SPLIT: Once Saved Always Saved? (Revisited)

[paul_c]

Me? Like a land-war in Asia, this is one I want to stay out of. But I am forced into it against my will. I regard myself as a one-person sin factory, continually generating sin on so many levels that I would, if Catholic, have to live in a confessional and have priests tag-teaming me just to keep up with it.

Not so Tina. If you were a catholic, you would have the graces from the sacraments constantly increasing your ability to avoid sin and perfect you in holiness. That is the purpose of the sacraments.

‘If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness’ - one of my favorite verses. If I were Catholic I would be popping in and out of grace like a strobe light.

For a while, perhaps, but if you were sincere in your efforts, you would find that your tendency to sin would reduce with the ferver of your confessions.

I prefer forensic justification - the pronouncement, by God, that I am clean and just in His sight, legally declared and Him acting on that word as He sanctifies me.

I’m sure that’s what you prefer, but you also must recognize that its a lie. God is not a lawyer. God is truth itself. You are either really clean or you are not. When he forgives our sins, he gives us a fresh start but we must stay clean after that.

What particularly bothers me regarding this thread is that the Catholics seem to be saying they are not saved by faith but by their free will.

You obviously are not hearing what we are saying. Let me try again.

1. 
   *]1.We are SAVED (put in the state of grace) through faith when we are baptized.
   *]2. We STAY SAVED (stay in the state of grace) by doing God’s will for us. This is to love him and our neighbors in the situations we find ourselves in
   *]3. If we fall from grace through sin, we can be SAVED AGAIN (returned to the state of grace) through the sacrament of reconciliation (confession)
   *]4. If we die in the state of grace, we will go to heaven. If we still have a tendency to sin, we will spend time in purgatory prior to heaven to eliminate that tendency because nothing clean can enter heaven.
   

   Perhaps that is an overemphasis to combat what they view as errors on the other side? Salvation is not a survival of the fittest, a Darwinian winnowing of the elect so only the toughest make it. I suspect some of what I am hearing is so that you hope to boast, or do boast, on how great you are that you chose God. Yet Jesus said “You did not choose me - I chose you.”

   Again, a misunderstanding of Catholic teaching. Let me clarify:
   Its not the toughest, or the strongest that make it to heaven, but the most faithful, humble and loving that make it. It really comes down to faith, hope and love. The three theological virtues. And lets keep it in Context, Jesus was talking to the Apostles in the last supper dialogs when he said " you did not choose, me, I chose you." later, He also says, " When I am lifted up, I will call all men to myself" and indeed he does. Not every man answers the call. For as He also said in the sermon on the Mount,:
   
   13 “Enter through the narrow gate;* for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many.
   14 How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.
   
   Notice, the terminology. People Enter the gate to hell and Find the gate to heaven. This is about effort and choice. Jesus is the gate to heaven. Not everyone finds their way to him, even though he calls out to them.
   

   Regarding the “stray sheep” thing, Christ came to seek and save that which is lost. A good shepherd does not say “that sheep wandered off. Tough on it.” Instead he goes and rescues that lost sheep and brings it back to the fold- willing or unwilling.
   
   -Tina “More a Sheep Than I Sheepishly Admit” G

   Yes, he is continually searching out the lost sheep but no where does it say that he brings an unwilling sheep back to the fold. That is your own personal interpretation.
   
   Tina, I hope you will take a step back and contemplate what I am telling you. Since you are being honest with yourself about being a sinner, you need to take concrete action to make amends in your life. You can’t just say, " Jesus will save me because I believe he will save me" Remember, a significant part of every gospel and epistle focuses on how to live the Christian life for a reason and no where will you find a statement that sin is okay. Don’t discount the value of the sacraments in giving you the grace you need to combat sin in your life and to be truly saved. Whatever it is that you are doing now doesn’t seem to be working, otherwise, you wouldn’t be spending so much time on a Catholic Forum… And please consider the fact that you are misrepresenting Catholic teaching in this post. I don’t believe its intentional but its real, nonetheless.

