- Status
O
Odell
Guest
No I’m pretty sure that evangelicals believe sanctification comes after justification in the life of a believer.
Now Sig one who is being set apart for God and grows in holiness and righteousness; are they the sheep you are referring to that have eternal life?
Sounds like it to me. Now if this is the case Sig you need to address this passage again.
Heb 10:
*29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
This warning is to those whom you say have been set apart unto God and grow in holiness and righteousness (their sheep)
So it looks to me that sheep can stray and will have a worse punishment than judgment and flaming fire that consumed the adversaries.
S
Sig
Guest
**1 Jn 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin…he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
1 Jn 5:18
We know that whoever is born of God does not sin…**Have you ever been to confession to confess your sins, PR?
If so, you are not a follower of Jesus, and you are not born again. You never have been. You can’t be, ever. You sin.
Bummer, eh?
P
PRmerger
Guest
This is, again, a non-sequitur, Sig.
I love those verses you quoted above! However, it has nothing to do with stray sheep.
Do you think that stray means “continuously hears and follows”? :coffeeread:
Is there anyone here who believes that? TinaG? My honest and forthright friend–do you also maintain that “stray” means “continuously hears and follows”?
Bummer, eh?
S
Sig
Guest
So do I, Odell, so obviously there’s some confusion on your part as to what I believe, and some confusion on my part as to what you were referring earlier.
Yes.
Perhaps it’s you who needs to go back and re-read what I’ve said. I’ve addressed it.
I’ve told you, Odell, the “he was sanctified…” refers to Jesus, who was set apart to God to do God’s will (Jn 17:19; cf 4:34; 5:19; 6:38: 7:16; 9:4). It can’t be unbelievers, because they are not sanctified, and it can’t be believers because they will never perish (Jn 10:28), and as the writer says in v39, they ***“are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.” ***This warning is to those whom you say have been set apart unto God and grow in holiness and righteousness (their sheep)
So it looks to me that sheep can stray and will have a worse punishment than judgment and flaming fire that consumed the adversaries.
You need to read more carefully, Odell.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Incidentally, I happened to be reading the Scriptures for today and came upon this:1 Jn 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin…he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
1 Jn 5:18
We know that whoever is born of God does not sin…Have you ever been to confession to confess your sins, PR?
If so, you are not a follower of Jesus, and you are not born again. You never have been. You can’t be, ever. You sin.
Bummer, eh?
So they made signs, asking his father what he wished him to be called.
He asked for a tablet and wrote, “John is his name,”
and all were amazed.
Immediately his mouth was opened, his tongue freed,
and he spoke blessing God.
It appears that when Zechariah, of his own free will, decided to COOPERATE with God’s will he was then given freedom to speak again.
If Zechariah had decided, of his own free will to write, “His name shall be Zechariah”, in opposition to the will of God, there is no doubt that he would have remained mute, no?
Thus, it is only when we COOPERATE with God’s will that we are saved. If someone, of his own free will, decides to be obdurate, well, then, he remains mute (this is a metaphor, Sig.)
M
Miriam1947
Guest
Wow, you don’t sin ever? In any way no matter how small?1 Jn 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin…he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
1 Jn 5:18
We know that whoever is born of God does not sin…Have you ever been to confession to confess your sins, PR?
If so, you are not a follower of Jesus, and you are not born again. You never have been. You can’t be, ever. You sin.
Bummer, eh?
I never thought that in my lifetime that I would meet a real life saint. /
S
Sig
Guest
**1 Jn 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin…he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
1 Jn 5:18
We know that whoever is born of God does not sin…**
Stop avoiding my question: Have you ever been to confession to confess your sins, PR?
If so, you are not a follower of Jesus, and you are not born again. You never have been. You can’t be, ever. You sin.
Bummer, eh?
I guess it’s time again to remind you that you, as a Catholic, are required to believe de fide, that God has predestined some to heaven. IOW, because God has given them the gift of perseverance, they will not fail to get there. If that isn’t OSAS, then what is it?
