SPLIT: Once Saved Always Saved? (Revisited)

[PRmerger]

I don’t understand this question. Would you rephrase the question in the context of a specific passage? Or not, if this was a rhetorical question.

No, it’s more of a basic 4th grade vocabulary question.

Does “stray” mean “to continuously hear and follow”?

Sig and I have agreed to let the folks here decide for themselves.

 

[PRmerger]

Me? Like a land-war in Asia, this is one I want to stay out of.

But I am forced into it against my will. I regard myself as a one-person sin factory, continually generating sin on so many levels that I would, if Catholic, have to live in a confessional and have priests tag-teaming me just to keep up with it. ‘If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness’ - one of my favorite verses.

Beautiful, indeed.

If I were Catholic I would be popping in and out of grace like a strobe light.

If you were Catholic you would be getting sufficient grace from the Sacraments. Your cup would be overflowing, I do believe.

I prefer forensic justification - the pronouncement, by God, that I am clean and just in His sight, legally declared and Him acting on that word as He sanctifies me.

How is it that you believe that God can see anything except what IS? What is true?

Are you not truly clean? If not, how can He see something different except that which is True?

What particularly bothers me regarding this thread is that the Catholics seem to be saying they are not saved by faith but by their free will.

The Catholic answer is, of course, yes! Why must faith and “free will” be mutually exclusive?

That’s why I love Catholicism. It’s usually a both/and polemic we have at our disposal

We have the leg up when we’re in dialogue with, say, atheists, because we use Faith AND Reason.

We have the leg up when we’re in dialogue with, say, Muslims, because we believe in Divine Mercy AND Justice.

We have the leg up when we’re in dialogue with non-Catholic Christians because we believe in Faith AND Works.

It’s an easy way to refute most objections.

This mutually exclusive “either this or that” argument that’s often proferred is, I believe, the fruit of the Author of Lies.

 

[PRmerger]

Regarding the “stray sheep” thing, Christ came to seek and save that which is lost. A good shepherd does not say “that sheep wandered off. Tough on it.” Instead he goes and rescues that lost sheep and brings it back to the fold- willing or unwilling.

It is good to see that you understand that His sheep *can *wander off, and do not, as Sig proferrs, “continuously hear and follow”.

 

[PRmerger]

Now I am confused. Sig are you saying a born again Christian never sins? And if so, would you mind running down a list of what the “sins” are?

It appears so. :sad_yes:

Originally Posted by PRmerger
Are you saying that you don’t sin, Sig?

Nope.

 

[PRmerger]

Now I am confused. Sig are you saying a born again Christian never sins? And if so, would you mind running down a list of what the “sins” are?

I got that impression, too, Lisa. It does appear that Sig is saying that a born again Christian never sins.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m trying to help PRmerger understand the Greek present tense. She doesn’t get it yet. It’s a lesson for her. Stay tuned.

Oh, I know nothing about the Greek present tense!

So, yes, please elucidate.

Oh, and if you could, could you please offer us what your credentials are in this expertise in Biblical Greek that you have? Where did you study? For how long? Was it an online class that I might be able to take also?

 

[PRmerger]

nope it dosnt

That’s one for me, Sig.

 

[PRmerger]

That’s one for me, Sig.

Oh, and I forgot, TinaG, is a vote for me, too.

 

[PRmerger]

:nope:

And another one for me.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, PRmerger,

No.

Not only do sheep stray … but, some are saved by the Good Shepherd - and some freely choose not to be saved - and, the wolf takes care of them.

Now, you realize that no matter how many people vote that a circle can have no corners … there will be some who still hold that their circle has corners - and you can just keep your ‘anti-corner’ definition of a circle to yourself, thank you!

God bless

Yes, folks. You decide:

[SIGN]Does stray mean the same thing as “continuously hears and follows”?[/SIGN]

 

[PRmerger]

Hi, PRmerger,

No.

Not only do sheep stray … but, some are saved by the Good Shepherd - and some freely choose not to be saved - and, the wolf takes care of them.

Now, you realize that no matter how many people vote that a circle can have no corners … there will be some who still hold that their circle has corners - and you can just keep your ‘anti-corner’ definition of a circle to yourself, thank you!

God bless

Sig? I think this is a vote for me, too.

Thanks, Tom.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, PRmerger,

I think he is trying to pull the ‘wool’ over our eyes …

God bless

I won’t answer until you can tell us how a stray sheep “continuously hears and follows”, or until you acknowledge that this is, well, an absurd paradigm.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, PRmerger,

Looks like a ‘landslide’ from all of the votes counted so far.

Ah, is it ‘OK’ to vote for on’s own idea? With no one voting that this obvious contradiction in terms makes sense … it is looking pretty dim for the OSAS crowd!