 

[PRmerger]

btw what is the churches official teaching on this

From Catholic.com catholic.com/tracts/mortal-sin:

It was not until the time of John Calvin that anyone would claim that it was impossible for a true Christian to lose his salvation. That teaching, which was not even shared by Martin Luther and his followers, was a theological novelty of the mid-sixteenth century, a teaching which would have been condemned as a dangerous heresy by all previous generations of Christians. It would drive people to the despair of thinking that, if they had committed grave sins, they had never been true Christians. Further, they would suffer similar anxiety over any subsequent conversion, since their first would not have been genuine, according to this teaching. Or it would drive them into thinking that their grave sins were really not grave at all, for no true Christian could have committed such sins.

In time the “once saved, always saved” teaching even degenerated in many Evangelical circles to the point that some would claim that a Christian could commit grave sins and still remain saved: sin did not injure his relationship with God at all.

Fortunately, most Christians today reject Calvin’s error, acknowledging that there are at least some mortal sins—sins which kill the spiritual life of the soul and deprive a person of salvation, unless he repents. Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, Pentecostals—all acknowledge the possibility of mortal sin at least in some form. Only Presbyterians, Baptists, and those who have been influenced by these two sects reject the reality of mortal sin.

The early Church Fathers, of course, were unanimous in teaching the reality of mortal sin. They had to embrace the doctrine of mortal sin precisely because they recognized not only the salvific power of baptism but also the damning power of certain serious sins. The Church taught that “baptism . . . now saves you” (1 Pet. 3:21; see the Catholic Answers tracts Baptismal Grace andBorn of Water and the Spirit). However, since during the persecutions some baptized people denied Christ, and since Christ taught that “whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 10:33), the Church Fathers recognized that it was possible to lose the grace of salvation after baptism.

The idea that one could never lose salvation would have been unimaginable to them, since it was evident from the Bible that baptism saves, that the baptized can deny Christ, and that those who deny Christ will not be saved unless they repent, as did Peter.

It was equally unthinkable to predestinarian thinkers, such as Augustine, who, just two years before he died, taught in his book The Gift of Perseverance that not all who were predestined to come to God’s grace were predestined to remain with him until glory. This was, in fact, the teaching of all the high predestinarians (Augustine, Fulgentius, Aquinas, Luther)—until the time of Calvin.

 

[fhansen]

btw what is the churches official teaching on this

AAAH!
OK, from the Council of Trent, Session 6 on Justification:

**CHAPTER IX.
Against the vain confidence of Heretics.
But, although it is necessary to believe that sins neither are remitted, nor ever were remitted save gratuitously by the mercy of God for Christ’s sake; yet is it not to be said, that sins are forgiven, or have been forgiven, to any one who boasts of his confidence and certainty of the remission of his sins, and rests on that alone; seeing that it may exist, yea does in our day exist, amongst heretics and schismatics; and with great vehemence is this vain confidence, and one alien from all godliness, preached up in opposition to the Catholic Church. But neither [Page 37] is this to be asserted,-that they who are truly justified must needs, without any doubting whatever, settle within themselves that they are justified, and that no one is absolved from sins and justified, but he that believes for certain that he is absolved and justified; and that absolution and justification are effected by this faith alone: as though whoso has not this belief, doubts of the promises of God, and of the efficacy of the death and resurrection of Christ. For even as no pious person ought to doubt of the mercy of God, of the merit of Christ, and of the virtue and efficacy of the sacraments, even so each one, when he regards himself, and his own weakness and indisposition, may have fear and apprehension touching his own grace; seeing that no one can know with a certainty of faith, which cannot be subject to error, that he has obtained the grace of God.

CHAPTER XII.
That a rash presumptuousness in the matter of Predestination is to be avoided.
No one, moreover, so long as he is in this mortal life, ought so far to presume as regards the secret mystery of divine predestination, as to determine for certain that he is assuredly in [Page 40] the number of the predestinate; as if it were true, that he that is justified, either cannot sin any more, or, if he do sin, that he ought to promise himself an assured repentance; for except by special revelation, it cannot be known whom God hath chosen unto Himself.

