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RyanL
Guest
I’m sorry, is this backed up by anything substantial or is this merely a libelous allegation?
This is complete hogwash. No wonder you won’t answer my question - you’re terrible at history! “Given access”?!? You mean “present at mass”?!? The reading of Scripture is part of the mass!!
Further, when the general public is illiterate and the printing press hasn’t been invented, that’s the only way they will ever hear the Bible!! This is too silly to even rant about, so I’m just going to stop here.
God Bless,
RyanL
P.S.,
Doesn’t it strike you as a little odd that you can’t find a Protestant in the first millenium of Christian history? Doesn’t that seem to imply that some things Protestants believe were unknown to the Church for well over a thousand years? Doesn’t that then seem to imply that neither Christ nor the Apostles taught these things?
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havemercy
Guest
myfavoritemartin, where did you get that from? All of that text in those three long posts you made?
Ludicris.
Ludicris.
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
This was the defense (apology) of claudius of turin catholic bishop, so go ahead and say ludicrous, or maybe the vatican can make him anti-bishop. Ryan read the whole apology.
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super64
Guest
Amen!
That would make you Catholic and not Anabaptist! Because of the Five major centers of Christian Churches these churches were catholic in that they were all universal in teaching. They spoke with one voice. Each church did not act independantly but under the guidance of one among all equals…he would be called Pope. It wasn’t until people started spliting off to form their own churches that ‘denominations’ really started in yearnest. Admittedly, we all would want to drop the specific denomination titles but because of people like you who are mislead and/or unlead. You subscribe to the bible…which comes to us from the Church.
Am I ‘born again’? I was reborn from above at baptism and seal with the Holy Spirit at confirmation when a priest did what all preists do going back to the Apostles did 2000years ago…they laid their hands on head and prayed over me.
I tell ya what, go and meet with the Pope and have a heart to heart talk with him about all this stuff you espouse. Ask your questions of him. If you can convince him, then we’ll all become Anabaptist or whatever you are today.
So until that happens, I’ll go with Jesus’ choice…with Simon, changed to Cephas at the helm.(Rock)(Peter)(whether small stone or large rock, it’s still a small piece of the foundation of Christs Church 
)1Cor.16:15-16
I urge you, brothers - you know that the household of Stephanas is the firstfruits of Achaia and that they have devoted themselves to the service of the holy ones -
be subordinate to such people and to everyone who works and toils with them.
Because they are working in Christ Jesus!
Peace be with you.
P.S. How could Paul be their leader when Titus was appointed to Paul by the Church in Jerusalem headed by Peter.
2Cor.8:19
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sires6
Guest
All the information about Paul that you put out there, Martin, is great. But you see, there is one problem with your logic. When Saint Jerome, arguably the greatest translator of the church, was alive, there was someone else who was Pope. So, does this lessen Jerome’s accomplishments? Does this lessen the primacy of the Pope of the time (St. Damasus I)? Does Paul’s preaching ability negate Peter’s being given the keys?
Sure, Paul was a great preacher and theologian, but Peter was the rock.
So, the real question Martin, if you are really interested in hearing what we have to say and learning about why we are coming in droves to the Catholic Church from Protestantism, or are you just trying to knock some of those that read these boards down?
I would hope that you would begin to see as much scriptural strength in our arguments as in yours. Do you?
So, the real question is if you realized that our arguments are not leveled at “both” and not “either/or” (the arguments I had when struggling against the Catholic Church)…
Both Marian as a person we can ask for prayers (if Christ is your all in all and you don’t need to go to anyone else, why do you ask friends for prayer…) AND Jesus as our only salvation. Both Saints on earth and in Heaven, BOTH Scripture and GOOD tradition, BOTH Peter as Rock AND Paul as Master Theologian, BOTH(not grammatically correct… but that’s ok) CHrist as a REAL Presence in the Mass AND In Heaven AND at Calvary.
We can have it both ways. Really, Protestantism is too narrow for me anymore… too restrictive. What do you mean I can only have Scripture? What do you mean I can ONLY have Jesus and not those (the saints) who are examples of hard work and devotion? What do you mean I can only have his “divine” presence and not his REAL Presence ALSO? So many narrow things, step into the Grand Ballroom, Martin, and out of the entryway, you’re missing a whole lot…
To the Greater Glory of God…
Sure, Paul was a great preacher and theologian, but Peter was the rock.
So, the real question Martin, if you are really interested in hearing what we have to say and learning about why we are coming in droves to the Catholic Church from Protestantism, or are you just trying to knock some of those that read these boards down?
