SPLIT: No earthly tabernacles

[ralphy]

The fact that many modern Catholic churches do not have the tabernacle in the sanctuary, or on a small “side altar” is quite disturbing to me. I believe that that Tabernacle should be in the center of the high altar. It shows that Christ’s body is the CENTER of attention during the mass. I went to a Church the other day and the Tabernacle was literally in another room, which was only visible to the right side of the aisle. Will the Holy Father do anything to correct this Architectural disaster?

I wouldn’t necessarily call myself an extreme traditionalist, but this is just totally inappropriate.

Do you guys agree?

By the way, there are no earthly tabernacles anymore, take a look at Hebrews 8: 1,2. In Christian love, Ralph

 

[Jean_Anthony]

aaa

 

[richardacombs]

By the way, there are no earthly tabernacles anymore, take a look at Hebrews 8: 1,2. In Christian love, Ralph

Actually, all believers are temples (tabernacles) of the Holy Ghost. (1 Cor 16-17)

Since, we (Catholics) believe that the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ, we (Catholics) would consider any place the Eucharist is stored as a tabernacle. I believe that Hebrews 8:1-2 follows from the last part of Hebrews 7; the point being that believers no longer need a high priest to mediate between them and God, for believers have Jesus as the eternal High Priest, Who sits before the Father in the actual tabernacle of God, not an earthly, imperfect representation.

 

[ralphy]

Actually, all believers are temples (tabernacles) of the Holy Ghost. (1 Cor 16-17)

Since, we (Catholics) believe that the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ, we (Catholics) would consider any place the Eucharist is stored as a tabernacle. I believe that Hebrews 8:1-2 follows from the last part of Hebrews 7; the point being that believers no longer need a high priest to mediate between them and God, for believers have Jesus as the eternal High Priest, Who sits before the Father in the actual tabernacle of God, not an earthly, imperfect representation.

You are correct, believers no longer need a priest,(then why does the RCC have them) to mediate between them and God. Jesus is our High Priest, our mediator, and He is not on earth, He is in heaven. He is not in any form in a tabernacle here. This bread and wine we use as communion represents His Body and Blood, they are symbols only. Did you ever actually take a look at what you take at communion,if not, then why don’t you. In Christian love, Ralph

 

[Randy_Carson]

You are correct, believers no longer need a priest,(then why does the RCC have them) to mediate between them and God. Jesus is our High Priest, our mediator, and He is not on earth, He is in heaven. He is not in any form in a tabernacle here. This bread and wine we use as communion represents His Body and Blood, they are symbols only. Did you ever actually take a look at what you take at communion,if not, then why don’t you. In Christian love, Ralph

The Catholic Church has priest because Jesus established the NT priesthood. I direct you to the following:

Did Jesus Give Priests to the Church?
By Kenneth J. Howell
catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0404sbs.asp

In the OT, the structure of the priesthood looked like this:

1. Aaron, high priest
2. Levites, ministerial priests
3. Israel, a nation of priests

We see a similar structure in the NT. Check out the passage on the Ministerial Priesthood below concerning Paul’s reference to the NT priesthood.

The New Testament Priesthood Proved from Scripture

Jesus, Our Eternal High Priest

“Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.” (Hebrews 4:14)

The Ministerial Priesthood

“But I have written very boldly to you on some points so as to remind you again, because of the grace that was given me from God, to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, ministering as a priest the gospel of God, so that my offering of the Gentiles may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.” (Romans 15:15-16)

The Universal Priesthood of All Belivers

“But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.” (1 Peter 2:9)

Additionally, we find that the Apostle Paul himself forgave the sins of others acting in persona Christi or “in the person of Christ” – just as the Catholic Church teaches concerning the sacrament of reconciliation.

2 Corinthians 2:10
10To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ; (KJV)

And to whom you have pardoned any thing, I also. For, what I have pardoned, if I have pardoned any thing, for your sakes have I done it in the person of Christ. (Douay Rheims)

 

[PRmerger]

Did you ever actually take a look at what you take at communion,if not, then why don’t you. In Christian love, Ralph

Ralphy, this is very, very treacherous waters you’re treading in. Clearly as Christians we don’t judge by appearances. For Jesus appeared as a man, yet who could doubt He was God?

You will be at a loss to argue with an atheist, ralphy, if you succumb to this argument that something is only what its physical appearance is. He will tell you, if you doubt that bread and wine can be Jesus’ flesh and blood, then how can you propose that a mere man, flesh and blood, could be Divine?