CHAPTER XIII.
On the gift of Perseverance.
So also as regards the gift of perseverance, of which it is written, He that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved:-which gift cannot be derived from any other but Him, who is able to establish him who standeth that he stand perseveringly, and to restore him who falleth:-let no one herein promise himself any thing as certain with an absolute certainty; though all ought to place and repose a most firm hope in God’s help. For God, unless men be themselves wanting to His grace, as he has begun the good work, so will he perfect it, working (in them) to will and to accomplish. Nevertheless, let those who think themselves to stand, take heed lest they fall, and, with fear and trembling work out their salvation, in labours, in watchings, in almsdeeds, in prayers and oblations, in fastings and chastity: for, knowing that they are born again unto a hope of glory, but not as yet unto glory, they ought to fear for the combat which yet remains with the flesh, with the world, with the devil, wherein they cannot be victorious, unless they be with God’s grace, obedient to the Apostle, who says; We are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh; for if you live according to the flesh, you shall die; but if by the spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live.**

 

[paul_c]

btw what is the churches official teaching on this

The official church teaching can be found in the catechism: this is the go to source for all official Catholic teaching:
man’s freedom: scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a3.htm
grace and justification: scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm
baptism in the economy of salvation: scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#II

I hope this helps. A few posts ago, I gave a 4 line simple synopsis of this in a post to Sig.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Fhansen,

Now, with regards to sheep falling into a pit … all that wool may make it look like they can bounce … but, that is more the cartoon version of sheep! By the time you would find them … well … you’d probably be talking about a b-b-q and inviting the neighbors over!

So, we have a new version of OSAS … and you call it … ‘OS-NSAA’ … I’d recommend the hyphen, just to keep all the letter a bit more manageable and we certainly do not want the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) to start getting e-mails on theological questions… You see, living in Houston has had an effect on my thinking!

Sorry to hear about your pastor - there are few things worse than the destructive scandal given by one who outwardly professes to follow Christ and then leads the sheep astray or scatters them through bad example and worse leadership. In both Matthew 18:6 and Mark 9:42, we see Christ condemning those who give scandal to children. But, there are many with a child-like faith in an adult body that can be significantly damaged by scandal. And, I am not being specific to just your weak pastor - but, to all who have given scandal and hurt the faith of innocents.

Really, I have worked this OSAS heresy through my mind several different ways - and, it really just seems like an attempt to manipulate God.

Like somehow this person got a ‘single base hit’ (to use a baseball analogy) and they’re on First Base annoying the Pitcher as if they were gong to steal Second Base. [Their view may be: OOB-AOB ‘Once On Base, Always On Base’ - of course the only real problem with that is that the Pitcher dose not agree with that!] Well, our First Base runner gets over-confident, leaves the base and is picked off by the Pitcher and the First Baseman! Now, the Manager comes running out to fuss at the First Base Umpire. “What do you mean he was never safe to begin with?!”, he yells. The Umpire calmly explains that the runner used his Free Will and left the safety of the base - and even though he got safely back before a throw … this last time the Pitcher was too fast for him, and he was called out for ‘straying’ from First Base!

Of course the Manager is unhappy, but trying to bully the Umpire just is not going to work! And we are now seeing the thrown out runner sadly going to the ‘hellish ridicule’ of the dugout, where his fellow team mates will tell him that “There will be accountability for everyone’s actions - and his actions on the field were just too slow to be helpful!”

Yes, OSAS is a problem for the multitude of Protestants who, in good faith, try to live this out with the Free Will that they know they have.

God bless

Well, I’m all with PR, we used to have some sheep and I know they like to stray-and sometimes I wished they* would* fall into a pit! But in the case of some Protestants who believe themselves to be part of the elect, they generally believe that, if they were to stray far, they’d probably have to reassess and determine they were never saved-or one of the elect- to begin with, sort of ‘once saved, not saved after all’. Of course by that time such a person probably wouldn’t much care about any of it anyway. I once had a pastor who said that after he became born again he never wanted to sin again-he was ‘a new creation in Christ’. A couple years later his adultery rocked his church until it split at the seams!

O course the other option is that God doesn’t hold the elect accountable for sin. They should sin less as a result of being sanctified, but regardless Jesus’ righteousness covers their unrighteousness not only for past but also for future sins. Sort of like managing to make sin no longer sinful.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Paul C,

Thank you for the links - and, for the previous synopsis … both are appreciated.

And, maybe this Christmas Eve it would be appropriate to remember in our prayers those who are no longer with us.

God bless

The official church teaching can be found in the catechism: this is the go to source for all official Catholic teaching:
man’s freedom: scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a3.htm
grace and justification: scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm
baptism in the economy of salvation: scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#II

I hope this helps. A few posts ago, I gave a 4 line simple synopsis of this in a post to Sig.

