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paul_c
Guest
This is saying that if God gives you special help to be justified, you will persevere. This is positive election, which is supported by the church. Reprobation is denied.
- Status
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TinaG
Guest
Really? I would like to see a link to someone saying that, out of curiosity. I think those are few and far between. That is certainly NOT anything I have ever heard preached or said, and if someone said that to me I would ask them what planet they were from.
-Tina “Now Wondering What Planet this Is ANYWAY” G
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, TinaG,
This is an important area - and, you seemed to have skimmed right over it.
Paul C said: Because it takes effort and commitment to stay in the state of grace and many don’t want to expend that effort.
He did not say tht effort and commitment are all that is needed.
Human effort and commitment - yes - free will would be like the light switch in your home. The Power Company can have a powerfuld dam, major generators, transformers, massive transmission lines leading to the distribution center that feeds electricity to your home. But, if you do not turn on the switch - you stay in the dark. There can be no doubt that the Power Company has a lot of land, labor and capitol invested to get electricity out to everyone but we must do something to receive the Power. We must will to not only receive God’s Grace but to willfully act to follow God’s Will - as His instrument. So, Grace and Human effort are necessary for salvation to become effective in each of our lives.
The “…smoldering wick…” is a reference to the humility and meekness of Christ.the Messiah and can be found in:
Isa 42:3
Matthew 12:20
Acts 17:11
I think you are correct - the Bible never says anything about Free Will. So, tell me … when Adam and Eve sinned - knowing full well what the One Commandment God had given to them and that they were freely going against God’s Will … what faculty did they use to make that choice (obeying or disobeying God)?
The mere absence of a term does not mean that the concept is not present. For example, the Bible never uses the term “Trinity” - yet we believe that that there are Three Persons in One God.
I do not think Paul was equating predestined with predetermined. Man can freely chose to do good and avoid evil - and man needs God Grace to make this choice. Calvin’s idea is that God has damned some souls and there is nothing that they can do about this. (It would be unjust of God to do such a thing.) OSAS makes God into a creator of evil - Hell exists and He is sending souls who could not be responsible for their acts to Hell. We will all find out on the Last Day what happened to Luther … along with everyone else!
God bless
I don’t understand how this phrase or its biblical listings fit into this OSAS thread. Please clarify what it is you mean.
This is an important area - and, you seemed to have skimmed right over it.
Paul C said: Because it takes effort and commitment to stay in the state of grace and many don’t want to expend that effort.
He did not say tht effort and commitment are all that is needed.
Human effort and commitment - yes - free will would be like the light switch in your home. The Power Company can have a powerfuld dam, major generators, transformers, massive transmission lines leading to the distribution center that feeds electricity to your home. But, if you do not turn on the switch - you stay in the dark. There can be no doubt that the Power Company has a lot of land, labor and capitol invested to get electricity out to everyone but we must do something to receive the Power. We must will to not only receive God’s Grace but to willfully act to follow God’s Will - as His instrument. So, Grace and Human effort are necessary for salvation to become effective in each of our lives.
The “…smoldering wick…” is a reference to the humility and meekness of Christ.the Messiah and can be found in:
Isa 42:3
Matthew 12:20
Acts 17:11
I think you are correct - the Bible never says anything about Free Will. So, tell me … when Adam and Eve sinned - knowing full well what the One Commandment God had given to them and that they were freely going against God’s Will … what faculty did they use to make that choice (obeying or disobeying God)?
The mere absence of a term does not mean that the concept is not present. For example, the Bible never uses the term “Trinity” - yet we believe that that there are Three Persons in One God.
I do not think Paul was equating predestined with predetermined. Man can freely chose to do good and avoid evil - and man needs God Grace to make this choice. Calvin’s idea is that God has damned some souls and there is nothing that they can do about this. (It would be unjust of God to do such a thing.) OSAS makes God into a creator of evil - Hell exists and He is sending souls who could not be responsible for their acts to Hell. We will all find out on the Last Day what happened to Luther … along with everyone else!
