SPLIT: Once Saved Always Saved? (Revisited)

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Human SOULS are in bondage of sin, human MINDS aren’t, freewill pertains to the mind, therefore man is free to whether choose God or not. A free man still need grace, for only by grace that he is free. You argue that a man in bondage has no freewill, but the opposite is true. Although he may be oppressed, freewill is the only thing no one can take away from him.

I just want to restate something a member has said above. If God does not allow freewill, and predestines certain man to be condemned, then it is God who is the author of evil, or more specifically of their evil. This also mean Calvin’s doctrines of predestination can’t be reconciled with freewill. If God predestinees someone to salvation, regardless how you hate God, God will drag you screaming and fighting to heaven. And yet no matter how an individual want to believe in God, God will kicks him down to the abyss of hell. If that is truly God, then I don’t want no part of him and his religion.
 
Also the doctrine of predestination poses a problem. If God predestines certain to be saved, and Scripture tells us God’s plan is perfect, then what is the point of evangelism? What is the point for missionaries? Of matyrs who sacrificed their lives for the purpose of spreading the Gospel? Since God predestines for some to be saved, regardless of what we do, those people will always be saved, naturally or supernaturally. There is no point for matyrdom, for Stephen to be stoned, Peter to be crucified upside down, for Paul to be executed.
 
Hi!

I’m thinking about rejoining this debate, but with certain understandings.

For one thing, John Calvin is not here. You are not debating with John Calvin but with people now alive. I, for one, do not regard that theologian as some sort of pope. I get the idea that people think that if you attack him, you will somehow convert us to Catholicism. It just does not work that way.

For another, one can believe in free will AND predestination. The “Calvinists” I know affirm both, as a mystery. They reject roboticism as hyperCalvinism. See monergism.com/directory/link_category/Bad-Theology/HyperCalvinism/. for your information, education and inspiration.

You are spending a lot of time attacking hyperCalvinism, not the real deal.

-Tina “Also Somewhat Mysterious” G"
 
TinaG said:
Hi!

I’m thinking about rejoining this debate, but with certain understandings.

For one thing, John Calvin is not here. You are not debating with John Calvin but with people now alive. I, for one, do not regard that theologian as some sort of pope. I get the idea that people think that if you attack him, you will somehow convert us to Catholicism. It just does not work that way.

For another, one can believe in free will AND predestination. The “Calvinists” I know affirm both, as a mystery. They reject roboticism as hyperCalvinism. See monergism.com/directory/link_category/Bad-Theology/HyperCalvinism/. for your information, education and inspiration.

You are spending a lot of time attacking hyperCalvinism, not the real deal.

-Tina “Also Somewhat Mysterious” G"
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If predestination is true, then freewill could not exist. because God’s will according to Calvinist belief (even today Calvinist) will always trumps man’s will. If God will indeed trumps man’s will, then no matter how strong one wants to believe in God, he will not ascend to heaven for God refuses to allow such to happen. Also Spurgeon is noble in intent that he desires preachers to be active, however if predestination is true then again no point for any kinds of missionaries. If I don’t preach the Gospel to my friends, and no one will, and granted he is predestined for salvation, then either he will learn the faith on his own, or God can supernaturally save my friend, since God wills it.
 
TinaG said:
Hi!

I’m thinking about rejoining this debate, but with certain understandings.

For one thing, John Calvin is not here. You are not debating with John Calvin but with people now alive. I, for one, do not regard that theologian as some sort of pope. I get the idea that people think that if you attack him, you will somehow convert us to Catholicism. It just does not work that way.

For another, one can believe in free will AND predestination. The “Calvinists” I know affirm both, as a mystery. They reject roboticism as hyperCalvinism. See monergism.com/directory/link_category/Bad-Theology/HyperCalvinism/. for your information, education and inspiration.

You are spending a lot of time attacking hyperCalvinism, not the real deal.

-Tina “Also Somewhat Mysterious” G"
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Thanks, Tina, and I’m sure there’s much truth in what you say. But the main discussion has been about free will vs none, with the no free will side being defended quite adamantly. The CC has long recognized the conflict or tension between human free will and God’s sovereignty and has also considered it to be a mystery that can’t be perfectly resolved.
 
fhansen said:
Thanks, Tina, and I’m sure there’s much truth in what you say. But the main discussion, has been about free will vs none, with the no free will side being defended quite adamantly. The CC has long recognized the conflict or tension between human free will and God’s sovereignty and has also considered it to be a mystery that can’t be perfectly resolved.
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I affirm that there is both free will and predestination, and that it is a mystery, like a photon is both a particle and a wave. Sometimes it acts one way, sometimes another. A Calvinist pastor used to say “pray as if God is sovereign, act as if it is all up to you” as a means of actually living out the mystery.

I thought the question of the topic was eternal security, and whether one can lose one’s salvation. But then I haven’t read the whole thread:blush:.