Also, that’s Calvin’s doctrine of eternal security as well: God gives the believer the gift of perseverance.
Nope.
Why?
S
Sig
Guest
Where have I said that, love?Wow, you don’t sin ever? In any way no matter how small?
You need to learn to read more carefully.
S
Sig
Guest
And no reasonable Catholic, according to 1 Jn 3:9 and 1 Jn 5:18, can claim to be a born again follower of Jesus Christ, because THEY SIN.
I mean, their Church even has a sacrament of confession of sin.
That’s some :whacky: messed up logic if a Catholic who sins can profess to be a born again follower of Jesus in light of the statements of 1 Jn 3:9, and 5:18.
Bummer eh? Quite the conundrum…
No? Yes…
S
Sig
Guest
And you continue to avoid answering the question I asked you in post #323.Incidentally, I happened to be reading the Scriptures for today and came upon this:
So they made signs, asking his father what he wished him to be called.
He asked for a tablet and wrote, “John is his name,”
and all were amazed.
Immediately his mouth was opened, his tongue freed,
and he spoke blessing God.
It appears that when Zechariah, of his own free will, decided to COOPERATE with God’s will he was then given freedom to speak again.
If Zechariah had decided, of his own free will to write, “His name shall be Zechariah”, in opposition to the will of God, there is no doubt that he would have remained mute, no?
Thus, it is only when we COOPERATE with God’s will that we are saved. If someone, of his own free will, decides to be obdurate, well, then, he remains mute (this is a metaphor, Sig.)
How long will you continue to avoid it?
T
TinaG
Guest
newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm#article7 for one. Or is Aquinas insufficiently Catholic to be a primary source?Could you please cite the source for this, Sig (primary, of course), so that we may see this in context? Thanks.
That whole section (His question 23) is interesting in light of the current thread. It has some ins and outs that have not been explored. Some Catholics on this thread, in their zeal to defend Catholicism, appear to be calling STA’s views heretical and I suspect they are veering close to blasphemy in some of their statements about a “God who would do such and such is (fill in the blank, such as capricious).”
-Tina “Not St. Thomas Aquinas, if you were wondering” G
L
Lisa44
Guest
I don’t understand this question. Would you rephrase the question in the context of a specific passage? Or not, if this was a rhetorical question.
T
TinaG
Guest
Me? Like a land-war in Asia, this is one I want to stay out of. But I am forced into it against my will.
I regard myself as a one-person sin factory, continually generating sin on so many levels that I would, if Catholic, have to live in a confessional and have priests tag-teaming me just to keep up with it. ‘If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness’ - one of my favorite verses. If I were Catholic I would be popping in and out of grace like a strobe light. I prefer forensic justification - the pronouncement, by God, that I am clean and just in His sight, legally declared and Him acting on that word as He sanctifies me.What particularly bothers me regarding this thread is that the Catholics seem to be saying they are not saved by faith but by their free will. Perhaps that is an overemphasis to combat what they view as errors on the other side? Salvation is not a survival of the fittest, a Darwinian winnowing of the elect so only the toughest make it. I suspect some of what I am hearing is so that you hope to boast, or do boast, on how great you are that you chose God. Yet Jesus said “You did not choose me - I chose you.”
Regarding the “stray sheep” thing, Christ came to seek and save that which is lost. A good shepherd does not say “that sheep wandered off. Tough on it.” Instead he goes and rescues that lost sheep and brings it back to the fold- willing or unwilling.
-Tina “More a Sheep Than I Sheepishly Admit” G
S
Sig
Guest
Thanks, Tina, I missed that question from PR.
L
Lisa44
Guest
Now I am confused. Sig are you saying a born again Christian never sins? And if so, would you mind running down a list of what the “sins” are?And no reasonable Catholic, according to 1 Jn 3:9 and 1 Jn 5:18, can claim to be a born again follower of Jesus Christ, because THEY SIN.
I mean, their Church even has a sacrament of confession of sin.
That’s some :whacky: messed up logic if a Catholic who sins can profess to be a born again follower of Jesus in light of the statements of 1 Jn 3:9, and 5:18.