 

[Ubenedictus]

Wow! this is beautiful, lets see how these points are refuted that is IF they are refuted. I think the problem with this OSAS theology is the predestination issue and calvin thought about its certainty he simply linked this idea to salvation. Well at the end instead of ‘simplying’ what he thought to be complex he made complex what is simple.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Ubenedictus,

In my opinion, if you look at the lives of those who were instrumental in leading the Protestant Revolt you will see that they tended to have a particular problem in their personal lives that was essentially expressed in their view of theology. Luther had difficulties with authority, Calvin was truly hung-up on pre-determination, Henry VII had major issues with sexuality. This is not to say that those in leading the Catholic Church did not have issues - but, it did not over-flow into a re-expression of theology.

The idea of a Loving God, holding out His Arms to welcome back the Prodigal Son - or the image of the Good Shepherd with the formerly Lost Lamb on His Shoulders are not in keeping with Calvin’s view of OSAS.

Notice that we have to take the context of the Scriptural message - not just a verse - to see where the speaker is going. When Protestantism rejected the Church founded by Christ on Peter - and went with a group, founded by a man on the traditions of men in the 16th Century - they lost a lot. One of those lost elements is the definitive explanation of the Holy Bible through the Magisterium. There are over 40,000 Protestant groups all claiming that THEIR interpretation of Scripture is accurate and the guy down the street is wrong. About the only thing all 40,000+ agree on is that the Catholic Church is wrong!

Let me wish you and the folks on this thread a very blessed Christmas.

Wow! this is beautiful, lets see how these points are refuted that is IF they are refuted. I think the problem with this OSAS theology is the predestination issue and calvin thought about its certainty he simply linked this idea to salvation. Well at the end instead of ‘simplying’ what he thought to be complex he made complex what is simple.

 

[onenow1]

Hi, Ubenedictus,

In my opinion, if you look at the lives of those who were instrumental in leading the Protestant Revolt you will see that they tended to have a particular problem in their personal lives that was essentially expressed in their view of theology. Luther had difficulties with authority, Calvin was truly hung-up on pre-determination, Henry VII had major issues with sexuality. This is not to say that those in leading the Catholic Church did not have issues - but, it did not over-flow into a re-expression of theology.

The idea of a Loving God, holding out His Arms to welcome back the Prodigal Son - or the image of the Good Shepherd with the formerly Lost Lamb on His Shoulders are not in keeping with Calvin’s view of OSAS.

Notice that we have to take the context of the Scriptural message - not just a verse - to see where the speaker is going. When Protestantism rejected the Church founded by Christ on Peter - and went with a group, founded by a man on the traditions of men in the 16th Century - they lost a lot. One of those lost elements is the definitive explanation of the Holy Bible through the Magisterium. There are over 40,000 Protestant groups all claiming that THEIR interpretation of Scripture is accurate and the guy down the street is wrong. About the only thing all 40,000+ agree on is that the Catholic Church is wrong!

Let me wish you and the folks on this thread a very blessed Christmas.

Hi, Tqualey

Matthew 18:15-18
Scripture clearly teaches that the highest authority is the Church which Jesus Christ founded.
Notice that in verse 18 He gave only His Church that authority.
How can these verses be ignored by any person who has common sense?

A very blessed Christmas to all,and to all a good day.
onenow1

 

[TinaG]

Tina, I hope you will take a step back and contemplate what I am telling you. Since you are being honest with yourself about being a sinner, you need to take concrete action to make amends in your life. You can’t just say, " Jesus will save me because I believe he will save me" Remember, a significant part of every gospel and epistle focuses on how to live the Christian life for a reason and no where will you find a statement that sin is okay. Don’t discount the value of the sacraments in giving you the grace you need to combat sin in your life and to be truly saved. /QUOTE]

You dredge up the old thing of “because I am saved I can party like hell”. That is about as accurate as if I said because you are Catholic you must be in the Mafia. If you had actually read any Reformed theology (instead of just listening to other Catholics talk about what other Catholics said about it, who never actually bothered reading it) you would be struck by the emphasis on holy living. As children of the king we are to act like it.

Whatever it is that you are doing now doesn’t seem to be working, otherwise, you wouldn’t be spending so much time on a Catholic Forum.

 

[Odell]

I thank God for the Reformation and that I am freed from the rules and regulations that I see Catholics labor under, as you to my mind have returned to legalism out of the glorious freedom of the children of God.

