SPLIT: Opposition: Penance & Confession

[E.E.N.S]

This is getting tiring. Who wants to take over in my stead arguing with an person who can only use poor strawmen and cannot answer a direct question? Any takers? I have MORE than shown him the error of his ways, but he refuses to acknowledge anything.

DLClark:

You must have not read my last lessage very well. I did answer your question.
*I read the Bible and it says that the Word of God the Bible is fom God and we are not add to it. That is good enough for me. Who am I to argue with the creator. *

Jesus will never controdict Himself. You make it out that He does. You say Jesus says we are saved by works then we are not saved by works.

You do not really believe that John 3:16-18 is correct. If you did then you would believe what it says. Is it true then that aperson has eternal live and will never perish when they put their faith in Christ as John says to do? You do not believe this because whent right John 6 at added eating as part of salvation. I asked about John 3:16-18 not John 6.

Jesys is not says that we must eat His flesh to be saved. Eating and drinking is a metaphor for faith in God. John 6:29, 47. Jesus is talking about faith not eating.

Also it is very interesting that Paul said he was taught from Christ Himself. In 1 Cor. 15:1-4 Paul tells us what the gospel message is that he was taught and it is interesting to see that water baptism, communion, works, church membership is not mentioned.

If a person does what Jesus says in John 3:16-18 will that receive eternal life and not perish, Yes or NO?

Now it makes a bit more sense, I am dealing with someone who isn’t the sharpest tool in the shed. Don’t tell me what I believe and don’t believe, you have no clue what you’re talking about.

Also, saying you believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God because it says so (which it doesn’t say what you think it does) if HIGHLY illogical. Take this for example: What if you found another book that claimed to be inspired of God, would you believe it? Of course not, so saying you believe because it says so is not a real answer. You need to take time and think about this more.

Never did I say that Jesus or Scripture contradicted itself. No, rather I said that your misinterpretation would cause for this contradiction. READ.

I dare say a man who is intellectually dishonest isn’t a man at all.

If you can’t answer me honestly and read the verses I gave you MANY MANY times now, do NOT respond at all. I don’t like trying to help someone who doesn’t want help, and will not even be honest for 2 seconds about it.

I pray that you open your eyes and heart to the Truth of Christ, His Scripture and His Church.

**Again, if you don’t DIRECTLY address Matt 7, Matt 25, and James 2…do NOT bother replying to me as you are wasting my time.

God bless.

 

[adstrinity]

What will your gain from abstaining from meat on Friday? Why choose Friday and not another day of the week? Why not abstain all year long from meat?

1. Dependance on God because I’m not giving in to my desires.
2. Have I not explained this before? It’s because Jesus died on a Friday. Because Jesus died on a Friday, it is a day of mourning and we act accordingly. Because Jesus rose on a Sunday we celebrate every Sunday by going to church. We can fast and or abstain any time we like. Padre Pio, I think, fasted completly on Wednesdays & Fridays. I think the Orthodox abstain throughout the year on Wednesdays and Fridays.
3. We can abstain all year long; some people do as a form of pennance, and, technically, they fufill the requirement, though, it is encouraged to do more pennance then, on a Friday. Many Saints didn’t eat meat.

 

[E.E.N.S]

If a person does what Jesus says in John 3:16-18 will that receive eternal life and not perish, Yes or NO?

Yes! And this is my point, WE MUST DO WHAT CHRIST TELLS US! Not just believe in Him, but DO WHAT HE SAYS TO DO.

Here, I will post these again, even though you are a master of dodging issues.

Matt 25:
41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.
46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

Matt 7:
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. 24 Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock, 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these my words, and doth them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand, 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell, and great was the fall thereof.

And also James 2:
24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? <----Address this DLClark! Then, after you have done so, begin addressing the MANY other verses I have given you over the MANY posts and PM’s. If you CANNOT do this, then please go bother someone else with your dishonesty.