 

[Todd_Easton]

…believers no longer need a priest,(then why does the RCC have them)

Priests exist to offer sacrifices. Pagan priests offered food and drink sacrifices to their idols, their demons. Jewish priests offered food and drink to the Lord. Christian priests, such as St. Paul (Romans 15:16), offer food and drink sacrifices to the Lord.

The Catholic Church has Christian priests to facilitate the sacrificial worship of the Lord that takes place when Christians assemble to eat the Lord’s supper. At the Lord’s supper, a Christian priest offers bread and a cup of wine in sacrifice to the Lord on an altar dedicated to the Lord, “the table of the Lord” and “the cup of the Lord,” and then the Christians assembled partake of those sacrificial offerings as an expression of their partnership with the Lord. (1 Corinthians 10:14-22, 11:23-32)

This bread and wine we use as communion represents His Body and Blood, they are symbols only. Did you ever actually take a look at what you take at communion,if not, then why don’t you.

Sometimes things are not always what they appear (Hebrews 13:2) and such is the case with what we receive at communion, which should not be judged by outward appearances, the folly of nonspiritual men, but with the spiritual discernment of spiritual men that reveals hidden realities. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

The bread and the cup of wine, when offered in sacrifice by a Catholic priest at the Lord’s supper assembly, become a participation in the body and blood of the Lord so that the Christians who then partake of those offerings share not only in the sacrifice of the bread and wine but they also share in the salvific sacrifice of the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ which He Himself offered up as our High Priest on the altar of the Cross at Calvary, so that anyone who eats the bread or drinks of the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner profanes the body and blood of the Lord and anyone who eats the bread and drinks of the cup without recognizing the body and blood of the Lord eats and drinks a judgment upon himself.

 

[ralphy]

The Catholic Church has priest because Jesus established the NT priesthood. I direct you to the following:

Did Jesus Give Priests to the Church?
By Kenneth J. Howell
catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0404sbs.asp

In the OT, the structure of the priesthood looked like this:

1. Aaron, high priest
2. Levites, ministerial priests
3. Israel, a nation of priests

We see a similar structure in the NT. Check out the passage on the Ministerial Priesthood below concerning Paul’s reference to the NT priesthood.

The New Testament Priesthood Proved from Scripture

Jesus, Our Eternal High Priest

“Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.” (Hebrews 4:14)

The Ministerial Priesthood

“But I have written very boldly to you on some points so as to remind you again, because of the grace that was given me from God, to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, ministering as a priest the gospel of God, so that my offering of the Gentiles may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.” (Romans 15:15-16)

The Universal Priesthood of All Belivers

“But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.” (1 Peter 2:9)

Additionally, we find that the Apostle Paul himself forgave the sins of others acting in persona Christi or “in the person of Christ” – just as the Catholic Church teaches concerning the sacrament of reconciliation.

2 Corinthians 2:10
10To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ; (KJV)

And to whom you have pardoned any thing, I also. For, what I have pardoned, if I have pardoned any thing, for your sakes have I done it in the person of Christ. (Douay Rheims)

I have read the article you mentioned in your thread, obviously very RC. It does not hold any water with me, it is all based on apostolic succession which is strictly RC teaching, and therefore without foundation. If you call your RC priest a elder or bishop, is he the husband of one wife as stated in scripture. I would also like to know why he stands offering sacrifices, when there are no more sacrifices to be made for sin, according to scripture. Here is the picture according to scripture: Christ is in heaven interceding for us, so that means we go directly to Him without a mediator, no priest, no saints or anyone else to go through, just directly to Him. His finished work on the cross at Calvary where He shed His blood for our sins was sufficient and nothing else is required, no more sacrifices for sin. We come to him on a personal basis for forgiveness of sins, and we will also stand before Him alone without excuse when He judges us at the “judgment seat of Christ” (if you are saved), or “the white throne judgment” (if you are unsaved). We do not need pomp and ceremony, or a great number of people to advise us and instruct us what to do. We have the word of God which He left for us so we could have the truth to follow, we need to study the Word to prove ourselves acceptable to Him. We should gather together as believers to worship Him, and hear someone administer the Word so that we may be strengthened by the Holy Spirit, sharing with each other what the lord has been doing in our lives, and what we have been doing for Him. In Christian love, Ralph.

 

[ralphy]

Priests exist to offer sacrifices. Pagan priests offered food and drink sacrifices to their idols, their demons. Jewish priests offered food and drink to the Lord. Christian priests, such as St. Paul (Romans 15:16), offer food and drink sacrifices to the Lord.