I would hope that you would begin to see as much scriptural strength in our arguments as in yours. Do you?
So, the real question is if you realized that our arguments are not leveled at “both” and not “either/or” (the arguments I had when struggling against the Catholic Church)…
Both Marian as a person we can ask for prayers (if Christ is your all in all and you don’t need to go to anyone else, why do you ask friends for prayer…) AND Jesus as our only salvation. Both Saints on earth and in Heaven, BOTH Scripture and GOOD tradition, BOTH Peter as Rock AND Paul as Master Theologian, BOTH(not grammatically correct… but that’s ok) CHrist as a REAL Presence in the Mass AND In Heaven AND at Calvary.
We can have it both ways. Really, Protestantism is too narrow for me anymore… too restrictive. What do you mean I can only have Scripture? What do you mean I can ONLY have Jesus and not those (the saints) who are examples of hard work and devotion? What do you mean I can only have his “divine” presence and not his REAL Presence ALSO? So many narrow things, step into the Grand Ballroom, Martin, and out of the entryway, you’re missing a whole lot…
To the Greater Glory of God…
S
ScottH
Guest
Hmmm…
Well, I suppose your denomination isn’t dealing with homosexual ordination, gender neutral Bible/Hmynal issues, female ordination, constant in-house debate about which part of scripture is more important than the others (i.e. do we speak in tongues or is it not really necessary), perhaps your own brand of covenant baptism theology, predestination, etc. Perhaps your denomination hasn’t villified fermented yeast excrement (alcohol) as a tool of the devil (Despite our Lord giving it to us at the wedding in Cana…). Perhaps your denomination hasn’t been taken over by leftist majorities who want entertained on Sunday and more populist views adopted so more people can come, and it can then be called “better evangelism?”
Somehow- this pure denomination you are affiliated with has missed out on all that? If so, good for you.
But then again, perhaps you are in a non-denominational church? Perhaps then you’ve also been spared the influx of the “any ol’ worship will do” charasmatics who preface darn near each sentence with “God put it on my heart to tell you all…(insert dreamy statement here)” or perhaps you are in one of those non-denominational churches where Joel-Osteen styled feelgoodism and fundraising hasn’t taken the stage way ahead of the communion table?
But then again, perhaps you church has missed out on all that too, and been spared. If so, good for you.
And if all of that is true…
Then you must be the most fortunate protestant church around (or perhaps you are already Roman Catholic.)
but be careful where the stones are thrown… they tend to bounce backwards.
Signed,
Former Presbyterian of 32 years.
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Contarini
Guest
I agree that the true Church is the universal church of believers. That’s why your last statement is so bizarre and absurd. Obviously Catholics (as far as outward profession goes) are part of the universal Church already. Certainly evangelical Protestants can play a valuable role in awakening nominal Catholics (and other Protestants, and hopefully ourselves as well!) to a living faith in Christ. But that doesn’t involve guiding Catholics “away” from the Roman Communion toward the “treu church.”
Furthermore, if all believers are part of the universal Church, why don’t we act like it? Why aren’t we accountable to each other?
Edwin
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Contarini
Guest
No, Satan does not believe in Jesus. You show complete ignorance of what Protestants mean by “believing in Jesus.”
Satan believes that Jesus is the Son of God. Satan does not place his trust in Jesus. Jesus is not Satan’s whole comfort in life and in death. That’s what believing in Jesus means.
Edwin
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Contarini
Guest
That’s ridiculous. Constantine’s reign didn’t mark some huge change in the nature of papal authority. It existed in some form long before Constantine. It did not exist in its modern form till long after Constantine.
The only doctrines that were defined by the Pope acting alone were the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption. And they rested on longstanding tradition. So your definition leaves most if not all Catholic dogmas as the teaching of the “church of believers.”
Edwin
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Contarini
Guest
Nonsense. The Orthodox reject papal authority but they are far from Protestant.
Edwin
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Contarini
Guest
So your doctrine of justification does not differ from that of Catholicism? If it does–if this is part of your understanding of the Gospel–then can you show where Claudius taught a Protestant view of justification?
Edwin
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Philthy
Guest
Be serious - he was a Catholic Bishop - this is your idea of someone embracing your beliefs? That is not simply “assigned” to some one with the proper education or skills, it requires a profession of faith and loyalty to the Magisterium. It is a given that his beliefs were Catholic. His only area of dissent was over the concept of using statues and relics as a means to draw one to God. On this one issue his stance is neither entirely Catholic nor Protestant: he even opposes the display of bare crosses! But the real point is that he remained Catholic because he knew that was the true Church of Jesus Christ - period.
