SPLIT: My church uses grape juice--am I bad for receiving it?

[rev_kevin]

Scripture shows that only the Apostles are entrusted with the care of the Gospel message. Scripture also shows that only the Apostles refer to the Gospel message as their own personal possession. The Apostles possess the Gospel message precisely because it was “entrusted” to them, i.e., given to them, and not taken by them on their own initiative (which is what happened nearly 500 years ago).

Books, chapter and verses where Jesus said this.

 

[Erich]

Christ founded one church and he is the church. This church lives all of his believers, all who believe he is the savior.

I want to be sure I understand what you’re saying… basically, the Church Christ founded is invisible, made up of all those who believe He is the Savior, no matter what church or ecclesial community they may belong to – and that this is OK because He knows who is a “true believer” and who isn’t?

 

[Erich]

Books, chapter and verses where Jesus said this.

From By What Authority? (which I would ask you to read in its entirety):

The dictionary defines the word [apostle] to mean, an “authorized messenger or representative” - thus, an ambassador must be sent. In fact, the word “apostle” is Greek for “sent one.” To this we can add the words of St. Paul, who says that preachers must be “sent.” (Rom. 10:15) Now, what does “to be sent” mean, except that someone in authority over you has conferred the privilege and authority upon you? In fact, it goes without saying that the one who confers the authority must be superior in authority to the one being commissioned, since no one can confer that which he does not possess himself.
…
What is the Scriptural pattern for such things? This we can ascertain by observing the mission of Our Lord, Jesus Christ. It is a pattern of Divine Succession:
God the Father (the superior authority) sends Jesus Christ “…these very works which I am doing, bear me witness that the Father has sent me.” (John 5:36)
Jesus, in turn, sends the Apostles “…As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” (John 20:21)
Jesus sends these Apostles “as the Father has sent me,” that is, in the same manner, with the same authority: “all authority.”
“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.” (Matt. 28:18)
The Apostles, then, did not take their office and authority upon themselves, but were appointed by a Superior Authority, Jesus Christ. The Scriptures attest to the unique authoritative status of the Apostles in several ways, which we will examine now.
Scripture shows that only the Apostles are “entrusted” with the care of the Gospel message:
• St. Paul “…they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised.”(Gal. 2:7)
“…in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.” (2 Cor. 5:19)
“…in accordance with the glorious gospel of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.” (1 Tim. 1:11)
• St. Timothy
“Paul, Silvanus [Silas], and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians… we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel.” (1 Thess. 1:1, 2:4)
“O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you.” (1 Tim. 6:20)
“…guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us.” (2 Tim. 1:14)
You may object at this point that St. Timothy was not an apostle. I will concede that he was not an “Apostle,” with a capital “A,” but you must concede that Scripture clearly calls St. Timothy an apostle, thereby attesting to his apostolic authority:
“Paul, Silvanus [Silas], and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians… nor did we seek glory from men, whether from you or from others, though we might have made demands as apostles of Christ.” (1 Thess. 1:1, 2:6)
It is not only St. Timothy who is called an apostle by Sacred Scripture, but also St. Barnabus, Apollos, and St. Titus:
St. Barnabus - “But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their garments and rushed out among the multitude…” (Acts 14:14)
Apollos - “I planted, Apollos watered… He who plants and he who waters are equal.” (1 Cor. 3:6, 8)
“I have applied all this to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brethren… For I think that God has exhibited us apostles as last of all, like men sentenced to death.” (1 Cor. 4:6,9)
The objection will be raised: Titus is nowhere in Scripture explicitly called an apostle. I reply, it is implicit in what kind of authority is accorded to the apostles. Scripture testifies that only apostles are given full authority. Compare what is said of St. Paul and St. Timothy (both of whom are called “apostles”) with what is said of St. Titus:
St. Paul - “…nor did we seek glory from men, whether from you or from others, though we might have made demands as apostles of Christ.” (1 Thess. 2:6)
St. Timothy - “As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine…” (1 Tim. 1:3)
“Command and teach these things.” (1 Tim. 4:11)
“Remind them of this, and charge them before the Lord to avoid disputing about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers.” (2 Tim. 2:14)
St. Titus - “This is why I left you in Crete, that you might amend what was defective, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you.” (Tit.1:5)
“Declare these things; exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.” (Tit. 2:15)
“…our boasting before Titus has proved true. And his heart goes out all the more to you, as he remembers the obedience of you all, and the fear and trembling with which you received him.” (2 Cor. 7:14-15)