The Catholic Church has Christian priests to facilitate the sacrificial worship of the Lord that takes place when Christians assemble to eat the Lord’s supper. At the Lord’s supper, a Christian priest offers bread and a cup of wine in sacrifice to the Lord on an altar dedicated to the Lord, “the table of the Lord” and “the cup of the Lord,” and then the Christians assembled partake of those sacrificial offerings as an expression of their partnership with the Lord. (1 Corinthians 10:14-22, 11:23-32)

Sometimes things are not always what they appear (Hebrews 13:2) and such is the case with what we receive at communion, which should not be judged by outward appearances, the folly of nonspiritual men, but with the spiritual discernment of spiritual men that reveals hidden realities. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

The bread and the cup of wine, when offered in sacrifice by a Catholic priest at the Lord’s supper assembly, become a participation in the body and blood of the Lord so that the Christians who then partake of those offerings share not only in the sacrifice of the bread and wine but they also share in the salvific sacrifice of the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ which He Himself offered up as our High Priest on the altar of the Cross at Calvary, so that anyone who eats the bread or drinks of the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner profanes the body and blood of the Lord and anyone who eats the bread and drinks of the cup without recognizing the body and blood of the Lord eats and drinks a judgment upon himself.

Obviously, you are not aware that there are no more sacrifices for sin, so why does the RCC continue doing it. Why not just look into the Bible and find the truth. In Christian love, Ralph.

 

[Third_Day]

=ralphy;6976118] it is all based on apostolic succession which is strictly RC teaching, and therefore without foundation.

The apostles were Bishops and they appointed other Bishops by the laying on of hands. Check out your 1611 King James which says “let his bishopric another take” Acts 1:20

If you call your RC priest a elder or bishop, is he the husband of one wife as stated in scripture

. Paul was a priest and Bishop and yet was single. The early converts to Christians were married and therefore married clergy was necessary in order to lay the foundation of the Church. As the Church grew the Church adopted the teaching of Paul as well as Jesus who said “and there are eunuchs (celibate men) who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 19:12

I would also like to know why he stands offering sacrifices, when there are no more sacrifices to be made for sin, according to scripture

. Hebrews tells us the Christians had an altar; "we have an altar from which you have no right to eat " Heb.13:10
An altar is used for only one thing, sacrifice. Paul forgave sins( 2 Cor: 2:20) and offered the sacrifice of the Mass( 1 Cor.11:23-30)

Here is the picture according to scripture: Christ is in heaven interceding for us, so that means we go directly to Him without a mediator, no priest, no saints or anyone else to go through, just directly to Him.

Do you always go directly to him? Why does your pastor pray for others? Why does your congregation pray for those that are sick? Why doesn’t the sick person just go directly go God instead of having the congregation become mediators between himself and God?

His finished work on the cross at Calvary where He shed His blood for our sins was sufficient and nothing else is required, no more sacrifices for sin.

THe first Mass was at the Last Supper. The Mass is the same sacrifice not a new one.

We come to him on a personal basis for forgiveness of sins, and we will also stand before Him alone without excuse when He judges us at the “judgment seat of Christ” (if you are saved), or “the white throne judgment” (if you are unsaved).

That 's not what scripture says “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ , so that each one may receive good or evil according to what he has done in the body” It is here that you will receive either eternal life or eternal hell. The idea that you cannot lose your salvation but only your rewards is a false gospel, a doctrine of men

We do not need pomp and ceremony, or a great number of people to advise us and instruct us what to do

. Do you follow this command from scripture? “Obey your leaders and submit to them for they are keeping watch over your souls” Heb. 13:17

We have the word of God which He left for us so we could have the truth to follow, we need to study the Word to prove ourselves acceptable to Him

How do you know that your or your pastors interpretation is correct?

We should gather together as believers to worship Him, and hear someone administer the Word so that we may be strengthened by the Holy Spirit, sharing with each other what the lord has been doing in our lives, and what we have been doing for Him. In Christian love, Ralph.

Hebrews 10:25-26 tells us that there were some who were in the habit of not meeting together and that for them there was no “sacrifice for sin” becasue they rejected the truth. My question to you is how did they early Christians worship, like Protestants or like Catholics? Read the early Church Fathers and you will find they worshiped like Catholics because they were Catholics.

 

[Third_Day]

Obviously, you are not aware that there are no more sacrifices for sin, so why does the RCC continue doing it. Why not just look into the Bible and find the truth. In Christian love, Ralph.

"Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things with better sacrifices than these ’ Heb. 9:23

Notice it says “sacrifices” plural. The New Covenant sacrifice of the Mass instituted by Christ at the Last Supper is a better sacrifice then the old covenant sacrifice because it is the “same” sacrifice"of the cross. That is why Jesus said “do this in rememberance of me.”