You allege that his beliefs are more in line with yours than mine. Would you be so bold as to state those beliefs of yours that you believe he ascribes to and that contradicted a defined matter of faith in the Catholic Church of his time?
You undermine his credibility with this statement. Are you saying he was afraid to die for his faith?? He would’ve spoken his mind regardless - he simply didnt oppose the Church the way you believe he did. Of course he had some issues on practices - so what? Do you think that’s not allowed in the Catholic Church?
I didnt actually see that many disagreements from your post - there was only one - the proper place of relics, statues, etc.
I’ll keep looking for more issues - do you have a link to his full apology?
The bottom line remains, however: he did not abandon the Church, nor did anyone excommunicate him. How does that fit into your version of his beliefs??
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
M
MrS
Guest
Welcome home to the Infallible Church filled with fallible people.
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
I would say you fairly accurately described my home church which is one of the largest and fastest growing single non denominational churches in the world with missions spreading throughout south america, worship centers throughout the Middle east including Iraq.
Missions throughtout Russia and Africa and we are truly blessed, any given Sunday at one service our attendance exceeds 2,500 at one location for one service. We do feel the Holy Spirit touch us daily in helping to spread the good news. We have not dealt with homosexuality with in our church, rather at a recent event at the state capitol regarding s/s marraige we probably provided more protesters than any congregation in our state. We are very blessed and give all thanks to our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ, who without him none of this would be possible.
Missions throughtout Russia and Africa and we are truly blessed, any given Sunday at one service our attendance exceeds 2,500 at one location for one service. We do feel the Holy Spirit touch us daily in helping to spread the good news. We have not dealt with homosexuality with in our church, rather at a recent event at the state capitol regarding s/s marraige we probably provided more protesters than any congregation in our state. We are very blessed and give all thanks to our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ, who without him none of this would be possible.
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MrS
Guest
what praytell… makes yours a “non denominational”??
You just don’t believe the same as any of the thousand “denominationals” or what?
Do you have a creed that you might share with us…
or a catechism, or a profession of faith etc.
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
Our church is Baptist in origin.
I’ll share with you what we believe and you just have fun.
The Word of God
The Bible, consisting of the sixty-six books of the Old and New Testaments, alone is the Word of God, fully inspired and without error in the original manuscripts, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and having supreme authority in all matters of faith and life.
The Trinity
There is One living and true God, eternally existing in three Persons. They are equal in every divine perfection and They execute distinct but harmonious offices in the work of creation, providence and redemption.
God the Father
God the Father is the infinite, eternal and almighty personal Spirit, perfect in holiness, wisdom, power and love, and is the first Person of the Trinity. He concerns Himself mercifully in the affairs of people, He hears and answers prayers, and He saves from sin and death all who come to Him in repentance and faith through Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ is God’s only begotten Son, was conceived by the Holy Spirit and is the second Person of the Trinity. He was miraculously born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, and performed miracles. We affirm His incarnation, teachings, substitutionary atoning death, bodily resurrection, ascension into heaven, perpetual intercession for His people, and His personal, visible return to earth. Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God the Father and humanity.
The Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is the third Person of the Trinity and is sent from the Father and Son to convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment, and to regenerate, sanctify and empower all who believe in Jesus Christ. At the moment of salvation the Holy Spirit, as the abiding Helper, Teacher and Guide, indwells every believer in Christ and endows each believer with spiritual gifts for ministry to the family of God and the world.
Salvation
The central purpose of God’s revelation in the Bible is to call all people into awareness of their sin, the availability of God’s marvelous grace, and the need for repentance and faith that results in complete forgiveness and fellowship with God. All people are sinners by nature and by choice and are, therefore, under the judgment of God. Those who call on the Lord Jesus Christ for forgiveness, believe in His resurrection and receive Him as their Savior are granted salvation, forgiveness of their sin and are regenerated by the Holy Spirit into a new life in Christ. This act of salvation is based solely on the grace and mercy of God, and is not the result of human deeds or goodness.
Future Destiny
The Lord Jesus Christ will come again to earth, personally and visibly, to establish His kingdom and fulfill God’s eternal plan for creation. Death seals the eternal destiny of each person. For each person, there will be a resurrection of the body, the final judgment before God, the eternal bliss in heaven for those who are in Christ Jesus, and the endless suffering in hell for those who have not received salvation.
