SPLIT: Once Saved Always Saved? (Revisited)

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Honestly, what a ridiculous thing to deny free will when every man exercises his own free will on a daily basis. How foolish can you be… (take this rhetorically)
If you are free then why do you need grace (Jn 15:5)?

If you are free, why can’t you freely come to Christ (Jn 6:44, 65)?

You’re will is not free, but is in bondage to sin (Jn 8:34).

Please explain how man’s will, described in Scripture as being in bondage to sin, is free? Please. I’d love to hear your explanation.
 
=Sig;8703257]
The command is that God’s will be done perfectly as God is perfect (Mt 5:48).
Aside from your insulting question below…now you are going to play God and tell God what to accept and what not to accept?
How many of those you mention above were perfect as God is perfect, without spot, or blemish, or sin, or stain?
Any of them?
Aside from the Virgin Mary…while here on earth…you already have been told…that God can only know the status of a soul prior to death.

Sig…the question asked was…“Not to get too deep here but is it possible to surrender totally to God’s will?”

From accounts of their lives…they surrendered their will totally to God’s will.

How they surrendered it…I am not God to know.

Let me ask you this question…if God did not accept the surrender of St. Francis…why did He grant the Stigmata on St. Francis, including the nails on the hands of the saint. which he prayed for?

You should read up his life…so that a dose of humility may rub of on you.
 
Pelagius taught pretty much what you said: God holds man responsible only for those things man is able to do. 🤷
Yes, in Catholicism, God holds man responsible for what man can do with God’s aid. If he won’t accept the life preserver, he drowns.
 
Aside from your insulting question below…now you are going to play God and tell God what to accept and what not to accept?
I referred you to Mt 5:48, why do you not understand that’s what I did?
Aside from the Virgin Mary…while here on earth…you already have been told…that God can only know the status of a soul prior to death.
God has comprehensive knowledge of all things from eternity to eternity.

Therefore, God knows the status of each and every soul AT ALL TIMES.

That’s basic, fundamental Christian theology, friend. :yup:
Sig…the question asked was…“Not to get too deep here but is it possible to surrender totally to God’s will?”
And I answered the question, and you don’t like my answer. OK. I got it.
From accounts of their lives…they surrendered their will totally to God’s will.
I’ve already responded to this.
How they surrendered it…I am not God to know.
That’s right.
Let me ask you this question…if God did not accept the surrender of St. Francis…why did He grant the Stigmata on St. Francis, including the nails on the hands of the saint. which he prayed for?
You’re assuming a lot in the question. I’m probably better off to let it go, and I will it go.
You should read up his life…so that a dose of humility may rub of on you.
I’m humble. I’m also very confident, and very sure of the promises of God, and am bound to proclaim those promises to His glory; I’m sorry that upsets you. 🙂
 
Yes, in Catholicism, God holds man responsible for what man can do with God’s aid. If he won’t accept the life preserver, he drowns.
That’ not what you said earlier.

Earlier you said, "If man has no free will, then he can’t be held responsible for sin."

That’s what you said earlier, as indicated by the quotes around the words. That’s what you said.

And that’s pretty much what Pelagian taught: "God holds man responsible only for those things that man is able to do."

Pelagian was declared a heretic.:sad_yes:

What you and Pelagian say, however, is against Scripture.

Scripture declares both that men were “dead through trespasses and sins” in which we once walked (Eph 2:1), and thus unable to do any spiritual good (cf Rom 8:6-8), and also that we are all guilty before God. If you think about it, if man’s responsibility were limited only to what he was able to do, then the worst sinner, bondaged to sin, could be less guilty before God than the most ardent and fervent Christians who endeavor daily to obey God.

In fact, Satan, would have no guilt at all. Think, think, think. 🤷
 
If you are free then why do you need grace (Jn 15:5)?

If you are free, why can’t you freely come to Christ (Jn 6:44, 65)?

You’re will is not free, but is in bondage to sin (Jn 8:34).

Please explain how man’s will, described in Scripture as being in bondage to sin, is free? Please. I’d love to hear your explanation.
If you are not free then god made you evil. Therefore according to you, god is the author of evil.

So really, the kind of God you believe in is an evil god who damns people for being evil when after all he made them evil.

Thank goodness God is not the god you have in your head.
 