I rejoice in the grace of God, poured upon my life. I thank God for the great gift He has given me, and I seek to be more like Christ every day. Perfect love casts out fear. I seek to please God who loves me and died for me and live for Him not for me.

-Tina “Not that I am Well Taught” G

Tina you accuse us of misrepresenting you. Well what you have said here is a huge miss representing you. What you have said is a gross miss representation of our believes. Legalism is when one obligates God to reward their actions. Catholicism does not teach this. We do understand however that God rewards us by His pure benevolence this is not the same as legalism.

 

[paul_c]

---

paul c;8731850:

Tina, I hope you will take a step back and contemplate what I am telling you. Since you are being honest with yourself about being a sinner, you need to take concrete action to make amends in your life. You can’t just say, " Jesus will save me because I believe he will save me" Remember, a significant part of every gospel and epistle focuses on how to live the Christian life for a reason and no where will you find a statement that sin is okay. Don’t discount the value of the sacraments in giving you the grace you need to combat sin in your life and to be truly saved.

You dredge up the old thing of “because I am saved I can party like hell”. That is about as accurate as if I said because you are Catholic you must be in the Mafia. If you had actually read any Reformed theology (instead of just listening to other Catholics talk about what other Catholics said about it, who never actually bothered reading it) you would be struck by the emphasis on holy living. As children of the king we are to act like it.

I didnt say anything at all like that. You jumped to that conclusion totally on your own. Go back and look at what I actually said. I said you would benefit from the grace available in the sacraments.

Quote:
Whatever it is that you are doing now doesn’t seem to be working, otherwise, you wouldn’t be spending so much time on a Catholic Forum.

Tina,
Are you really saying that coming on his forum is like going to the zoo? Do you really think of Catholics as being in some kind of cage, forced to labor under a series of rules and regulations? It really couldn’t be further from the truth. Simply put, the Church provides direction on how to gain grace and how to get to heaven. Its really not hard. You are called to partake of the sacraments and to love God and neighbor. If you are a child of God, this is what you want to do, so its no burden.

So what do you see yourself freed from? You say that you love God and Neighbor. Would it be a burden for you to go to mass and recieve Jesus bodily once per week? To abstain from meat on Fridays in Lent? To go to confession and be forgiven when you sin? What freedom do you really enjoy?

I rejoice in the grace of God, poured upon my life. I thank God for the great gift He has given me, and I seek to be more like Christ every day. Perfect love casts out fear. I seek to please God who loves me and died for me and live for Him not for me.

That is fantastic.

Quote:
And please consider the fact that you are misrepresenting Catholic teaching in this post. I don’t believe its intentional but its real, nonetheless.

Catechism was surely a problem in my generation (I’m 51) but the church is doing much to fix that situation. This website is a good example of its efforts, as are Catholic radio and EWTN. But you can not judge the Church by those that don’t practice their faith. There are many, many devout Catholics in every parish. There are over 100 people at mass EVERY day in my parish, for instance, and anyone of them could explain the faith in great detail to you. Being grateful for doctrines like eternal security is believing a lie, though. Just because you like it doesn’t make it true.

Since you guys have descended into more gratuitous Calvin-bashing and more contemptuous speculations about things you know little about, I am giving up on this thread.

That is of course your option. We are here to serve you, afterall. Remember, though. The credibility of a doctrine is completely tied up in the credibility of its author. If you believe that Calvin’s doctrines are the truth, you need to really understand why he would know the truth while everyone else was wrong for 1500 years. This is true with all religions. Mormonism stands or falls on the credibility of Joseph Smith in the same way…

See you around

-Tina “Not that I am Well Taught” G

That is completely up to you. We will be here.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Onenow1,

Those leading the Protestant Revolt had issues … but, in my opinion, most of them had both good minds and excellent educations, they were not stupid, uninformed or lacking in common sense - at least by the standards of the time. The Revolt was really not an intelligence, language, culture or geographic issue, in my opinion. I think it was primarily a Faith issue…followed closely by a free-for-all for money and power.

