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Erich
Guest
This article does a good job of explaining why Jesus used wine and not grape juice.
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rinnie
Guest
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rinnie
Guest
No I am sorry but I have to disagree with this. Grape juice was not wine, because if it was, why isn’t wine the same as grape juice then?
I don’t think you have to wonder what Jesus would use if he was instituting communion today, All you have to do is walk into a Catholic Church and you will have you answer.
He took the Bread and Said take this, this is my body which will be given up for you, Then he took the wine, and he said take this, this is my blood that will be shed for you. Do this in memory of me.
By the way, just curious, you seem to accept and have great knowledge of what true communion with CHrist is. Who do you think is changing the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ? The Priest???
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pismopal
Guest
There seems to be a little confusion here about the wine/grape juice issue. “Grape juice” was not available to the ancients or for that matter for modern man until a person by the name of Welch invented a process to prevent grape juice form turning alcoholic. This was not until the 20th century. Grape juice was preserved as wine and it is not difficult to understand why it took so long for someone to be motivated to offer a substitute…little joke there.
The modern temperance movement and some others have concocted the story that the references to “wine” in the Bible were actually grape juice. Thankfully folks…grape juice is wine…for your enjoyment…or not, as the case may be.
The modern temperance movement and some others have concocted the story that the references to “wine” in the Bible were actually grape juice. Thankfully folks…grape juice is wine…for your enjoyment…or not, as the case may be.
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vsedriver
Guest
grape juice and wine are not the same thing. One is fermented the other is not. They are not the same. You don’t have to be 21 to buy grape juice.
What is the great fear of using wine at Communion? Besides anyone who knows Jewish tradition or basic history knows that Jesus used ‘fermented grape juice’ aka wine at the Last Supper.
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rinnie
Guest
Same today as yesterday. It is still the best wine for his guests.
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rinnie
Guest
Also I can drink grape juice and still drive
Then again the truth be known Wine is actually better for you then Grape Juice.
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Janet1983
Guest
I’m not so sure about that anymore. I just found an interesting page (actually it seems to be a chapter out of a book) online and I am reading through it… So far it is a very interesting read.There seems to be a little confusion here about the wine/grape juice issue. “Grape juice” was not available to the ancients or for that matter for modern man until a person by the name of Welch invented a process to prevent grape juice form turning alcoholic. This was not until the 20th century. Grape juice was preserved as wine and it is not difficult to understand why it took so long for someone to be motivated to offer a substitute…little joke there.
The modern temperance movement and some others have concocted the story that the references to “wine” in the Bible were actually grape juice. Thankfully folks…grape juice is wine…for your enjoyment…or not, as the case may be.
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pismopal
Guest
Well…the U.S. Patent office seemed to be impressed at the time and that is good enough for me.
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Janet1983
Guest
Well as far as I can see (and I had to stop reading and do something in the kitchen so that I am not through the text yet), there actually were methods of preservation of fruit and of juice in antiquity. It also looks like the preservation of fermented wine was a lot more difficult if you didn’t want to end up having vinegar or mold… Food preservation in antiquity… maybe I can learn something here for practical purposes.Well…the U.S. Patent office seemed to be impressed at the time and that is good enough for me.
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rinnie
Guest
Well the Church is One.because of her source. The best example would be the mystery of the Trinity. The Trinity of Person of ONE God the Father, the Son, and the HS.
The church is ONE because of her founder for the Word made flesh, the prince of peace, reconciled all men to God by the Cross.
The Church is one because of her soul, The Holy Spirit dwelling in those who believe.
This is all in 811 if the CCC.
And as much as I disagree with alot of what REV KEV says I agree with him that ALL men are called to the Catholic unity of the People of God.
And in 843 of the CCC we are taught that the CC recognizes in other religions that search among shadows andi mages for the God who is unknown but yet near since he gives life and breath to all things and want all men to be saved.