-Tina “It’s a Lot to Read:blush:” G
 
TinaG said:
I affirm that there is both free will and predestination, and that it is a mystery, like a photon is both a particle and a wave. Sometimes it acts one way, sometimes another. A Calvinist pastor used to say **“pray as if God is sovereign, act as if it is all up to you” **as a means of actually living out the mystery.

I thought the question of the topic was eternal security, and whether one can lose one’s salvation. But then I haven’t read the whole thread:blush:.

-Tina “It’s a Lot to Read:blush:” G
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I like that bolded part and, in practice, I think that’s the way most of us live it out anyway-it’s sort of intuitive. You’re right, eternal security is not necessarily related to free will unless someone believes the will is overridden or ignored by God in order to save and perhaps ensure final perseverance. In any case Catholics believe salvation is generally something to be worked out, and worked out synergistically, rather than a one-time event regardless of whether it’s synergistic or monergistic.
 
TinaG said:
Hi!

I’m thinking about rejoining this debate, but with certain understandings.

For one thing, John Calvin is not here. You are not debating with John Calvin but with people now alive. I, for one, do not regard that theologian as some sort of pope. I get the idea that people think that if you attack him, you will somehow convert us to Catholicism. It just does not work that way.

For another, one can believe in free will AND predestination. The “Calvinists” I know affirm both, as a mystery. They reject roboticism as hyperCalvinism. See monergism.com/directory/link_category/Bad-Theology/HyperCalvinism/. for your information, education and inspiration.

You are spending a lot of time attacking hyperCalvinism, not the real deal.

-Tina “Also Somewhat Mysterious” G"
Click to expand...
Tina,
this is not a debate forum. The purpose of this forum is for Catholics to explain what the church teaches on a variety of topics. We’d be more than happy to answer your questions on why we believe what we believe…

If you want to explain what YOU believe and have Catholics explain where it deviates from Catholic teaching and why, we can do that for you too, if you prefer.
 
paul_c said:
Tina,
this is not a debate forum. The purpose of this forum is for Catholics to explain what the church teaches on a variety of topics. We’d be more than happy to answer your questions on why we believe what we believe…

If you want to explain what YOU believe and have Catholics explain where it deviates from Catholic teaching and why, we can do that for you too, if you prefer.
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Sorry, you are in error here. This IS a debate forum. See this regarding the purpose of this Forum:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=164574

Also, apparently, you feel free to attack straw-man Protestant beliefs but object if someone says, “hey, wait a minute…”

And I thought I WAS explaining where I was coming from, and you could explain how it differed from Catholic teaching.

-Tina “Hey, Wait a Minute…” G
 
TinaG said:
I affirm that there is both free will and predestination, and that it is a mystery, like a photon is both a particle and a wave. Sometimes it acts one way, sometimes another. A Calvinist pastor used to say “pray as if God is sovereign, act as if it is all up to you” as a means of actually living out the mystery.

I thought the question of the topic was eternal security, and whether one can lose one’s salvation. But then I haven’t read the whole thread:blush:.

-Tina “It’s a Lot to Read:blush:” G
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I think a lot of times, the issues are driven by different understanding of terms.

For instance, If predestination means that God knew before time which men would be attain to eternal life and which ones would be condemned to hell, then Catholics would agree. Afterall, God can see all time at once, since he lives outside of time so he knows what we will choose to do. In this view, God know the outcome but still allows man to make his own decisions.

If on the other hand, predestination means that God determined that certain men would be condemned before they were born, then Catholics would strongly dissent because this would deny free will and make God a tyrant.

The word salvation is used in different ways as well. Sometimes people use the words saved or salvation to indicate that a person is in the state of grace. Catholics believe that this situation occurs at baptism and that a person who dies in the state of grace will go to heaven. The Catholic church teaches that a person who sins mortally falls from grace and is no longer saved. But that through the sacrament of reconciliation, grace can be restored and a person can be saved again.

Often we hear that once Jesus gives grace, he would never take it back. But that’s not the way we think about it. the question is not whether Jesus would take it away. The question is whether we can lose it or refuse to take it in the first place.
 
paul_c said:
I think a lot of times, the issues are driven by different understanding of terms.
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Your whole post will take some time to respond to, and that over several posts, and I don’t have time to do it all right now.

I agree there are different understandings of terms. We are discussing this in English based on theology done in Latin based on Greek, Hebrew and Chaldee texts, and we are discussing things that are beyond human comprehension, and from different theological and historical perspectives. We also use terms misleadingly - I understand that Catholics use the term “justification” where Protestants use the terms “justification and sanctification”; there is no end of misleading each other on these things!

Extreme patience is called for in just hearing out the other side. I have been surprised that Catholics, once you get past the language barrier, are in agreement with me on a number of issues. But at first glance things are not so.

-Tina “Gotta Go!”
 
Lisa44 said:
Sig is under suspension. So we’ll have to wait until he returns.😦

🍿 I guess I’ll get fat eating popcorn until that time.😃
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He had an amazing 8 day run on this thread: 330 posts. hard to keep up with that kind of intensity. I knew we would hit radio silence at some point. Didn’t know that it would be moderator induced
 
fhansen said:
Yeah, it sure seems like the will would have to be involved according to those verses. If not, I wonder why the writers even bothered to offer them?
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Yes fhansen ! But the best proof,I really believe is in Blessed Mary’s yes, and the reason we should honor Her above all creatures. Jesus after all carries Her DNA, two hearts connected.