Those in the Revolt saw what appeared to be a worldly Church that did not mirror the poor and humble Christ described in the Gospel. A lot of money was flowing to Rome from these countries - and the worldly leaders of these countries thought they could come up with a better way of spending it than sending it out. Local lax clergy complicated things so that it appeared that there was corruption through out the Church. Now, Christ’s words were clear in Matt 16 and Matt 18 and in numerous other verses - and those who gave public scandal leading up the the 16th Century Revolt have been judged. This appearance of laxity did not go un-noticed by saints like Catherine of Siena (newadvent.org/cathen/03447a.htm ) who Luther could have easily used as a role model - and he could have been St. Martin Luther to this day! But, this is not what happened. Those who left Christ’s Church did so with full knowledge of what they were doing and that they were leading others away from Christ’s Church.

Really, this is a very sad period in the life of the Church - and I do not think we have yet to grasp the impact of public scandal (as evidenced by the apparent world-wide clergy sex scandal ) on the lives of the Faithful. In all humility, we need to see the beam in our own eye first and not dismiss those in Revolt as lacking in common sense. It is only after great efforts were made by the Catholic Church in putting genuine reforms into place that Christ became more visible to the world.

Not only do Protestants deserve an excellent example - Christ demands it of all of us. This is why our prayer life is so important in following Christ today

Have a very Joyous Christmas

Hi, Tqualey

Matthew 18:15-18
Scripture clearly teaches that the highest authority is the Church which Jesus Christ founded.
Notice that in verse 18 He gave only His Church that authority.
How can these verses be ignored by any person who has common sense?

A very blessed Christmas to all,and to all a good day.
onenow1

 

[FutureCatholic1]

i went to a fundamentalist private school and was taught osas course in order to be saved i had to mean and really want it when i asked the holy spirit to come into my heart.now i see many things that were wrong with that school and ive been taking the journey home this year heck most of my family dosnt believe in osas there quaker it makes sense that osas is false well it does to me anyway tired now so any questions on why just post

 

[tqualey]

Hi, TinaG,

Given your misunderstanding of Paul C’s post and your on-going misunderstanding of the Catholic Church, maybe you have a good idea in departing … But, if you are going to leave - just leave … no need to storm out.

I would suggest you calm down and find another thread that is not as emotionally challenging. Leaving in a huff is does not do much for your position.

God bless and have a joyous Christmas.

paul c;8731850:

Tina, I hope you will take a step back and contemplate what I am telling you. Since you are being honest with yourself about being a sinner, you need to take concrete action to make amends in your life. You can’t just say, " Jesus will save me because I believe he will save me" Remember, a significant part of every gospel and epistle focuses on how to live the Christian life for a reason and no where will you find a statement that sin is okay. Don’t discount the value of the sacraments in giving you the grace you need to combat sin in your life and to be truly saved. /QUOTE]

You dredge up the old thing of “because I am saved I can party like hell”. That is about as accurate as if I said because you are Catholic you must be in the Mafia. If you had actually read any Reformed theology (instead of just listening to other Catholics talk about what other Catholics said about it, who never actually bothered reading it) you would be struck by the emphasis on holy living. As children of the king we are to act like it.

An amazing lack of logic. As good as saying because I like to go to the zoo, I want to be an animal in a cage, or a thousand other metaphors (because I like to get my hair done, I must want to be hair clippers, because I like to go to the museum, I want to be an exhibit?) I thank God for the Reformation and that I am freed from the rules and regulations that I see Catholics labor under, as you to my mind have returned to legalism out of the glorious freedom of the children of God.

I rejoice in the grace of God, poured upon my life. I thank God for the great gift He has given me, and I seek to be more like Christ every day. Perfect love casts out fear. I seek to please God who loves me and died for me and live for Him not for me.

There is the official teaching of the Catholic Church, and then there is what actually is taught by word and model in the various churches. Action speaks louder than words. And I think the Catholic Church has done a tremendous disservice to its own people in numerous ways, one of which is in its non-teaching of its people. One reason I am here is to learn something about Catholicism. The Catholics I know know little about it, and it makes me ever so much more grateful for doctrines like eternal security.

Since you guys have descended into more gratuitous Calvin-bashing and more contemptuous speculations about things you know little about, I am giving up on this thread.

See you around

-Tina “Not that I am Well Taught” G

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Odell,

Very well said.

God bless

Tina you accuse us of misrepresenting you. Well what you have said here is a huge miss representing you. What you have said is a gross miss representation of our believes. Legalism is when one obligates God to reward their actions. Catholicism does not teach this. We do understand however that God rewards us by His pure benevolence this is not the same as legalism.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Paul C,

As far as I can tell, you statements were clear - and, how she arrived at her statements is beyond me.