God bless

Sig? I think this is a vote for me, too.

Thanks, Tom.

 

[FutureCatholic1]

Hi, FutureCatholic,

We need to be charitable… and accurate You can see from the pages of posts the degree of openness we are given.

Actually, there is real evidence of an open mind - open to any idea that promotes OSAS, lack of Free Will, the fact that many of us - beginning with the Pope are sinners and go to Confession and the Pre-determination of the soul by a god who just damns souls because he can. If I missed anything, it was an honest oversight.

God bless

your right my bad

 

[tqualey]

Hi, PRmerger,

This is only slightly different from the current color of the posts we have had so far … but, I won’t let that stop me.

I am only guessing here … but, it would seem to be that OSAS is incredibly depressing as a doctrine.

If one believes they are saved - what is to stop them from partially evil acts to full-fledged evil acts … and think they have avoid ‘sin’ because they think they are the Elect Club? By the same token, if one wanted to love Christ but was informed (by who?..probably the same guy who told the Elect guy that he was not only ‘saved’ but ‘always saved!’ … but, I digress … ) that they were in the Reprobate Club - and, there was nothing they could do to avoid Hell - wouldn’t this group be equally inclined to also sin. (The Reprobates ‘sin’ while the Elect ‘commit evil’!! ).

So here is this mental image (helped by paintings and drawings…images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=A2KJke6qOfVOPBMAqbqJzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTBlMTQ4cGxyBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1n?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Dthe%2Bgood%2Bshepherd%26fr%3Dyfp-t-464-s%26fr2%3Dpiv-web%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D51&w=525&h=456&imgurl=www.truthbook.com%2Fimages%2Fsite_images%2FDel_Parson_The_Good_Shepherd_525.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.truthbook.com%2Findex.cfm%3FlinkID%3D1817&size=312.5+KB&name=The+Good+Shepherd+by+Del+Parson&p=the+good+shepherd&oid=2b3264bb65fcd58fe3c793a2fae94771&fr2=piv-web&fr=yfp-t-464-s&tt=The%2BGood%2BShepherd%2Bby%2BDel%2BParson&b=31&ni=84&no=51&tab=organic&ts=&sigr=11e7dnbeq&sigb=13dnmcndo&sigi=129rect9a&.crumb=CgrPXu5dhJK

and one group thinks that they never stray - so, they do not need to be on Christ’s shoulders - and the other group is damned before they begin - so they can only look at the flock from a distance while waiting for the wolf to kill and eat them! (Ah, sorry about the really long URL … but it is a good picture… )

How does this appeal to anyone - especially when there is NO ONE who can say how a person’s spiritual life is gong to begin when their earthly life stops.

God bless

I won’t answer until you can tell us how a stray sheep “continuously hears and follows”, or until you acknowledge that this is, well, an absurd paradigm.

 

[PRmerger]

So here is this mental image (helped by paintings and drawings…images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=A2KJke6qOfVOPBMAqbqJzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTBlMTQ4cGxyBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1n?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Dthe%2Bgood%2Bshepherd%26fr%3Dyfp-t-464-s%26fr2%3Dpiv-web%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D51&w=525&h=456&imgurl=www.truthbook.com%2Fimages%2Fsite_images%2FDel_Parson_The_Good_Shepherd_525.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.truthbook.com%2Findex.cfm%3FlinkID%3D1817&size=312.5+KB&name=The+Good+Shepherd+by+Del+Parson&p=the+good+shepherd&oid=2b3264bb65fcd58fe3c793a2fae94771&fr2=piv-web&fr=yfp-t-464-s&tt=The%2BGood%2BShepherd%2Bby%2BDel%2BParson&b=31&ni=84&no=51&tab=organic&ts=&sigr=11e7dnbeq&sigb=13dnmcndo&sigi=129rect9a&.crumb=CgrPXu5dhJK

Beautiful imagery, to be sure!

 

[tqualey]

Hi, FutureCatholic,

Awwwwwwwwwww … don’t take it too hard …

Listen, in one post, he could simply prove me wrong … you know, like admit he has a Free Will, or that even though he thinks he is permanently saved - there is this disquieting idea that with this Free Will thing he could reject God’s Grace… or… that ‘sheep’ really scatter (like it says in Ezekiel) and stray… or something like that… and ‘bang!’ my argument is toast.

I am willing to wait - besides the Mod may go into a 3rd iteration!

God bless

your right my bad

 

[fhansen]

Hi, PRmerger,

This is only slightly different from the current color of the posts we have had so far … but, I won’t let that stop me.

I am only guessing here … but, it would seem to be that OSAS is incredibly depressing as a doctrine.