The Church
The Church consists of a living spiritual body of which Christ is the head and all regenerated persons are members, and exists as both a world-wide fellowship of the family of God as well as in specific local congregations consisting of a community of believers in Jesus Christ who are committed to obedience to Him. Believers in a local church are called by God to gather together to devote themselves to worship, prayer, the teaching of the Word of God, observance of baptism and communion as ordinances established by Jesus Christ, and to fellowship and to minister to one another through the development and use of talents and spiritual gifts. God has laid upon the members of the local church the primary task of proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the world, beginning in their own communities and reaching cross-culturally to the ends of the earth.
The Ordinances
The Lord Jesus Christ has instituted two ordinances for obedient observance by the local church: baptism and the Lord’s Supper. Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Baptism does not constitute salvation, but is a public profession of faith that a person has already experienced salvation. The Scriptures teach that the elements of Communion, or the Lord’s Supper, have no mystical or supernatural power, but were given by Jesus as symbols of the sacrifice of His body and blood as an atonement for the sins of the world. These two ordinances are to be observed and administered by God’s family until the return of the Lord Jesus Christ.
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MrS
Guest
the “fun” you mention is in apologetics - the sharing, explaining, and defending of the Faith. So yes, be prepared now to see lots and lots of posters here have lots and lots of fun… not at your expense, but in apologetics.
shall we begin… the highlighted parts are among the more popular of protestant errors. You can probably use the “search” engine and find long threads that refute [1] the number… you are short 7… [2] the bible itself refutes your statement that it is alone the Word of God… and [3] who gave the bible supreme authority?? when the bible itself says the Church has that authority.
You fortunately have three responses… search the threads…or injoy the fun other posters will have in teaching you… or ignore and continue in error. Two out of three are good choices, and that ain’t bad for a start.
M
MrS
Guest
The Word of God
The Bible, consisting of the sixty-six books of the Old and New Testaments, alone is the Word of God, fully inspired and without error in the original manuscripts, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and having supreme authority in all matters of faith and life.
oops… mistakes already
The Trinity
There is One living and true God, eternally existing in three Persons. They are equal in every divine perfection and They execute distinct but harmonious offices in the work of creation, providence and redemption.
oops… you got it right… how did that happen
God the Father
God the Father is the infinite, eternal and almighty personal Spirit, perfect in holiness, wisdom, power and love, and is the first Person of the Trinity. He concerns Himself mercifully in the affairs of people, He hears and answers prayers, and He saves from sin and death all who come to Him in repentance and faith through Jesus Christ.
almost… more later
Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ is God’s only begotten Son, was conceived by the Holy Spirit and is the second Person of the Trinity. He was miraculously born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, and performed miracles. We affirm His incarnation, teachings, substitutionary atoning death, bodily resurrection, ascension into heaven, perpetual intercession for His people, and His personal, visible return to earth. Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God the Father and humanity.
just “a virgin” or is the M on your keyboard broke? otherwise, you again hit the target… mostly
The Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is the third Person of the Trinity and is sent from the Father and Son to convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment, and to regenerate, sanctify and empower all who believe in Jesus Christ. At the moment of salvation the Holy Spirit, as the abiding Helper, Teacher and Guide, indwells every believer in Christ and endows each believer with spiritual gifts for ministry to the family of God and the world.
not half bad… but what happened to harmonious?
Salvation
The central purpose of God’s revelation in the Bible is to call all people into awareness of their sin, the availability of God’s marvelous grace, and the need for repentance and faith that results in complete forgiveness and fellowship with God. All people are sinners by nature and by choice and are, therefore, under the judgment of God. Those who call on the Lord Jesus Christ for forgiveness, believe in His resurrection and receive Him as their Savior are granted salvation, forgiveness of their sin and are regenerated by the Holy Spirit into a new life in Christ. This act of salvation is based solely on the grace and mercy of God, and is not the result of human deeds or goodness.
sounds almost Catholic !!
Future Destiny
The Lord Jesus Christ will come again to earth, personally and visibly, to establish His kingdom and fulfill God’s eternal plan for creation. Death seals the eternal destiny of each person. For each person, there will be a resurrection of the body, the final judgment before God, the eternal bliss in heaven for those who are in Christ Jesus, and the endless suffering in hell for those who have not received salvation.
how many judgments?? what happens if you die without being fully and completely holy and without blemish??
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