Whatever is involved with the posts, do not detract from the core issue: OSAS is a total invention from John Calvin who worked hard to distort Scripture to come up with any ‘Scriptural basis’ for this heresy. Christ’s encouragement for us to stand firm to the end (Matt 24:13) simply unmasks OSAS for the fraud it is.

God bless

I didnt say anything at all like that. You jumped to that conclusion totally on your own. Go back and look at what I actually said. I said you would benefit from the grace available in the sacraments.

Tina,
Are you really saying that coming on his forum is like going to the zoo? Do you really think of Catholics as being in some kind of cage, forced to labor under a series of rules and regulations? It really couldn’t be further from the truth. Simply put, the Church provides direction on how to gain grace and how to get to heaven. Its really not hard. You are called to partake of the sacraments and to love God and neighbor. If you are a child of God, this is what you want to do, so its no burden.

So what do you see yourself freed from? You say that you love God and Neighbor. Would it be a burden for you to go to mass and recieve Jesus bodily once per week? To abstain from meat on Fridays in Lent? To go to confession and be forgiven when you sin? What freedom do you really enjoy?

That is fantastic.

Catechism was surely a problem in my generation (I’m 51) but the church is doing much to fix that situation. This website is a good example of its efforts, as are Catholic radio and EWTN. But you can not judge the Church by those that don’t practice their faith. There are many, many devout Catholics in every parish. There are over 100 people at mass EVERY day in my parish, for instance, and anyone of them could explain the faith in great detail to you. Being grateful for doctrines like eternal security is believing a lie, though. Just because you like it doesn’t make it true.

That is of course your option. We are here to serve you, afterall. Remember, though. The credibility of a doctrine is completely tied up in the credibility of its author. If you believe that Calvin’s doctrines are the truth, you need to really understand why he would know the truth while everyone else was wrong for 1500 years. This is true with all religions. Mormonism stands or falls on the credibility of Joseph Smith in the same way…

That is completely up to you. We will be here.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, FutureCatholic1

Coming from such a background - where OSAS was part of the school’s curriculum … wow! Your coming home to Rome decision must have been a big step for you. Would you mind sharing what was the first realization that OSAS was false?

God bless and have a joyous Christmas

i went to a fundamentalist private school and was taught osas course in order to be saved i had to mean and really want it when i asked the holy spirit to come into my heart.now i see many things that were wrong with that school and ive been taking the journey home this year heck most of my family dosnt believe in osas there quaker it makes sense that osas is false well it does to me anyway tired now so any questions on why just post

 

[FutureCatholic1]

well i wouldn say it was in the curriculum but i went there from 4th grade until i graduated and they always said when you are saved you are always saved nothing can change that yes it has been a big step it has also been a very hard one but one i will continue to take the path to join the lords church as i think of it as, its hard to explain but i would not mind sharing i will warn some times i might be hard to follow

i haven’t thought much about osas in years until i came to this post and started reading but i started to have doubts about always being saved when i started to really study into what Catholics believe and teach and then i started to see for Catholics its not just faith tho faith is very important but there is logic to it (example- asking the saints to pray for us, logical if you believe that we are all alive in Christ and if you believe that you can ask other christians to pray for you) there is a logic to

it just makes since as i have read about it on the thread its logical and God is logical not illogical is it logical to let someone believe in you but not do what you required of them then to reward them no is is it logical that if you believe in God and do what he tells us to do to the best of our abilitys that we can hope for his mercy i think so

its just logical i do have faith on the churches teachings a well grounded faith you can trace our current pope back to peter you can see in the bible were our lord will protect his church from error there fore it would make sense that what the church teaches would be correct but what is the logical proof fr osas

sorry if i didnt make sense if i didnt ask me to try to clarify and ill try im better at talking than typeing:thumbsup:

 

[FutureCatholic1]

i guess this thread is what made me clarify my position on osas what sig said did not seem logical as opposed to what others posted

i loe logic and reason so far on my way into the the catholic church i have come with a open mind as i like to say and i see the logic and reason in what catholics believe i will state forgive me if i come across pride ful but i have always had a wellspring of faith i saw proof in how the church could prove that they are the original church founded by christ through peter then i could let my faith take hold but i still see logic in what the catholic church teaches