You alo need to consider the prophecy of the sacrifice of the Mass in Malachi 1:11

“For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations and in every place incense is offered to my name and a pure offering for my name is great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts.”

Ony the Catholic Mass fullfills this prophecy. It is offered throughout the world from sunrise to sunset in all the nations and it is a pure offering. No Jewish ceremony can fulfill this prophecy and certaintly no Protestant bible service.

 

[richardacombs]

You are correct, believers no longer need a priest,(then why does the RCC have them) to mediate between them and God. Jesus is our High Priest, our mediator, and He is not on earth, He is in heaven. He is not in any form in a tabernacle here. This bread and wine we use as communion represents His Body and Blood, they are symbols only. Did you ever actually take a look at what you take at communion,if not, then why don’t you. In Christian love, Ralph

When I look at the Eucharist I see unleavened bread and red wine, but I know the substance of Jesus is there. A perfect simile comes to mind. If I should look at ralphy, what would I see? A complex composition of basic elements and no more. For all physical creation is constructed of basic elements. If ralphy should die, I would still see the same physical body. If scientists examined the basic elements of the body, including the DNA, which made ralphy the uniquely physical ralphy, they would still be the same, but the physical body would no longer be ralphy.

The lifeforce, what Christians call the soul, would have departed from the body, and since Christians believe that that particular soul was the immortal, spiritual ralphy, ralphy would still be, but no longer in his body. If ralphy were divine and able to reanimate and glorify his body, then he would resurrect.

We believe that Jesus did in fact resurrect. “For nothing is impossible with God.” (Luke 1:37)

Certainly, Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between believers and God ,and only faith by grace is the sole requirement for salvation. As St Paul pointed out Abraham attained his reward through faith by grace. This explains why we (Catholics) believe that even non-Christians can attain salvation through faith by grace.

The Church, however, provides believers simple steps (We call them sacraments.) to the Way. The hierarchy of the Church down to the local priest give believers a helping hand and point out the straightest path to salvation. After all, early Church leaders compiled the modern bible from a plethora of available documents. It was the Fathers and the Doctors of the Church that developed the modern concept of the Trinity. It was Peter and Paul and John and Ambrose and Augustine and Aquinas and all the Apostles and Fathers and Doctors of the Church that rebutted the myriad heresies until the Reformation.

No religious group, but the Church can trace its roots back to the Apostles. There is an unbroken chain in the history of the Church, and Pope Benedict XVI is newest link.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Ralphy, your post reminds me about that little sentence:

I never said you stole the money.

Now wouldn’t you say, Ralphy, that that was a pretty clear, simple sentence? Wouldn’t you say that you perfectly understood what the sentence meant, just reading it?

But Ralphy, depending on the emphasis one puts on a given word, the sentence can change radically.

“I” never said you stole the money. (the emphasis on I means that somebody ELSE accused you.)
I ‘never’ said you stole the money. (The emphasis on never is that I was never the one who accused you. This means the emphasis is just about equal in that it could be that I don’t believe you stole it, or simply an attempt on my part to opt out of the argument because I hadn’t addressed it, so don’t yell at me when I ‘never’ said it!)
I never ‘said" you stole the money. (The emphasis on said doesn’t mean that I didn’t think it --I just never said it!)
I never said ‘you’ stole the money. (This is a big one --the emphasis here takes ‘you’ right out of it. Somebody stole, but it wasn’t YOU.)
I never said you ‘stole’ the money. (another big one: obviously there has been some action, but instead of it being a ‘wrong’ action of stealing, it was some other action. "Borrowed’ is not stolen, for example.)
I never said you stole the "money’. (here the emphasis shifts. . .something wrong was done, but it wasn’t money that was stolen --perhaps it was something less ‘worthy’, perhaps something even more important.

Somehow, Ralphy, that one little ‘written’ sentence appears to have a lot of different meanings. Some of the meanings are ‘close’ to each other but whether the difference is great or subtle, the difference exists.

One needs an authority, Ralphy, to say exactly what the correct emphasis is. The sentence itself cannot tell you which word is emphasized. The one who said the actual sentence is the authority.

In the case of the Church, we have the Word, Christ, who gave the Word. He is the authority, and He gave us a Church and He gave us (through His apostles to guide that Church) His authority to understand his Written and Spoken Word and whatever the Holy Spirit (who guides us to all Truth) would continue to impart to us. . .