 

[E.E.N.S]

DLClark just PM’ed me (again!) with this:

DLClark:

Did Jesus say in John 3:16 that when we have faith in Him we have eternal life and will never perish? Is this true?

How many times do I have to answer your questions before you are satisfied??

Do us all a favor and just read through the thread…there is nothing that you have asked that hasn’t already been answered multiple times.

This is going to be my coined response to you until you acknowledge the rest of the answers you have received from us: “This has already been answered. Read the thread. Start with page 1.”

 

[Marsha_Adams]

This is getting tiring. Who wants to take over in my stead arguing with an person who can only use poor strawmen and cannot answer a direct question? Any takers? I have MORE than shown him the error of his ways, but he refuses to acknowledge anything.
God bless.

EENS:

Just put DL on ignore and walk away. Remember what the Bible says:

Matthew 7:6
"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

 

[jmcrae]

What will your gain from abstaining from meat on Friday?

The virtue of self-control.

Why choose Friday and not another day of the week?

Because it was on a Friday that Jesus gave up His “carne” (His flesh) for our sins - so we give up “carne” (flesh meat) on Fridays in order to, in a symbolic manner, join our bodies with His on the Cross.

Why not abstain all year long from meat?

Because there are also days of rejoicing in the life of Christ that we also celebrate, such as His birth, and His Resurrection, when it is appropriate to feast.

 

[Hyacinth_II]

My question still stands. Show me a verse that says we must do penance in order to have our sins forgiven? Is John 3:16 correct in that when a person believed in Christ, he will never perish but have eternal life?

Since you are Protestant, I’d like to explain. Jesus “forgives us” our sins, but our soul is still not “pure” it carries the stain of sin. If a person were to die with the “stain of sin” on their soul, they could not go before the presence of God, because God is perfect. We too, must be perfect. This is what purgatory is for, to purify our souls and get rid of that “stain of sin”. Once our souls are purged (purgatory-purged) of the stain, we can enter into the presence of God. An imperfect soul cannot withstand being in the presence of perfection.

While on earth, we can also work to remove the “stain of sin”. This is done through “mortification”. “Mortification” is accomplished many ways, one way is through penance. Giving up something you usually enjoy, is penance. Thus, many of us give up eating meat on Friday…to help “purify” us and ready us to go before God and commune with HIm. (Shortens time in purgatory.)

I hope this helps you understand what we are doing.

Original question was…what do you do? I don’t eat meat, it is the easiest for me to remember.

 

[Hyacinth_II]

This talking about declaring what the Bible says. God says when we believe in christ our sins are forgiven. We declare this to others in the same way. We say that your sin are forgiven when you believe in Christ. All those saved by faith in Christ have the authroity to say this. It does not mean we can forgive sins. Only God does this because He is the one who is offended, not man. .

Since you are Protestant, I’d like to explain. Jesus “forgives us” our sins, but our soul is still not “pure” it carries the stain of sin. If a person were to die with the “stain of sin” on their soul, they could not go before the presence of God, because God is perfect. We too, must be perfect. This is what purgatory is for, to purify our souls and get rid of that “stain of sin”. Once our souls are purged (purgatory-purged) of the stain, we can enter into the presence of God. An imperfect soul cannot withstand being in the presence of perfection.

While on earth, we can also work to remove the “stain of sin”. This is done through “mortification”. “Mortification” is accomplished many ways, one way is through penance. Giving up something you usually enjoy, is penance. Thus, many of us give up eating meat on Friday…to help “purify” us and ready us to go before God and commune with HIm. (Shortens time in purgatory.)

I hope this helps you understand what we are doing.

Now, people in previous replies have given scripture quotes where Jesus Himself told us to do penance. The apostles and disciples all did penance…most of them did severe penance like wearing clothing that was very itchy, scratchy, etc. Not everyting that these early Christians did is in the Bible. Even John stated that Jesus did much more than what they (the Evangalists) wrote about. They only wrote enough so that we would believe. Hey, they didn’t have computers or even typewriters back then…writing was a lot of work. A lot of things were passed down by oral tradition…knowledge that the Catholic Church has.
We are the church that Jesus Himself started.