God bless
I don’t understand how this phrase or its biblical listings fit into this OSAS thread. Please clarify what it is you mean.
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, Paul C
Maybe this material from the CCC would be helpful in getting a grasp on Free Will. Here is a copied and pasted version…
God bless
**PART THREE
LIFE IN CHRIST
SECTION ONE
MAN’S VOCATION LIFE IN THE SPIRIT
CHAPTER ONE
THE DIGNITY OF THE HUMAN PERSON
ARTICLE 3
MAN’S FREEDOM
1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."26
Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.27
I. FREEDOM AND RESPONSIBILITY
1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.
1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.
1733 The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. The choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to "the slavery of sin."28
1734 Freedom makes man responsible for his acts to the extent that they are voluntary. Progress in virtue, knowledge of the good, and ascesis enhance the mastery of the will over its acts.
1735 Imputability and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors.
1736 Every act directly willed is imputable to its author:
Thus the Lord asked Eve after the sin in the garden: "What is this that you have done?"29 He asked Cain the same question.30 The prophet Nathan questioned David in the same way after he committed adultery with the wife of Uriah and had him murdered.31
An action can be indirectly voluntary when it results from negligence regarding something one should have known or done: for example, an accident arising from ignorance of traffic laws.
1737 An effect can be tolerated without being willed by its agent; for instance, a mother’s exhaustion from tending her sick child. A bad effect is not imputable if it was not willed either as an end or as a means of an action, e.g., a death a person incurs in aiding someone in danger. For a bad effect to be imputable it must be foreseeable and the agent must have the possibility of avoiding it, as in the case of manslaughter caused by a drunken driver.
1738 Freedom is exercised in relationships between human beings. Every human person, created in the image of God, has the natural right to be recognized as a free and responsible being. All owe to each other this duty of respect. The right to the exercise of freedom, especially in moral and religious matters, is an inalienable requirement of the dignity of the human person. This right must be recognized and protected by civil authority within the limits of the common good and public order.32
II. HUMAN FREEDOM IN THE ECONOMY OF SALVATION
1739 Freedom and sin. Man’s freedom is limited and fallible. In fact, man failed. He freely sinned. By refusing God’s plan of love, he deceived himself and became a slave to sin. This first alienation engendered a multitude of others. From its outset, human history attests the wretchedness and oppression born of the human heart in consequence of the abuse of freedom.
1740 Threats to freedom. The exercise of freedom does not imply a right to say or do everything. It is false to maintain that man, “the subject of this freedom,” is "an individual who is fully self-sufficient and whose finality is the satisfaction of his own interests in the enjoyment of earthly goods."33 Moreover, the economic, social, political, and cultural conditions that are needed for a just exercise of freedom are too often disregarded or violated. Such situations of blindness and injustice injure the moral life and involve the strong as well as the weak in the temptation to sin against charity. By deviating from the moral law man violates his own freedom, becomes imprisoned within himself, disrupts neighborly fellowship, and rebels against divine truth.
1741 Liberation and salvation. By his glorious Cross Christ has won salvation for all men. He redeemed them from the sin that held them in bondage. "For freedom Christ has set us free."34 In him we have communion with the "truth that makes us free."35 The Holy Spirit has been given to us and, as the Apostle teaches, "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."36 Already we glory in the "liberty of the children of God."37
1742 Freedom and grace. The grace of Christ is not in the slightest way a rival of our freedom when this freedom accords with the sense of the true and the good that God has put in the human heart. On the contrary, as Christian experience attests especially in prayer, the more docile we are to the promptings of grace, the more we grow in inner freedom and confidence during trials, such as those we face in the pressures and constraints of the outer world. **
Maybe this material from the CCC would be helpful in getting a grasp on Free Will. Here is a copied and pasted version…
God bless
**PART THREE
LIFE IN CHRIST
SECTION ONE
MAN’S VOCATION LIFE IN THE SPIRIT
CHAPTER ONE
THE DIGNITY OF THE HUMAN PERSON
ARTICLE 3
MAN’S FREEDOM
1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."26
Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.27
I. FREEDOM AND RESPONSIBILITY
1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.
