SPLIT: Once Saved Always Saved? (Revisited)

[tqualey]

Hi, Odell,

And, these appearances can go a long way as we see in Matthew 7:21-24

21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,* but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ 23Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you.* Depart from me, you evildoers. 24 “Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock

In this short set of verses, OSAS is again unmasked for the imposter it is. Here we have individuals who were involved in prophecy and exorcism - and, they came up short when judged. We also see that just hearing the word, or even hearing AND believing is not enough - Christ requires us to act (and to act means that we must first use our Free Will to will this so we an begin to accomplish it.)

There are those who only throw dust in the air and claim it is too cloudy to see clearly what is meant by Christ’s statement - and then criticize others for pointing out the way. SAS only leads to self delusion in this life. The results of such misdirection in the next life are far more serious.

God bless

God bless

When we sin willfully are we choosing somthing other than God?

If so choosing to leave God is more than just denying Jesus as Lord. How else would “not ever one who calls me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven.” make any sense? It appears on the outside they have not left.

 

[Lisa44]

First of all I had misread Canon 22, BTW. My mistake. Canon 22 basically means that only with Gods help can man persevere. Without it he’s unable, with it he’s able. It doesn’t mean he must persevere with God’s help. Read it in light of Canons 26 & 27

**CANON XVI.-If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema.

CANON XVII.-If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema.**

…

Right, you are correct. I misunderstood canon 22. It is not saying the person *will *persevere with God’s help, only that we cannot say that a person cannot persevere with God’s help.

Canon 16 is saying that no one can have assurance that they will persevere to the end unless they have some sort of special revelation. (which is separate from the gift of the Holy Spirit I assume).

This canon is quite shocking. I don’t totally understand it because a Catholic who is not in mortal sin is supposed to believe that they will persevere to the end. What does that canon say to Catholics who remain free of mortal sin?

canon 17 Is an affirmation of free will. That people who go to hell do so by the power of their own choices and not because they are predestined for hell. I find that concept difficult. Especially in light of canon 3. If a person cannot believe in God without God’s grace, then those who do not believe never had God’s grace to believe.

.ewtn.com/library/councils/trent6.htm

 

[Odell]

Hi, Odell,

And, these appearances can go a long way as we see in Matthew 7:21-24

21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,* but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ 23Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you.* Depart from me, you evildoers. 24 “Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock

In this short set of verses, OSAS is again unmasked for the imposter it is. Here we have individuals who were involved in prophecy and exorcism - and, they came up short when judged. We also see that just hearing the word, or even hearing AND believing is not enough - Christ requires us to act (and to act means that we must first use our Free Will to will this so we an begin to accomplish it.)

There are those who only throw dust in the air and claim it is too cloudy to see clearly what is meant by Christ’s statement - and then criticize others for pointing out the way. SAS only leads to self delusion in this life. The results of such misdirection in the next life are far more serious.

God bless

God bless

 

[tqualey]

Hi, TinaG,

That sounds like Catholic doctrine to me…

I’m sorry - I guess I missed it. I am glad you agree that we all have a Free Will…

And, you are so right - we must use our Free Will to cooperate with God’s Grace - sort or like the light switch in our home - all that electrical power being generated and just humming through the wires … won’t turn on any light unless we choose to turn on the switch. God is prompting us to ‘turn on the switch’ but we can chose to be negative with God and tell Him, “No!” If we die in that state of negativity (serious sin) we get our wish and spend all eternity away from God.

So, does this mean that you have had second thoughts on Calvin’s view of OSAS?

Hearing about the saved being saved has always struck me as odd. Really. To my way of thinking it is like saying, “The red car in the garage was known by God from all eternity to be red - and there it is: just as red as God thought!” One can only say this with the car sitting in the garage. One can only know one is saved when they are in God’s Presence… but, you do not have this experience until you die and are judged worthy. Saying anything prior to this event (our own death) is simply premature. While we would all like to have the ‘assurance’ that Calvin sought - that is not the way God designed our Salvation Plan.