 

[estesbob]

You are correct, believers no longer need a priest,(then why does the RCC have them) to mediate between them and God. Jesus is our High Priest, our mediator, and He is not on earth, He is in heaven. He is not in any form in a tabernacle here. This bread and wine we use as communion represents His Body and Blood, they are symbols only. Did you ever actually take a look at what you take at communion,if not, then why don’t you. In Christian love, Ralph

This is the kind of convoluted thought process that occurs when one makes themselves the sole arbiter of what Scripture means.

 

[ralphy]

Actually, all believers are temples (tabernacles) of the Holy Ghost. (1 Cor 16-17)

Since, we (Catholics) believe that the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ, we (Catholics) would consider any place the Eucharist is stored as a tabernacle. I believe that Hebrews 8:1-2 follows from the last part of Hebrews 7; the point being that believers no longer need a high priest to mediate between them and God, for believers have Jesus as the eternal High Priest, Who sits before the Father in the actual tabernacle of God, not an earthly, imperfect representation.

You are correct, He is in heaven, so why do you say He is here, you cannot have it both ways. Does the priest make Him appear when he wants to. The Eucharist is not the actual body and blood of Christ, He said to His disciples when He talked about the last supper, that it was Spiritual. You cannot receive Christ as a piece of bread, and a cup of wine, He is spirit and you must receive Him spiritually. Your belief in the Eucharist is a teaching of the RCC, and not scriptural. In Christian love, Ralph.

 

[ralphy]

The Catholic Church has priest because Jesus established the NT priesthood. I direct you to the following:

Did Jesus Give Priests to the Church?
By Kenneth J. Howell
catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0404sbs.asp

In the OT, the structure of the priesthood looked like this:

1. Aaron, high priest
2. Levites, ministerial priests
3. Israel, a nation of priests

We see a similar structure in the NT. Check out the passage on the Ministerial Priesthood below concerning Paul’s reference to the NT priesthood.

The New Testament Priesthood Proved from Scripture

Jesus, Our Eternal High Priest

“Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.” (Hebrews 4:14)

The Ministerial Priesthood

“But I have written very boldly to you on some points so as to remind you again, because of the grace that was given me from God, to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, ministering as a priest the gospel of God, so that my offering of the Gentiles may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.” (Romans 15:15-16)

The Universal Priesthood of All Belivers

“But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.” (1 Peter 2:9)

Additionally, we find that the Apostle Paul himself forgave the sins of others acting in persona Christi or “in the person of Christ” – just as the Catholic Church teaches concerning the sacrament of reconciliation.

2 Corinthians 2:10
10To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ; (KJV)

And to whom you have pardoned any thing, I also. For, what I have pardoned, if I have pardoned any thing, for your sakes have I done it in the person of Christ. (Douay Rheims)

You certainly do a lot of scratching to find something that will justify the position of having priests in the RCC, unfortunately, you are doom to failure. We have a high priest, He is in heaven, that’s the One I go to. This RCC teaching has really got a grip on you. I was there one time, I am glad I got into the Bible and saw the light. In christian love, Ralph.

 

[PRmerger]

You are correct, He is in heaven, so why do you say He is here, you cannot have it both ways.

YIKES!

Your God cannot be omnipresent?

 

[richardacombs]

You are correct, He is in heaven, so why do you say He is here, you cannot have it both ways. Does the priest make Him appear when he wants to. The Eucharist is not the actual body and blood of Christ, He said to His disciples when He talked about the last supper, that it was Spiritual. You cannot receive Christ as a piece of bread, and a cup of wine, He is spirit and you must receive Him spiritually. Your belief in the Eucharist is a teaching of the RCC, and not scriptural. In Christian love, Ralph.

First of all, God–the Trinity–is immanent. The Second Person of the Trinity was always God as were the other Persons of the Trinity even as Jesus embodied the “fullness” of God. (Colossians 1:15-20)

As to your conclusion that the Eucharist is unscriptural, I refer you to John 6:53-66. The point of these verses is that to live in Jesus, His disciples had to eat His flesh and drink His blood. Many disciples immediately abandoned Jesus. They said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?” (v60) I don’t believe that those disciples, who followed Him, saw Him, heard Him, then forsook Him, took his words figuratively at all. They believed exactly what He said. So do I.

 

[ralphy]

YIKES!

Your God cannot be omnipresent?

I agree with you that God is omnipresent. He is omnipresent in Spirit. You say He is omnipresent in the flesh, and that he is here on earth, that is not correct. In Christian love, Ralph

 

[PRmerger]

I agree with you that God is omnipresent. He is omnipresent in Spirit, you say He is omnipresent in the flesh, and that he is here on earth, that is not correct. In Christian love, Ralph

What verse in Scripture says Jesus cannot be omnipresent in the flesh? Chapter and verse, please!