1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.
1733 The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. The choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to "the slavery of sin."28
1734 Freedom makes man responsible for his acts to the extent that they are voluntary. Progress in virtue, knowledge of the good, and ascesis enhance the mastery of the will over its acts.
1735 Imputability and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors.
1736 Every act directly willed is imputable to its author:
Thus the Lord asked Eve after the sin in the garden: "What is this that you have done?"29 He asked Cain the same question.30 The prophet Nathan questioned David in the same way after he committed adultery with the wife of Uriah and had him murdered.31
An action can be indirectly voluntary when it results from negligence regarding something one should have known or done: for example, an accident arising from ignorance of traffic laws.
1737 An effect can be tolerated without being willed by its agent; for instance, a mother’s exhaustion from tending her sick child. A bad effect is not imputable if it was not willed either as an end or as a means of an action, e.g., a death a person incurs in aiding someone in danger. For a bad effect to be imputable it must be foreseeable and the agent must have the possibility of avoiding it, as in the case of manslaughter caused by a drunken driver.
1738 Freedom is exercised in relationships between human beings. Every human person, created in the image of God, has the natural right to be recognized as a free and responsible being. All owe to each other this duty of respect. The right to the exercise of freedom, especially in moral and religious matters, is an inalienable requirement of the dignity of the human person. This right must be recognized and protected by civil authority within the limits of the common good and public order.32
II. HUMAN FREEDOM IN THE ECONOMY OF SALVATION
1739 Freedom and sin. Man’s freedom is limited and fallible. In fact, man failed. He freely sinned. By refusing God’s plan of love, he deceived himself and became a slave to sin. This first alienation engendered a multitude of others. From its outset, human history attests the wretchedness and oppression born of the human heart in consequence of the abuse of freedom.
1740 Threats to freedom. The exercise of freedom does not imply a right to say or do everything. It is false to maintain that man, “the subject of this freedom,” is "an individual who is fully self-sufficient and whose finality is the satisfaction of his own interests in the enjoyment of earthly goods."33 Moreover, the economic, social, political, and cultural conditions that are needed for a just exercise of freedom are too often disregarded or violated. Such situations of blindness and injustice injure the moral life and involve the strong as well as the weak in the temptation to sin against charity. By deviating from the moral law man violates his own freedom, becomes imprisoned within himself, disrupts neighborly fellowship, and rebels against divine truth.
1741 Liberation and salvation. By his glorious Cross Christ has won salvation for all men. He redeemed them from the sin that held them in bondage. "For freedom Christ has set us free."34 In him we have communion with the "truth that makes us free."35 The Holy Spirit has been given to us and, as the Apostle teaches, "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."36 Already we glory in the "liberty of the children of God."37
1742 Freedom and grace. The grace of Christ is not in the slightest way a rival of our freedom when this freedom accords with the sense of the true and the good that God has put in the human heart. On the contrary, as Christian experience attests especially in prayer, the more docile we are to the promptings of grace, the more we grow in inner freedom and confidence during trials, such as those we face in the pressures and constraints of the outer world. **
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paul_c
Guest
Just peruse a few of the osas threads. they are very common views, unfortunately
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PRmerger
Guest
Would this count: if a poster here said that a “saved” person could commit murder and still enter heaven (even unrepentant)?
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pablope
Guest
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pablope
Guest
How about #4 next…this piqued my interest…
- We cannot confuse Election with being “Born Again” :
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tqualey
Guest
Now, hang on a minute there Pablope…
There you go, bringing up that 'Free Will" thing again - obviously you must be deficient in this area because bringing this us again and again must mean you have a compulsion to remind others of something that does not exist.