If one believes they are saved - what is to stop them from partially evil acts to full-fledged evil acts … and think they have avoid ‘sin’ because they think they are the Elect Club? By the same token, if one wanted to love Christ but was informed (by who?..probably the same guy who told the Elect guy that he was not only ‘saved’ but ‘always saved!’ … but, I digress … ) that they were in the Reprobate Club - and, there was nothing they could do to avoid Hell - wouldn’t this group be equally inclined to also sin. (The Reprobates ‘sin’ while the Elect ‘commit evil’!! ).

So here is this mental image (helped by paintings and drawings…images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=A2KJke6qOfVOPBMAqbqJzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTBlMTQ4cGxyBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1n?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Dthe%2Bgood%2Bshepherd%26fr%3Dyfp-t-464-s%26fr2%3Dpiv-web%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D51&w=525&h=456&imgurl=www.truthbook.com%2Fimages%2Fsite_images%2FDel_Parson_The_Good_Shepherd_525.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.truthbook.com%2Findex.cfm%3FlinkID%3D1817&size=312.5+KB&name=The+Good+Shepherd+by+Del+Parson&p=the+good+shepherd&oid=2b3264bb65fcd58fe3c793a2fae94771&fr2=piv-web&fr=yfp-t-464-s&tt=The%2BGood%2BShepherd%2Bby%2BDel%2BParson&b=31&ni=84&no=51&tab=organic&ts=&sigr=11e7dnbeq&sigb=13dnmcndo&sigi=129rect9a&.crumb=CgrPXu5dhJK

and one group thinks that they never stray - so, they do not need to be on Christ’s shoulders - and the other group is damned before they begin - so they can only look at the flock from a distance while waiting for the wolf to kill and eat them! (Ah, sorry about the really long URL … but it is a good picture… )

How does this appeal to anyone - especially when there is NO ONE who can say how a person’s spiritual life is gong to begin when their earthly life stops.

God bless

Well, I’m all with PR, we used to have some sheep and I know they like to stray-and sometimes I wished they* would* fall into a pit! But in the case of some Protestants who believe themselves to be part of the elect, they generally believe that, if they were to stray far, they’d probably have to reassess and determine they were never saved-or one of the elect- to begin with, sort of ‘once saved, not saved after all’. Of course by that time such a person probably wouldn’t much care about any of it anyway. I once had a pastor who said that after he became born again he never wanted to sin again-he was ‘a new creation in Christ’. A couple years later his adultery rocked his church until it split at the seams!

O course the other option is that God doesn’t hold the elect accountable for sin. They should sin less as a result of being sanctified, but regardless Jesus’ righteousness covers their unrighteousness not only for past but also for future sins. Sort of like managing to make sin no longer sinful.

 

[paul_c]

1 Jn 3:9

Whoever has been born of God does not sin…he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

1 Jn 5:18

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin…Have you ever been to confession to confess your sins, PR?

If so, you are not a follower of Jesus, and you are not born again. You never have been. You can’t be, ever. You sin.

Bummer, eh?

Sig,
you have gone way over the top now. You honestly believe that someone who confesses their sins is not a Christian? Please!!

Did you read the entire first letter of John? If you had, you would have seen this in 1John 1:

8 If we say, “We are without sin,” we deceive ourselves,* and the truth is not in us.
9 If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing.
10 If we say, “We have not sinned,” we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

So, on the previous thread, we agreed that scripture can not contradict itself and when it seems that it does, then our interpretation of the scripture must be wrong.

Well, I submit that you must re-evaluate your interpretation of 1John 3:9 and 1John 5:18 because it clearly contradicts 1John 1: 8-10, which says that if we say we are without sin we decieve ourselves and that if we acknowledge our sin, then we will be forgiven. That is a strong scriptural support for the sacrament of reconciliation.

You see, 1John is a tremendous example of Catholic Tradition. It is all about Love being the key to being a Christian. And that love is following the commandments. Its about loving as a necessary fulfillment of faith.

In fact, John is specific as to why he wrote the letter in the first place . 1John 2:
1 My children,* I am writing this to you so that you may not commit sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous one.
2 He is expiation for our sins, and not for our sins only but for those of the whole world.
3 The way we may be sure* that we know him is to keep his commandments.
4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps his word, the love of God is truly perfected in him. This is the way we may know that we are in union with him:
6 whoever claims to abide in him ought to live [just] as he lived.

This explains the theology of Salvation in very Catholic terms. Notice, it says nothing about predestination, OSAS or sola fide…

By the way, I’ve been away for a few days. Welcome back…

 

[FutureCatholic1]

btw what is the churches official teaching on this