God Bless
 
paul_c said:
For instance, If predestination means that God knew before time which men would be attain to eternal life and which ones would be condemned to hell, then Catholics would agree. Afterall, God can see all time at once, since he lives outside of time so he knows what we will choose to do. In this view, God know the outcome but still allows man to make his own decisions.

If on the other hand, predestination means that God determined that certain men would be condemned before they were born, then Catholics would strongly dissent because this would deny free will and make God a tyrant.
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I think you may be selling the Catholic Church’s position on predestination short.

See
vivacatholic.wordpress.com/2007/08/12/predestination-in-catholicism/

which states that “unconditional election” is a fully Catholic view.

This is elegantly stated:
stjohn17v20-21.com/predes01.htm

and then there is this:
catechism.cc/articles/predestination-salvation.htm

-Tina “Picky” G
 
paul_c said:
The word salvation is used in different ways as well. Sometimes people use the words saved or salvation to indicate that a person is in the state of grace. Catholics believe that this situation occurs at baptism and that a person who dies in the state of grace will go to heaven. The Catholic church teaches that a person who sins mortally falls from grace and is no longer saved. But that through the sacrament of reconciliation, grace can be restored and a person can be saved again.

Often we hear that once Jesus gives grace, he would never take it back. But that’s not the way we think about it. the question is not whether Jesus would take it away. The question is whether we can lose it or refuse to take it in the first place.
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Being fallen, we will NEVER choose God on our own to begin with. That was what the whole Pelagian thing was about. To Protestant ears you come close to Pelagianism with this. We need prevenient grace to seek God, to ask Him for help, to be willing to change, to be willing to be sanctified. Without grace there is no movement toward God. God has to supply us with the will and the perserverance and the power to make it to heaven. We cannot do it on our own.

So if we “make it to heaven” it is all His action. To Catholic ears I think that probably sounds like spiritual passivity: I can lie around and if God chooses to save me He will. Rather, the act of crying out to God for help and a sense of desperation of one’s own sinfulness are both the results of prevenient grace. Any cooperation we have is Him operating in us to accomplish it.

When one falls, in the Catholic system, one is told to get up again. Likewise in the Reformed system. You can only get up by the grace of God.

-Tina “Musing” G
 
Hi, TinaG,

The link you provided only identifies CAF as a internet place for discussion in a charitable manner. The word ‘debate’ is not mentioned. Now, can discussions contain debated topics - done in a charitable manner … I think so, honestly. 🙂

Your previous statement, “pray as if God is sovereign, act as if it is all up to you” … was quite good - actually, totally in line with Catholic theology! 🙂

And, yes, the thread is, OSAS … and sticking with it is probably a good idea… 😃

Now, I have a hunch your Calvinist preachers is on the side of OSAS … so, would you kindly explain how he reconciles this along with the ‘…act as if it is all up to you…’ part?

Thanks

God bless
TinaG said:
Sorry, you are in error here. This IS a debate forum. See this regarding the purpose of this Forum:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=164574

Also, apparently, you feel free to attack straw-man Protestant beliefs but object if someone says, “hey, wait a minute…”

And I thought I WAS explaining where I was coming from, and you could explain how it differed from Catholic teaching.

-Tina “Hey, Wait a Minute…” G
Click to expand...
 
Hi, Unityof Trinity,

You know, St. Augustine believed in predestination AND FREE WILL - something that Calvin could not handle. Here are a couple of links that may be helpful:

newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

romancatholicism.org/jansenism/predestination-ignorance.htm

I think the basic problem is that Calvin hijacked Augustine’s terms and then redefined them to fit with his revolt against the Catholic Church. What I think Calvin really meant was PRE-DETERMINED as opposed to predestined.

Look at what is being said. According to Calvin, from all eternity, God made souls that He would damn - no matter what they did! And, He also made souls who would be ‘The Elect’ no matter what they did. This is because they could not do anything because they simply lacked the capacity - they lacked the free will to make a choice for or against God. While Calvin (along with everyone else) can say that God can do what He wants - acting in such a manner as Calvin has described creates an arbitrary god with no sense of justice. Besides removing free will - we have this question of how Grace is to work in someone who is already pre-determined for damnation.

I think pre-determination is a more valid term and catches the sound and fury that Calvin wanted to convey.

God bless
UnityofTrinity said:
Also the doctrine of predestination poses a problem. If God predestines certain to be saved, and Scripture tells us God’s plan is perfect, then what is the point of evangelism? What is the point for missionaries? Of matyrs who sacrificed their lives for the purpose of spreading the Gospel? Since God predestines for some to be saved, regardless of what we do, those people will always be saved, naturally or supernaturally. There is no point for matyrdom, for Stephen to be stoned, Peter to be crucified upside down, for Paul to be executed.
Click to expand...
 
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