The Church has a bond with Christians and also non-Christians. If you want to read it better you can find this in 839-845
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Mikeoffaith
Guest
What about must? Doesn’t Rome allow the use of must when permitted by the local Ordinary. And basically, must is grape juice, non pasteurized but grape juice none the less.
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rinnie
Guest
Grape juice is not wine nor permitted in the RCC only wine.
For those who claim they are the same please read 1 Sam 14, How can you sober up from grape juice. ANd how could Eli think Hannah was drunk from drinking WINE?
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pismopal
Guest
Some…most… non Catholic denoms make grape juice out of references to wine in the Bible for their own purposes. Just like everything else they don’t approve of in scripture…they put their own spin on it. Human nature trumps a search for truth and authenticity.
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Mikeoffaith
Guest
I found this on an old posting here in this forum.
Composition of Mustum
On June 19, 1995, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, addressed a circular letter to Presidents of Episcopal Conferences containing revised procedures for permitting the use of mustum to priests affected by alcoholism (Prot. N. 89/78). In recent months the Secretariat has received inquiries from several dioceses whose Ordinaries have granted permission for the use of mustum to priests adversely affected by even a small amount of alcohol. The correspondents have sought a more precise definition of mustum.
Article II-C of Cardinal Ratzinger’s letter describes mustum as “fresh grape juice from grapes, or juice preserved by suspending its fermentation (by means of freezing or other methods which do not alter its nature).” While several brands of grape juice are available commercially, not all varieties meet the requirements of mustum.
Any commercially produced grape juice whose fermentation process was arrested, even at a very early stage, may be used for mustum. However, those grape juices which have been pasteurized are not proper matter for Eucharist because such pasteurization removes even trace amount of alcohol produced in the natural fermentation process.
The insistence on the purity and integrity of the grape juice used as mustum is to assure that the matter used for the Eucharist retains, as closely as possible, the characteristics of the matter intended by Christ to become his own Precious Blood.
Source: Committee on the Liturgy USCCB
Click here.
Norms for use of Low-Gluten Bread and “Mustum”
By Cardinal Ratzinger
Click here.
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cooterhein
Guest
It is your church, so you’re in an ideal position to ask someone about it. Someone like a Presbyterian. At your church. Who has a leadership role that is relevant to the way in which Communion is done.
My guess, however, is that it has to do with symbolism. They probably try and make sure they use something that is:
A) Pure
B) Grape juice
C) From red grapes
because the aspects of such a liquid have symbolic relevance to the ordinance for which they are being used.
Alcohol has no symbolic relevance. That’s why it’s optional*. And they choose to exercise the “unfermented” option because they’d rather not use alcohol, probably for a variety of reasons. Off the top of my head…
- Children/minors partake, and while the church would be able to bend the law about serving alcohol to minors if your religion absolutely requires it of you, no such requirement exists for Presbyterians. So along with moral issues related to children, there’s the legal issue.
- Additionally, there’s the alcoholics, and it’s not really possible to be an ex-alcoholic. Once you become one, you’re an alcoholic for life. It’s just a matter of whether you’re a “wet” or “dry” alcoholic. At a Presbyterian church, dry alcoholics can show up and not have to worry about how they’ll respond to ingesting a small amount of alcohol, and at the same time, they can have what everyone else is having.
- And then there’s probably some people at your church who’ve committed themselves to never ingesting alcohol (except for the trace amounts found in all major soft drinks, among other beverages). As far as any of these issues/people are concerned, it all comes back to one thing: If they don’t have to ingest alcohol, they’d rather not. These are some of the reasons people have for preferring not to.
Of course.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
I dont think we have to depend on these studies of today to know that they used wine. just read what St Paul says to the people about getting drunk. how St Paul recomend people to drink wine. drunkness is talked about in the Bible many times.
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Janet1983
Guest
These studies (that are quoting 1st century literature by the way) just show that it wasn’t impossible to have grape juice.