Actually…you did not. So there was nothing to like…🤷
I didn’t say there was anything to like, I said you didn’t like my answer. :rolleyes:
Why? You cannot accept that someone, so attuned to God’s will, can be granted by God the Stigmata?
I didn’t say anything except that you make a lot of assumptions. With every post you post, you prove me right.
Your responses convey the opposite. And you could definitely use an extra dose.
You’re projecting.
Upset me? Not in the least…that is why I exhorted you to read on the life of St. Francis so that so that you will see true humility.
You’re very upset by me. It’s plain to see how upset you are by me. Threatened is probably more accurate. 🤷
 
That’ not what you said earlier.

Earlier you said, "If man has no free will, then he can’t be held responsible for sin."

That’s what you said earlier, as indicated by the quotes around the words. That’s what you said.

And that’s pretty much what Pelagian taught: "God holds man responsible only for those things that man is able to do."

Pelagian was declared a heretic.:sad_yes:
Pelagius was not declared a heretic for simply those words. Those words are in fact correct. God is a just God, if He holds you accountable for something that you are unable to do because He created you that way, then He is unjust. Pelagius was declared a heretic because of the way he extended that statement.

fhansen is correct, (Edited)

God created you. If you do not have free will then all your evil is not a choice made by you - it was something that god built into you very much like a programmer programs a robot to do destructive things. Therefore that evil must have been built in to you when god created you, therefore god created you evil. If that is not bad enough, he demands that you be good when it is impossible because he has already made you bad to the core.

(Edited)

And another thing, if there is no free will then there is no evil.

We do not call robots evil because the havoc they create was not of their own willing.
 
BEST OF DTB*God’s Girl: Calvinism vs Catholicism by Ross Earl Hoffman

deepertruthblog.com/

CALVINISM IS UNREASONABLE
Calvin located the reason of predestination solely in the absolute will of God. But by making God alone responsible for everything, Calvin abolished the free cooperation of the will in obtaining eternal happiness. Therefore he was logically forced to admit an irresistible efficacious grace, to deny the freedom of the will when influenced by grace, and to completely reject supernatural merits (as a secondary reason for eternal happiness).

Not only is God completely responsible for the salvation of the elect, but He must also be responsible for the damnation of the reprobate, even to the point of directly willing their sins. Since God wills everything good for the elect, as well as everything bad for the reprobate, Calvin maintained that Christ died only for the elect (this is challenged by Geisler’s recent book Chosen But Free, see link below):

“As Scripture, then, clearly shows, we say that God once established by his eternal and unchangeable plan those whom he long before determined once for all to receive into salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, he would devote to destruction.

“We assert that, with respect to the elect, this plan was founded upon his freely given mercy, without regard to human worth; but by his just and irreprehensible but incomprehensible judgment he has barred the door of life to those whom he has given over to damnation.” (John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion Book III:21:7)

Salvation and damnation depend wholly on the will of God — man is completely predetermined to one or the other by irresistible grace or the lack thereof, without any cooperation or resistance of his will. Since grace is irresistible, the will of the predestined is not free to cooperate with grace to perform meritorious good works, and so salvation is purely arbitrary. Even more disturbing, since concupiscence is likewise irresistible without God’s grace, the will of the reprobate is not really free to sin and perform culpably evil works, and so damnation is not caused by demerits.

The Calvinist position is consistent with itself, but is not consistent with human experience or the Scriptures. It cannot be reconciled with the cooperation and resistance of free will, sin and virtue, the possible loss of grace, punishment and reward, and the universality of redemption and grace. Calvin’s God is arbitrary and despotic.

The Catholic position is consistent with itself, with human experience, and with the Scriptures. God’s foreknowledge and foreordination of the elect to heavenly glory includes His universal desire and sufficient grace to save all men, our free cooperation with His grace, good works which truly merit heavenly reward, and the real possibility — during this life of testing and pilgrimage — of rejecting grace and salvation and thus deserving the punishments of hell.