Bummer eh? Quite the conundrum…
O
Odell
Guest
God only wills their destruction as a result permitting them to sin.
As I have said before God neither wills evil to be done, nor wills it not to be done, but wills to permit evil to be done; and this is a good.
We also know as you would agree that without Gods decrees in eternity noting would take place in time. So Gods choice to reprobate logically precedes a persons demerits, for demerits would not exist without Gods divine permission. God permits sin, and punishes sin by abandoning man and leaving him without grace ALL within his eternal decree.
Because God wills punishment while willing to permit sin there is no change in God because God is pure act. And implies no change in God.
Reprobation is withholding grace only after sin but willed while willing the permission. This withholding of grace is not due to man, and is not the privation. Of a good due to him (which would be evil) because God does not owe grace to any man, he does not offend justice by withholding it, so long as He deprives nobody his due.
No God wills all to be saved. Because the number is fixed does not mean some are elected for hell. God gives all sufficient grace.
Gods will to save all men and His divine election to save some men are both true. Christ death was sufficient for all it efficacious for some. God has an antecedent will and a consequent will. God wills to preserve free will more than He wills to save all.
In Gods antecedent will, God wills to save all men (consistent with scripture). In His consequent will, God wills to save only the elect and permit the non elect to be damned (also consistent wih scripture) when God considers each individual absolutely without regard to the totality of His predestination plan, He antecedently wills the person salvation.
For example that a should live is a good; and a man should be killed is an evil, absolutely considered. But in a particular case we add that a man is a murderer or dangerous to society, to kill him is a good; that he lives is an evil. Hence it may be said of a judge, that antecedently he wills all men to live; bit consequently wills the murder to be hanged… Hence we will a thing simply as we will it when all particular circumstances considered; and that is what is meant by willing consequently.
Thus the judge does not evaluate the murder as an individual absolutely rather he judges the murdere in light of all the people that he has killed and could continue to kill, if he were not hanged. In other words the judge considers his decision in light of the effect on the whole. This helps us understand predestination. Even thoguh humans respond to goodness, and God actually creates the good was, God wills His decrees to produce the best goodness as a whole, not in individual parts.
This is why we believe in sufficent grace. If not than God calling people to repent of their sins would be pointless.
T
TinaG
Guest
Do you really believe that God will actively assist you in sinning? Are you really claiming that the Holy Spirit will empower you to sin? To me that is wandering near blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. When He leads and empowers, it is ALWAYS so we can better follow Christ.
-Tina “Sometimes Even I am Led by God!” G
S
Sig
Guest
I’m trying to help PRmerger understand the Greek present tense. She doesn’t get it yet. It’s a lesson for her. Stay tuned.
L
Lisa44
Guest
Tina, amiga, I have asked you twice to clarify for me what your position is on free will and both times you did not answer. I’m asking you again, what is your position on free will?Me? Like a land-war in Asia, this is one I want to stay out of. But I am forced into it against my will.
What particularly bothers me regarding this thread is that the Catholics seem to be saying they are not saved by faith but by their free will. Perhaps that is an overemphasis to combat what they view as errors on the other side? Salvation is not a survival of the fittest, a Darwinian winnowing of the elect so only the toughest make it. I suspect some of what I am hearing is so that you hope to boast, or do boast, on how great you are that you chose God. Yet Jesus said “You did not choose me - I chose you.”
Regarding the “stray sheep” thing, Christ came to seek and save that which is lost. A good shepherd does not say “that sheep wandered off. Tough on it.” Instead he goes and rescues that lost sheep and brings it back to the fold- willing or unwilling.
-Tina “More a Sheep Than I Sheepishly Admit” G
No Catholic is saying that. For heaven’s sake Tina.
Canon 3.
If anyone says that without the predisposing inspiration of the Holy Ghost[111] and without His help, man can believe, hope, love or be repentant as he ought,[112] so that the grace of justification may be bestowed upon him, let him be anathema.
- Status