But, I must tell you a funny story… well, at least funny to me… Virtually all of my readings on Calvin have given me the mental picture of a rather dour, bearded man, sitting in a dimly lighted corner pre-occupied with predestination and worried about the God he created in his image would simply damn him to hell - for no particular reason. Just a guy with what appears to be a lot of depression. Ah, but he was born into a Catholic family - and he was baptized as an infant. Calvin dug in his heels defending infant baptism - unlike many others in the Revolt - and he said it was God’s Will. reformedtheology.ca/baptism.html Well, I had not known about his defense of infant baptism before today, and was quite impressed with him on this item. There are those who claim to follow Calvin’s teachings (e.g., Baptists) but break with him on this point. This is part of the on-going splintering that continues to go on even as we speak.

God bless

How many times must I say I agree that free will exists? Sheesh!

If we cooperate with God, we do it not on our own power but by His grace. Our unassisted will will always choose away from God.

-Tina “Not on long today” G

 

[Sig]

When we sin willfully are we choosing somthing other than God?

If so choosing to leave God is more than just denying Jesus as Lord. How else would “not ever one who calls me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven.” make any sense? It appears on the outside they have not left.

Odell, please.

The conditional statement is conditioned upon receiving a knowledge of the truth. Anyone who has heard the Gospel has received a knowledge of the truth, and if they reject that truth they’re doomed.

The description of those described in the passage as willfully sinning are, adversaries of God who trample the Son of God underfoot and insult the Holy Spirit Those are hardly descriptions of believers, who are described, in part as, adopted sons of God, beloved by God, children of God by the will of God, overcomers, conquerors, sealed by the Spirit.

Again, v39, believers are not those who return to perdition, but those who continue in faith to the saving of the soul. The just shall live BY FAITH, Heb 10:38.

 

[onenow1]

I always think of that question not in term’s of can one choose to leave, but will one choose to leave.

My conclusion concerning that is, no, they will not, not if they’re truly saved.

Hi,Sig, St. Paul did not seem to think so, after all, all his letters were adressed to Christians {BELIEVERS}. If salvation could not be lost St.Paul was wasting his time.

Letters to the Churches of asia.

Ephesus: Rev. 2: 5, Realize how far you have fallen. REPENT

Smyrna: Rev. 2:11, Whoever has ears ought to hear the Church’s teaching.REMAIN FAITHFUL.

Pergamum: Rev. 15, some bad teaching.REPENT

Thytira: Rev. 2:23, I am the searcher of hearts,you all will get what you desereve.REPENT

Sardis: Rev. 3:3, Remember how you accepted keep it.REPENT

Laodicea: Rev. 3:16, Jesus will spit them out of His mouth if they are only luke warm.REPENT

REDEMPTION IS THE DOOR TO SALVATION. FIRST FRUITS.
SALVATION APPLICATION OF THE FRUITS.

Redemption and salvation are very different.:yup:

Peace,

 

[Sig]

Hi,Sig, St. Paul did not seem to think so, after all, all his letters were adressed to Christians {BELIEVERS}. If salvation could not be lost St.Paul was wasting his time.

Have you ever read the parable of the “wheat and the tares?” (Mt 13). It would be a good idea for you to do so.

Letters to the Churches of asia.

Ephesus: Rev. 2: 5, Realize how far you have fallen. REPENT

Smyrna: Rev. 2:11, Whoever has ears ought to hear the Church’s teaching.REMAIN FAITHFUL.

Pergamum: Rev. 15, some bad teaching.REPENT

Thytira: Rev. 2:23, I am the searcher of hearts,you all will get what you desereve.REPENT

Sardis: Rev. 3:3, Remember how you accepted keep it.REPENT

Laodicea: Rev. 3:16, Jesus will spit them out of His mouth if they arue only luke warm.REPENT

The letters to the churches are not treatises on salvation.