Of course, they freely write back (the Mod takes a dim view of people being held hostage and forced to write posts in violation of the free will they claim they do not have!) … and then there are those of us who freely respond. I don’t know about you … I just do not know what I would do without my free will …
While a lot of folks choose poorly - the saints of God have quite a track record on making usually good decisions. Some got off to a rocky start, some got a bit rocky towards the end of their lives … but, all finished as Friends of God - and that is a goal we all should want.
Yes, I must admit - it really is Free Will (and of course how we use it - and some really do kill theirs!) that must be acknowledged. Hmmmmmmmm maybe if hte members of the OSAS crowd would band together - support one another … and then someone start the ball rollins with a statement like, “I made a conscious choice last night…I studied for this morning’s test. I made the second highest grade in class…so I guess this means that I chose to study and to do well in the test! And I did. So, I guess I do have to agree with Free Will after-all.”
God bless
There you go, bringing up that 'Free Will" thing again - obviously you must be deficient in this area because bringing this us again and again must mean you have a compulsion to remind others of something that does not exist.
Of course, they freely write back (the Mod takes a dim view of people being held hostage and forced to write posts in violation of the free will they claim they do not have!) … and then there are those of us who freely respond. I don’t know about you … I just do not know what I would do without my free will …
While a lot of folks choose poorly - the saints of God have quite a track record on making usually good decisions. Some got off to a rocky start, some got a bit rocky towards the end of their lives … but, all finished as Friends of God - and that is a goal we all should want.
Yes, I must admit - it really is Free Will (and of course how we use it - and some really do kill theirs!) that must be acknowledged. Hmmmmmmmm maybe if hte members of the OSAS crowd would band together - support one another … and then someone start the ball rollins with a statement like, “I made a conscious choice last night…I studied for this morning’s test. I made the second highest grade in class…so I guess this means that I chose to study and to do well in the test! And I did. So, I guess I do have to agree with Free Will after-all.”
God bless
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Lisa44
Guest
Tina, Hi, would you clarify for me because I’m confused. You said you don’t think “free will” is scriptural, and yet you said you found nothing wrong with canon 5?
Why?
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Lisa44
Guest
Paul, your parallels do not work when it comes to God. Man estimates or guesses what the outcome of events will be based on odds. God has perfect vision of everything, does he not? God doesn’t guess what will be the outcome, he KNOWS.
And so we go around in circles because what I am asking people who support this position of the compatibility of free will with God’s omniscience is - *how *is that possible? Because if you assert that a man can do something other than what God knows he will do then either you are calling God a liar, or you are saying that God doesn’t perfectly know the future.
There is no distinction between God’s knowing and his forcing, unless you can explain what that distinction is.
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Lisa44
Guest
May I have some clarification please. Canon 22 says in the second half, that justified man with the help of God cannot not persevere.
Did you not say above that man could reject the help of God?
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pablope
Guest
Hi, Lisa…I am not responding for PaulC…this one piqued my interest…maybe think about this some more…back in post 12 and 90…
*God foresees the free activity of a man precisely as that individual is willing to shape it, predestination is not predetermination of the human will. *
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pablope
Guest
Now, hang on a minute there Pablope…
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, Pablope,
Now, this is just a guess on my part… but, I am thinking that St. Augustine was widely known to the marority of those leading the Protestant Revolt. Knowing about this great saint of God does not mean they understood him. This is evidenced by the fact that Calvin & Co denied Free Will while Augustine upheld it. Augustine, however used the term: “Predestined” but defined it quite differently from what Calvin came up with.
What Calvin was really intending was “Pre-Determined” but did not use that term.
In my mind, it all hinges - not on the isolated the term, but how both men worked with the concept of Free Will. It all pivots from this point.
With Augustine Free Will working with Grace brought a Soul to the Throne of God and Eternal Salvation. And, this was known before the creation of the world.
With Calvin Free Will does not exist - God denies the Grace to those he has Pre-Determined to damn for all Eternity. And, this was known before the creation of the world. What Calvin evades is that the Soul who winds up in Hell - FREELY chose to disobey God’s Commandments, FREELY chose to reject the Grace of God and effectively FREELY chose to not be in the company of God.