IMPORTANT DISTINCTIONS
  1. Predestination is not predetermination :
“Predestination is nothing else than the foreknowledge and foreordaining of those gracious gifts which make certain the salvation of all who are saved.” (St. Augustine, Persever 14:35)

Predestination is God’s decree of the happiness of the elect. God’s infallible foreknowledge (and thus predestination also) includes free will. God’s foreknowledge cannot force upon man unavoidable coercion, for the simple reason that it is at bottom nothing else than the eternal vision of the future historical actuality. God foresees the free activity of a man precisely as that individual is willing to shape it, predestination is not predetermination of the human will.
  1. Free will can resist and reject God’s grace :
“You stiff-necked people…you always resist the Holy Spirit” (Acts 7:51). The angels possessed grace and perfectly intact intellect, and yet many of them freely sinned and rejected God. Adam and Eve possessed grace and a perfectly intact nature, and yet they freely sinned. How much more so is it possible for the born-again Christian, who possesses grace but also a wounded nature and a darkened intellect, to sin also. Paul mentions sins which keep a man from the Kingdom of God: fornication, adultery, homosexuality, theft, greed, and so on (1 Cor 6:9-10).
  1. We cannot confuse Election with being “Born Again” :
The set of those who are “born again” (in Catholic and historic Christian understanding those who have been regenerated “of water and Spirit” in the Sacrament of Baptism — John 3:3,5; Acts 2:38) is not necessarily co-extensive with the set of those who will persevere and gain eternal life. Born-again Christians can and (sadly) do fall away. Otherwise free will and (mortal) sin are merely fictitious for a Christian during this life of testing and pilgrimage. Otherwise all the language in Scripture of persevering to the end in order to be saved (cf. Matt 10:22; 24:13; Phil 2:12-13) makes no sense.

The Pelagian heretics held that man alone (apart from God’s grace) is responsible for his salvation. Calvinists start with the opposite premise that God alone is responsible for man’s salvation
 
Pelagius was not declared a heretic for simply those words. Those words are in fact correct. God is a just God, if He holds you accountable for something that you are unable to do because He created you that way, then He is unjust.
That is what Pelagius said, and Pelagius was declared a heretic.

(Edited)
God created you. If you do not have free will then all your evil is not a choice made by you.
Did you choose for God to create you?

No? So much for your notion that you have free will. 🙂
 
If you are free then you have no need of grace.
There is no contradiction between free will and grace.

The only reason that you think so is because you believe in total depravity. That is why your theology is so completely up the creek.

Free will is itself a grace because it is something that God gave you.

You have not really given your position much thought. The god in your head is an evil god. Think about that.
 
That is what Pelagius said, and Pelagius was declared a heretic.
But not because of that statement. It would be stupid to assume that everything a heretic said is heretical. If Pelagius said that Christ is God, would that make the statement “Christ is God” heretical, just because the person who uttered it has been declared a heretic?
(Edited)
Did you choose for God to create you?
No. Which is precisely my point. (Edited)
No? So much for your notion that you have free will. 🙂
How does God creating you abolish free will? Do you know that that is exactly the atheistic argument?

Are you saying that the only thing God is capable of creating are robots?

(Edited)
 
But not because of that statement. It would be stupid to assume that everything a heretic said is heretical. If Pelagius said that Christ is God, would that make the statement “Christ is God” heretical, just because the person who uttered it has been declared a heretic.

No, I don’t tell you what you believe. You told us. Everything I said followed from what you have written. You are just incapable of following your thoughts to their correct conclusion.

No. Which is precisely my point. Suppose I am an evil psychopath. Since god made me an evil psychopath, then that makes god the author of evil. Think about that.

Which of course, is great ammunition for any atheist viewing this thread.

How does God creating you abolish free will? Do you know that that is exactly the atheistic argument?

Are you saying that the only thing God is capable of creating are robots?
What do you mean? You sound quite crazy with your descriptions of God. They do originate in your head, you know?
 
No? So much for your notion that you have free will. 🙂
By the way, since your god is so capricious and arbitrary, maybe you are one of those that will be consigned to hell. I mean seriously, with such a god, you have no way of knowing. The psychopath that he is, he is probably stringing you along and then bang come judgment day, down you go into the flames.

All your prayers, all your kindness, all that will count for nothing because he has already decreed even before you were born that that is where you are going. At the moment, you are just blissfully unaware of it.
 
What do you mean? You sound quite crazy with your descriptions of God. They do originate in your head, you know?
Shows how incapable you are of extending your thoughts to its rightfull conclusion.

Think Sig, and you will realize that your god is an evil god. It is simple really.
 
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