Remember, The only ones who are saved are those given eternal life by Jesus, and regarding those, Jesus says they WILL NEVER PERISH.

Do you know what NEVER means?

Also, Paul is clear that it is God who justifies man, and those justified by God are also glorified by God (Rom 8:29ff).

Do you know what GLORIFIED means?

Salvation can’t be lost. :nope:

God bless

 

[Odell]

Odell, please.

The conditional statement is conditioned upon receiving a knowledge of the truth. Anyone who has heard the Gospel has received a knowledge of the truth, and if they reject that truth they’re doomed.

The description of those described in the passage as willfully sinning are, adversaries of God who trample the Son of God underfoot and insult the Holy Spirit Those are hardly descriptions of believers, who are described, in part as, adopted sons of God, beloved by God, children of God by the will of God, overcomers, conquerors, sealed by the Spirit.

Again, v39, believers are not those who return to perdition, but those who continue in faith to the saving of the soul. The just shall live BY FAITH, Heb 10:38.

Those who insult the Holy Spirit are those whom have insulted the Holy Spirit have counted unworthy the blood that they have been sanctified.

Now I could be wrong but I’m pretty sure that in Protestant theology sanctification comes after justification. So to say these people Paul is addressing are hardly believers makes little to no sense what so ever.

(Heb10:29)

29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

 

[onenow1]

Have you ever read the parable of the “wheat and the tares?” (Mt 13). It would be a good idea for you to do so.The letters to the churches are not treatises on salvation.]QUOTE]

I

/ am trying to be humble here and present to you the teachng of the Holy Catholic Church ;your less then humble slurs make it hard to do ! I mean the following not to be disparging in any way;>>and I hope the tares you have been around have not influenced your salvation. So pray tell why did St.Paul write his letters after he converted so many to Christianity?

 

[Odell]

Have you ever read the parable of the “wheat and the tares?” (Mt 13). It would be a good idea for you to do so.

The letters to the churches are not treatises on salvation.

Remember, The only ones who are saved are those given eternal life by Jesus, and regarding those, Jesus says they WILL NEVER PERISH.

Do you know what NEVER means?

Also, Paul is clear that it is God who justifies man, and those justified by God are also glorified by God (Rom 8:29ff).

Do you know what GLORIFIED means?

Salvation can’t be lost. :nope:

God bless

I have already been through this never deal. You refused to address it. For one never say never Scripture uses never many times and you wouldn’t always interpret it in such a literal way.
Now let’s grant you the premiss Jesus could very well be speaking to His elect. I for one happen to ages with you. The Church does not deny this. However the verse does not say the sheep infalibility k ow they are the elect. The verse is about Gods knowledge, not sheeps knowledge. This verse dosnt even have to be about the elect because we have shown that not all who are given to Jesus stay with Jesus to the end, but only those who are given the gift of final perseverance. The words “hear” and “follow” are present tense active verbs indicating continuous and ongoing actions with no guarantee that such actions remain. We also should point out Jesus is spelling of external forces that could pluck His sheep out of His hand.

 

[onenow1]

I have already been through this never deal. You refused to address it. For one never say never Scripture uses never many times and you wouldn’t always interpret it in such a literal way.
Now let’s grant you the premiss Jesus could very well be speaking to His elect. I for one happen to ages with you. The Church does not deny this. However the verse does not say the sheep infalibility k ow they are the elect. The verse is about Gods knowledge, not sheeps knowledge. This verse dosnt even have to be about the elect because we have shown that not all who are given to Jesus stay with Jesus to the end, but only those who are given the gift of final perseverance. The words “hear” and “follow” are present tense active verbs indicating continuous and ongoing actions with no guarantee that such actions remain. We also should point out Jesus is spelling of external forces that could pluck His sheep out of His hand.

Hi, Odell Thank the Lord we have the Church through the Holy Spirit to clarify Scripture with its Tradition of nearly 2000yrs.

God Bless
.

