mean that such music is done every time. I asked you a valid question. What are you doing? It is a fair question. With all due respect, the tone of your replies is negative. This isnot contributing at all to the discussion at hand. If I were a parent at your parish, I believe that the question I am posing would be justified. What exactly are you exposing my child to? Are you teaching my child the genuine Sacred Music of the Church or are you simply using whatever the planning guide says you need to use?

 

[agapewolf]

Four references does not necessarily mean that such music is done every time. I asked you a valid question. What are you doing? It is a fair question. With all due respect, the tone of your replies is negative. This isnot contributing at all to the discussion at hand. If I were a parent at your parish, I believe that the question I am posing would be justified. What exactly are you exposing my child to? Are you teaching my child the genuine Sacred Music of the Church or are you simply using whatever the planning guide says you need to use?

You are not a parent at my parish, I don’t answer to you, and I’ve already stated now about 5 times that My practice is not up for discussion here. DROP IT.

I posted against your absolute statement that nowhere was the suggestions to be found. I proved you wrong. That is all.

My tone is negative because you’re continual insistence at not acknowledging the facts and the insulting manner you approach discussions instigates it. Drop it. Please.