 

[Erich]

Cont’d

Scripture also shows that only the Apostles refer to the Gospel message as their own personal possession:
“…when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.” (Rom. 2:16)
“Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ…” (Rom. 16:25)
“Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descended from David, as preached in my gospel.” (2 Tim. 2:8)
“Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians… for our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction.” (1 Thess. 1:1 & 5)
“Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians… God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel…” (2 Thess. 1:1 & 2:13-14)
The Apostles possess the Gospel message precisely because it was (as the above passages demonstrated) “entrusted” to them, i.e., given to them, and not taken by them on their own initiative. This is completely in keeping with the restriction imposed by Heb. 5:4.

 

[latin_rite]

 so if thats what you want then find someone else because God didn't only give the CC to spread his good news, to spread his word, he gave it to others as well, he just gave it to us a little later on. Could be because he is not pleased with the way things have been done.

Did he give it to you, or did you take it? If recall correctly. He gave it Peter, Not martin Luther etc. And Paul wasn’t a protestant. The only Church God gave anything to is the Catholic Church. Maybe he only gave it to the Church, He knew baptists etc would never be capable of handling the word. Which, unsurprisingly. God was right. Because as soon as Protestants got hold of his word. They started to chop and change it.

 

[wisdomseeker]

From By What Authority? (which I would ask you to read in its entirety):

and lets not forget that this was done by real and visible man. lets also remember that those visible man also chose another to be replace judas. there was no self made preacher. never did and never will be. also lets remember that to be teachers of the Faith one must be visible.

 

[conorsdad]

This is a part of the Catholic faith that I have a major problem with…the wine. So are you saying that a recovering alcoholic should drink wine? Why would the Church want to tempt someone in that way? Also, the giving of wine to young children at first communion bothers me as well…luckily last year when my son received, it was during the H1N1 scare, so the wine was scrapped.

The Church seems a little too tolerant of alcohol…and gambling, with the beer tents and gambling that go on at the church festivals.

 

[JHow]

This is a part of the Catholic faith that I have a major problem with…the wine. So are you saying that a recovering alcoholic should drink wine? Why would the Church want to tempt someone in that way? Also, the giving of wine to young children at first communion bothers me as well…luckily last year when my son received, it was during the H1N1 scare, so the wine was scrapped.

The Church seems a little too tolerant of alcohol…and gambling, with the beer tents and gambling that go on at the church festivals.

You’ll get more alcohol in a spoonful of cough syrup than taste you receive in communion.

 

[rainman10]

Christ founded one church and he is the church. This church lives all of his believers, all who believe he is the savior.

Book, chapter and verse where this is found.

 

[Steven_John]

This is a part of the Catholic faith that I have a major problem with…the wine. So are you saying that a recovering alcoholic should drink wine? Why would the Church want to tempt someone in that way? Also, the giving of wine to young children at first communion bothers me as well…luckily last year when my son received, it was during the H1N1 scare, so the wine was scrapped.

The Church seems a little too tolerant of alcohol…and gambling, with the beer tents and gambling that go on at the church festivals.

Catholics do not drink wine at communion, they do ask for wine to be transformed so it is no longer wine and no longer a problem.

I do agree with your last line we have a Catholic social justice org where i am that is big on gambling councilling and used to own a race horse LOL

 

[pismopal]

Grape juice or wine…outside the Church of believers in the Real Presence…there is not much difference. I make that observation from a convert’s point of view…your mileage may vary.

 

[Steven_John]

May G-d bless the pious intentions of all.