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rinnie
Guest
But the fact still remains that grape juice is not Wine, and Wine was used by Jesus. And as you quoted here the Pope made this as an extraordinary condition. He has the right to do this in special instances. But I did not see where it is used for us at Church. I am not saying that it has never happened or that it cannot happen, only that I have never saw it.
ANd as you described above only certain exceptions are permitted.
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Steven_John
Guest
From my experience and sharing with Jewish people wine for pass over is very important as i understand from them wine is a symbol of freedom and thus is important we remember what we are delivered from and into.
I respect that we are all at different places on the faith journey but personally (no disrespect to you) find it very hard to see why so many Catholics think what they receive is still wine. As people do though it brings to mind, I think for the great apostle Paul (pbuh) that we should obtain form what causes our brother to fall. A hard teaching for a man who is raised in a culture that celebrates with wine / alcohol and does not have a problem.
Where i live many priests have fallen on alcohol and i reflect how this can happen. If the narrations in the bible teach alcohol is for the sorrowful it is maybe our fault. Priests offer so much of G-ds love to us and we or I at least fall so short so often. I must make it hard for them and surely it would sadden them or at least contribute.
I have a close friend who is a priest that had fallen to alcohol it was a very hard time for him and i know that the sacrament became difficult for him. We need to be close to our priests and walk with them as brothers and sisters realising they are human like us. When we are aware their faith in the sacrament is weakened by alcohol addiction and cover them in prayer.
IMO it is not the priest that changes the state of the gifts but it is G-d who does so the sacrifice is at His hands not the priests or better understood the sacrifice is at all of our hands.
While i dont see what we receive as alcohol i was shocked that a Catholic poster said along the lines if you dont see it dont go back. I am not receiving the same as them for what / who i receive wants you back to the fullness offered but will grow in you the faith that will serve His will to His glory.
From a personal view point i would encourage Catholics who believe they receive wine to consider it may not be best to discuss it as anything other than weakness so publically. It may be better with your priest, prayer group or people that are physically close to you or by PM with your CAF brethren. Dont stop asking or seeking, hiding from what we dont understand is not a good thing to do.
If the Catholic church teaches the Eucharist is the source and the summit of your faith and you aspire to this teaching, what Catholics receive is truly not wine.
“I will be what I will be”, you have free will so choose who you see
I respect that we are all at different places on the faith journey but personally (no disrespect to you) find it very hard to see why so many Catholics think what they receive is still wine. As people do though it brings to mind, I think for the great apostle Paul (pbuh) that we should obtain form what causes our brother to fall. A hard teaching for a man who is raised in a culture that celebrates with wine / alcohol and does not have a problem.
Where i live many priests have fallen on alcohol and i reflect how this can happen. If the narrations in the bible teach alcohol is for the sorrowful it is maybe our fault. Priests offer so much of G-ds love to us and we or I at least fall so short so often. I must make it hard for them and surely it would sadden them or at least contribute.
I have a close friend who is a priest that had fallen to alcohol it was a very hard time for him and i know that the sacrament became difficult for him. We need to be close to our priests and walk with them as brothers and sisters realising they are human like us. When we are aware their faith in the sacrament is weakened by alcohol addiction and cover them in prayer.
IMO it is not the priest that changes the state of the gifts but it is G-d who does so the sacrifice is at His hands not the priests or better understood the sacrifice is at all of our hands.
While i dont see what we receive as alcohol i was shocked that a Catholic poster said along the lines if you dont see it dont go back. I am not receiving the same as them for what / who i receive wants you back to the fullness offered but will grow in you the faith that will serve His will to His glory.
From a personal view point i would encourage Catholics who believe they receive wine to consider it may not be best to discuss it as anything other than weakness so publically. It may be better with your priest, prayer group or people that are physically close to you or by PM with your CAF brethren. Dont stop asking or seeking, hiding from what we dont understand is not a good thing to do.
If the Catholic church teaches the Eucharist is the source and the summit of your faith and you aspire to this teaching, what Catholics receive is truly not wine.
“I will be what I will be”, you have free will so choose who you see
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