 

[Sig]

I have already been through this never deal. You refused to address it. For one never say never Scripture uses never many times and you wouldn’t always interpret it in such a literal way.

I’m sorry, I asked if you knew what “never” means. Are you saying that you don’t know? Let me help you out. In that passage, John 10:28, “never” is translated from two Greek words strung together to form a very strong of Greek negatives. Those two Greek works are, “ou mᾱ.”

Do you know what a “STRONG NEGATIVE” is/means?

Now let’s grant you the premiss Jesus could very well be speaking to His elect. I for one happen to ages with you. The Church does not deny this. However the verse does not say the sheep infalibility k ow they are the elect. The verse is about Gods knowledge, not sheeps knowledge.

That’s irrelevant, and is, in my opinion, nothing but an attempt to distract from the fact that salvation cannot be lost.

This verse dosnt even have to be about the elect because we have shown that not all who are given to Jesus stay with Jesus to the end, but only those who are given the gift of final perseverance. The words “hear” and “follow” are present tense active verbs indicating continuous and ongoing actions with no guarantee that such actions remain. We also should point out Jesus is spelling of external forces that could pluck His sheep out of His hand.

My friend, ***it is God who justifies ***(Rom 8:33), and those justified by God are also glorified by God (Rom 8:30).

Do you know what ALSO GLORIFIED means?

 

[Sig]

Those who insult the Holy Spirit are those whom have insulted the Holy Spirit have counted unworthy the blood that they have been sanctified.

Now I could be wrong but I’m pretty sure that in Protestant theology sanctification comes after justification. So to say these people Paul is addressing are hardly believers makes little to no sense what so ever.

(Heb10:29)

29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

I said in an earlier post that I believe that is referring to Jesus, who was set apart to God by His sacrifice (cf Jn 17:19), because you’re right, only true believers are sanctified, and rejecting Christ does insult the Spirit who worked through Him (Mt 12:31, 32), and who testifies of Him (Jn 15:26; 16:8-11), and who will never leave a believer once He seals him, but stays with Him forever (Jn 14:16).

It is God who justifies (Rom 8:33), and those justified by God, are also glorified by Him (Rom 8:30).

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Odell,

You’re not wrong.

The experiences that Paul had with people who began to believe but then for some reason fell away apparently happened in more than one area. Hebrews 6 and 1Tim4 are good examples.

In my opinion the Parable of the Sower (Matt 13:3-9) is probably a better example of those who once had the faith and lost it. All of the seeds left the Sower’s Hand. In real life, if we do not make the effort to find good soil (develop a prayer life) we will quickly find that there are many elements that will want to destroy our life with God. While we are still in Matt 13, we can look at the parable of the wheat and tares (v.24-30) - but, I think this is more the lesson on the desire of evil to invade the creation of God - and just how far evil will go.

The distinction is obvious, unless there is another agenda like trying to prove OSAS… for example with the wheat and tears we begin with the knowledge that the wheat are in the field and planted there by the Master. Secretly, the Devil provides the tares in an effort to destroy the crop that God has planted. In real life, sin does enter into our lives through our poor use of our Free Will. Some linger only a little while before repenting, while others never repent before they die. On the Last Day - the day of the Harvest - the wheat and tares will be separated. But, until then, it is our job to use our Free Will and choose to believe God’s Word, through His Church founded on Peter and do the good works that He has given us to do.

Maybe that is a good distinction between those two agricultural-type parables.

God bless

Those who insult the Holy Spirit are those whom have insulted the Holy Spirit have counted unworthy the blood that they have been sanctified.

Now I could be wrong but I’m pretty sure that in Protestant theology sanctification comes after justification. So to say these people Paul is addressing are hardly believers makes little to no sense what so ever.

(Heb10:29)

29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

 

[PRmerger]

I’m sorry, I asked if you knew what “never” means. Are you saying that you don’t know? Let me help you out. In that passage, John 10:28, “never” is translated from two Greek words strung together to form a very strong of Greek negatives. Those two Greek works are, “ou mᾱ.”