Of course this is an incredibly foolish choice to make…and, put in those terms, only an incredible fool would FREELY make such a choice. But, there’s the rub when God gives His creatures the ability of choosing or rejecting Him. There really is no earthly way to understand why someone would choose to be with the biggest fool of all - the Devil - for all eternity. But, this is the poor ending that Christ warned about several times in the Gospels.
God bless
Now, this is just a guess on my part… but, I am thinking that St. Augustine was widely known to the marority of those leading the Protestant Revolt. Knowing about this great saint of God does not mean they understood him. This is evidenced by the fact that Calvin & Co denied Free Will while Augustine upheld it. Augustine, however used the term: “Predestined” but defined it quite differently from what Calvin came up with.
What Calvin was really intending was “Pre-Determined” but did not use that term.
In my mind, it all hinges - not on the isolated the term, but how both men worked with the concept of Free Will. It all pivots from this point.
With Augustine Free Will working with Grace brought a Soul to the Throne of God and Eternal Salvation. And, this was known before the creation of the world.
With Calvin Free Will does not exist - God denies the Grace to those he has Pre-Determined to damn for all Eternity. And, this was known before the creation of the world. What Calvin evades is that the Soul who winds up in Hell - FREELY chose to disobey God’s Commandments, FREELY chose to reject the Grace of God and effectively FREELY chose to not be in the company of God.
Of course this is an incredibly foolish choice to make…and, put in those terms, only an incredible fool would FREELY make such a choice. But, there’s the rub when God gives His creatures the ability of choosing or rejecting Him. There really is no earthly way to understand why someone would choose to be with the biggest fool of all - the Devil - for all eternity. But, this is the poor ending that Christ warned about several times in the Gospels.
God bless
tqualey;8710635:
Hi, Tom…from this: *God foresees the free activity of a man precisely as that individual is willing to shape it, predestination is not predetermination of the human will. *Now, hang on a minute there Pablope…
And your post reminded me of St. Augustine (there he goes again being mentioned)…he spent the first years of his life being merry, being of this world…and one would think, looking at his life then…he was predestined for the netherworld…that this was his destiny.
But then, with the help of the prayers of his mother, St. Monica…he turned around and changed his destiny…his destination…instead of the netherworld…it was to greatness and one of the doctors of the Church…and to sainthood.
He changed his destiny.
That is why I asked TinaG…was it predetermination that Calvin is talking about, and not predestination…of the human will?
God bless also…
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TinaG
Guest
Where did I deny the existence of free will? I said I don’t know that the phrase is found in Scripture. That is different from saying it is unScriptural.
-Tina “Awaiting Your Reply” G
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Lisa44
Guest
I’m sorry, I asked for clarification because I didn’t understand.
In post #93 I copied your original statement and underlined the portion of your statement that I didn’t understand.
So why are you asking me “where did I deny…”… I posted what you wrote and ASKED for you to clarify your position.
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TinaG
Guest
Now I am confused.
What do I need to clarify that I have not clarified? See my last post.
-Tina “Confusion is a Lifestyle Sometimes” G
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fhansen
Guest
Canon 22 is confusing but they were dealing with predestination. It means to say that while God aids those in persevering He never aids anyone not to persevere-“aids” as in hardening ones heart for that purpose, for example.
O
Odell
Guest
The Council of Orange says it well in Canon 18
“That grace is preceded by no merits. A reward is due to good works, if they are performed; but grace, which is not due, precedes that they may be done.”
So when Catholics talk about God rewarding us with eternal life it is not to say that they are done without first being preceded by the grace to do so.
In fact every single act that we perform is preceded by what Thomas would call efficacious grace. I don’t think anyone here disagrees thus far.
We also know eternal beatitude surpasses our natural capacity. We cannot gain eternal life on our own. We need the grace of God. Again I think we all are in agreement.
So how does this grace work or move us? This is the main issue!