 

[Steven_John]

Amen

 

[pismopal]

With respect…I am a convert because I believe I receive Holy Communion here and nowhere else. If I am wrong…and I don’t for a second think I am…I still made the right decision.

 

[Janet1983]

This is a part of the Catholic faith that I have a major problem with…the wine. So are you saying that a recovering alcoholic should drink wine? Why would the Church want to tempt someone in that way?

It actually isn’t a problem. Catholic Eucharistic theology holds that since Jesus Christ is risen the body and blood cannot be separated. Receiving the Eucharist in the form of the host is therefore receiving the whole body of Christ, even though the priest usually says “The body of Christ”, when administering the host, and, “The blood of Christ”, when presenting the chalice. Where I come from (Germany) the Eucharist is commonly received under only one species (the host) and rarely ever will you find both kinds being distributed to the faithful. Receiving only under one kind therefore is not a problem at all.

In the end however it’s up to the recovering alcoholic what to do. I’ve heard of some who do not have a problem taking a (very small) sip, considering that this is not really a drink in the common sense and that it is also mixed with water.

I don’t think that this is something we could or should pin on the Catholic Church.

 

[Steven_John]

I don’t think that this is something we could or should pin on the Catholic Church.

Amen, my understanding of Catholics is it is no longer wine by the time it is received. Maybe if one does not hold that faith they should not partake in communion in that way.

For me it soooooooooo simple, i pray it be for all.

 

[CMatt25]

Myself I like the wine. I could not imagine anything else.

Myself I don’t particularly care for the taste of wine following the fermentation process so I usually don’t take the cup. But I’m pretty certain if He turned water into wine He could change unfemented wine into blood skipping the the whole fermentation process.

 

[agent_grey]

I believe that Christ used grape Juice for the last supper. To put it plain and simple grape juice was wine.

I have always wondered what Jesus would use if he was instituting communion today.

I will tell you what I always say. If the bread and wine do not become the blood of Christ than you commit a mortal sin. If you continue to recieve you will be condemned.

How to know???.. when you put forth your hand and take and eat and drink also your eyes will be opened and you will know Christ. If you do not experience this ground moving occurance do not go back.

 

[Steven_John]

I believe that Christ used grape Juice for the last supper. To put it plain and simple grape juice was wine.

I think thats very close to true, best i know they used no process to stop fermentation of the natural yeast from the outside of the grape. Grape juice today however has zero fermentation new wine vs old wine. So there is a difference between wine and grape juice for us.

I have always wondered what Jesus would use if he was instituting communion today.

I dont i feel sure he would celebrate Passover and use wine.

I will tell you what I always say. If the bread and wine do not become the blood of Christ than you commit a mortal sin. If you continue to recieve you will be condemned.

I really understand what you are saying but G-d inspires me to be generous and patient with people. If you are seeking it to be but dont yet fully understand then i would not be so hard. No disrespect to Church teaching, she wants what is best for us.

How to know???.. when you put forth your hand and take and eat and drink also your eyes will be opened and you will know Christ.

Amen

If you do not experience this ground moving occurance do not go back.

Dont any one listen to this, if you dont see pray about it and whaen the spirit inspires you please go back My G-d never ever wants to reject you forever, I pray you see My G-d is your G-d, He is most patient and will help you if just ask. You just need to be patient even if it seems to be taking long. We are ensured that if we seek with open willing hearts he will give to you of His will.

“I will be what I will be”, you have free will so choose who you see

 

[guanophore]

Christ founded one church and he is the church. This church lives all of his believers, all who believe he is the savior.

This is a nice idea, and popular among Modern American Evangelicals, but it is not consistent with the Apostolic Teaching of what is “Church”.

The Apostles taught that baptism is the initiation into the Body.

They also taught that “Church” is the body of believers in unity with themselves, and the bishops appointed by them. The Church Jesus founded has One Faith, One Baptism. It is a visible church with authority and apostolic succession. It includes those who have gone on in the faith before us.

These Apostolic elements of what is “church” are missing from such modern innovations as you offer here. They distinguish why the definition you give is deficient.