Do you know what a “STRONG NEGATIVE” is/means?

Unless you are implying that Jesus is not omniscient, and “NEVER” knew a person, we can understand the idiom, “I never knew you” as the ECFs understood it:

St. Augustine says

He spoke of those who after the preaching of His Gospel seem to themselves to speak in His name not knowing what they speak.

St. Gregory says

By this sentence it is given to us to learn, that among men Charity and humility, and not mighty works, are to be esteemed. Whence also now the Holy Church, if there be any miracles of heretics, despises them, because she knows that they have not the mark of holiness. And the proof of holiness is not to work miracles, but to love our neighbor as ourselves, to think truly of God, and of our neighbor better than of ourselves.

St. Hilary says

But thus the hypocrites boasted, as though they spoke somewhat of themselves, and as though the power of God did not work all these things, being invoked; but reading has brought them the knowledge of His doctrine, and the name of Christ casts out the demons. Out of our own selves then is that blessed eternity to be earned, and out of ourselves must be put forth something that we may will that which is good, that we may avoid all evil, and may rather do what He would have us do, than boast of that to which He enables us. These then He disowns and banishes for their evil works, saying, Depart from me, you that work iniquity.

Originally posted in this thead: “I never knew you”: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3148066&postcount=6

 

[Sig]

Unless you are implying that Jesus is not omniscient, and “NEVER” knew a person, we can understand the idiom, “I never knew you” as the ECFs understood it:

St. Augustine says

St. Gregory says

St. Hilary says

Originally posted in this thead: “I never knew you”: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3148066&postcount=6

No, I’m referring to what Jesus says in John 10:28, those to whom He gives eternal life will never perish.

 

[PRmerger]

No, I’m referring to what Jesus says in John 10:28, those to whom He gives eternal life will never perish.

Fair enough.

And Catholics give a hearty amen! to that.

If God grants us eternal life, and we are granted the beatific vision, we *will * indeed never perish.

 

[Sig]

Fair enough.

And Catholics give a hearty amen! to that.

If God grants us eternal life, and we are granted the beatific vision, we *will * indeed never perish.

FYI, Jesus giving eternal life in John 10:28 is in the present tense, it’s given to the believer when he believes (Jn 6:27, 40; cf 1 Jn 2:25; 5:11).

Are Catholics able to give a hearty amen to that? Or not?

 

[Odell]

I’m sorry, I asked if you knew what “never” means. Are you saying that you don’t know? Let me help you out. In that passage, John 10:28, “never” is translated from two Greek words strung together to form a very strong of Greek negatives. Those two Greek works are, “ou mᾱ.”

Do you know what a “STRONG NEGATIVE” is/means?

So you believe the rich will never enter heaven?

Also I was willing to permit you the fact that Jesus is talking about the elect. I tend to agree with you. But you have yet addressed the fact that it is God who is the knowing in this passage not the believer. The believe does not know.

That’s irrelevant, and is, in my opinion, nothing but an attempt to distract from the fact that salvation cannot be lost.

My friend, ***it is God who justifies ***(Rom 8:33), and those justified by God are also glorified by God (Rom 8:30).

Do you know what ALSO GLORIFIED means?

Yes and justification and glorification are ongoing. Do you know what sanctification means because those who have been sactified can clearly profane the Spirit that sanctifies. You would have us believe something different to support your ideology. It’s clear that one who is sactified can lose their salvation.

 

[PRmerger]

FYI, Jesus giving eternal life in John 10:28 is in the present tense, it’s given to the believer when he believes (Jn 6:27, 40; cf 1 Jn 2:25; 5:11).

Are Catholics able to give a hearty amen to that? Or not?

Yes, we do give a hearty amen to that!

However, as we leak, this salvific life within us, sadly, can be lost.

We aren’t saved until we’re dead. Period. (With little asterisks in between. )