Some believe that God gives this grace to whom he knows will respond to this grace. (Arminians) Methodist, Peticostal, Baptist.
If this was true than grace would be dependent on human will that makes God passive when our merits are a product of that grace.
Calvin did get this right.
For Calvin and those who follow him believe that the reprobate are never given sufficient grace for salvation. But Catholics believe the reprobate are offered this grace but reject it.
St Thomas tells us “no one thing is greater than another, if God did not will the greater for one than another.” he also says “the reason why some things are better than others, is that God wills for them a greater good.”
God did not make the universe best as a whole. He did not
Ale each creature best but one better than another. Goes goodness could not be represented by one creature alone, he produced many so what one is lacking can be supplied by another(the excistence of one rose is good but many color roses are better)
Nothing is directed towards an end unless the end already exist.
Now Gods “forknowledge” refers to the special favor He gives to the elect that causes them to freely choose salvation. This favor includes the secondary causes that will bring about his plan of predestination, such as our free will decisions. Something Calvin denied.
Calvinist also contend that God reprobates to show how just He is. But it’s not just if they are not given sufficent grace. But as Calvin would say it is God who is doing the hardening of hearts. In other words if God does not doesn’t consider future merits in granting mercy, then He doesn’t consider future demerits in hardening hearts.
God does not cause the things He hates but rather permits hateful deeds for a greater good. This truth is lost in Calvinism.
How a Catholic reconciles this is that ecause God is unmoved. Is that Gods eternal decree includes both permission to sin and the punishment of sin without regard to future demerits. Another point Calvin missed.
So God does not cause mans sin nor is He determined by mans sin.
So yes God does give efficient grace to some. And man can resist efficient grace but it remains in potency. With sufficent grace mans power remains in potency.
“That grace is preceded by no merits. A reward is due to good works, if they are performed; but grace, which is not due, precedes that they may be done.”
So when Catholics talk about God rewarding us with eternal life it is not to say that they are done without first being preceded by the grace to do so.
In fact every single act that we perform is preceded by what Thomas would call efficacious grace. I don’t think anyone here disagrees thus far.
We also know eternal beatitude surpasses our natural capacity. We cannot gain eternal life on our own. We need the grace of God. Again I think we all are in agreement.
So how does this grace work or move us? This is the main issue!
Some believe that God gives this grace to whom he knows will respond to this grace. (Arminians) Methodist, Peticostal, Baptist.
If this was true than grace would be dependent on human will that makes God passive when our merits are a product of that grace.
Calvin did get this right.
For Calvin and those who follow him believe that the reprobate are never given sufficient grace for salvation. But Catholics believe the reprobate are offered this grace but reject it.
St Thomas tells us “no one thing is greater than another, if God did not will the greater for one than another.” he also says “the reason why some things are better than others, is that God wills for them a greater good.”
God did not make the universe best as a whole. He did not
Ale each creature best but one better than another. Goes goodness could not be represented by one creature alone, he produced many so what one is lacking can be supplied by another(the excistence of one rose is good but many color roses are better)
Nothing is directed towards an end unless the end already exist.
Now Gods “forknowledge” refers to the special favor He gives to the elect that causes them to freely choose salvation. This favor includes the secondary causes that will bring about his plan of predestination, such as our free will decisions. Something Calvin denied.
Calvinist also contend that God reprobates to show how just He is. But it’s not just if they are not given sufficent grace. But as Calvin would say it is God who is doing the hardening of hearts. In other words if God does not doesn’t consider future merits in granting mercy, then He doesn’t consider future demerits in hardening hearts.
God does not cause the things He hates but rather permits hateful deeds for a greater good. This truth is lost in Calvinism.
How a Catholic reconciles this is that ecause God is unmoved. Is that Gods eternal decree includes both permission to sin and the punishment of sin without regard to future demerits. Another point Calvin missed.
So God does not cause mans sin nor is He determined by mans sin.
So yes God does give efficient grace to some. And man can resist efficient grace but it remains in potency. With sufficent grace mans power remains in potency.
- Status