Original question was…what do you do? I don’t eat meat, it is the easiest for me to remember.

 

[Hyacinth_II]

What will your gain from abstaining from meat on Friday? Why choose Friday and not another day of the week? Why not abstain all year long from meat?

OK, I answered your first question in my last post. We choose Friday because Our Lord died on Friday… we can also meditate on that. Meditation, or contemptative prayer brings us closer to God. Catholics have many different kinds and ways to pray. You’ll have to get to know us better to find out more about that.

Why not abstain all year long from meat? Well, that would be difficult to do if you are not a vegetarian. If you are a vegetarian and already abstain from eating meat…then abstaining from eating meat on Friday is not penance…and you need to do something else. You see, you can fool you neighbors, other humans…you and even fool yourself. But you can’t fool God. He sees into your heart and knows you intimately. If you want to reduce your time in purgatory…do penance.

Would you like to get to know us better? Here is a TV station that broadcasts on the web. Many of your questions will be answered.

www.ewtn.com

Top banner …pull down menu to television…

 

[LilyM]

OK, I answered your first question in my last post. We choose Friday because Our Lord died on Friday… we can also meditate on that. Meditation, or contemptative prayer brings us closer to God. Catholics have many different kinds and ways to pray. You’ll have to get to know us better to find out more about that.

Why not abstain all year long from meat? Well, that would be difficult to do if you are not a vegetarian. If you are a vegetarian and already abstain from eating meat…then abstaining from eating meat on Friday is not penance…and you need to do something else. You see, you can fool you neighbors, other humans…you and even fool yourself. But you can’t fool God. He sees into your heart and knows you intimately. If you want to reduce your time in purgatory…do penance.

My understanding is that at least in the early days St Francis either required his brothers to abstain from meat permanently (as long as their health wasn’t affected) or only eat it very rarely. I think the question as to whether it is a penance or not is answered by the motivation behind it.

For example - if I choose not to watch tv - even permanently - because I don’t like any of the programs, that’s not penance. If I choose not to watch it because I’m deaf and blind, that’s a deprivation but not really a penance. If, however, I consciously choose to avoid TV in order to honour God and come closer to Christ, that IS penance.

So if someone adopts a permanent vegetarian diet out of concern for the suffering of animals, or because they think it’s healthier (but don’t need to do so), or because they simply don’t like the taste of meat, that’s not penance. If they instead choose not to eat meat out of love for God and as a means of mortifying their flesh, then it IS a penance.

 

[Hyacinth_II]

My understanding is that at least in the early days St Francis either required his brothers to abstain from meat permanently (as long as their health wasn’t affected) or only eat it very rarely. I think the question as to whether it is a penance or not is answered by the motivation behind it.

For example - if I choose not to watch tv - even permanently - because I don’t like any of the programs, that’s not penance. If I choose not to watch it because I’m deaf and blind, that’s a deprivation but not really a penance. If, however, I consciously choose to avoid TV in order to honour God and come closer to Christ, that IS penance.

So if someone adopts a permanent vegetarian diet out of concern for the suffering of animals, or because they think it’s healthier (but don’t need to do so), or because they simply don’t like the taste of meat, that’s not penance. If they instead choose not to eat meat out of love for God and as a means of mortifying their flesh, then it IS a penance.

I agree with you completely. I was trying to keep it simple for our Protestant friend…but, thank you for clarifying things, you were a great help!

 

[DLClark]

DL that is not what the Bible says. John 20:23.

Only god can judicially forgive our sins. Man has no power to do this because man is not sinned against in reality. Only God is sinned against.

Forgiveness of sins is one of the major benefits of the death of Christ. It is the essence of the New Covenant (matt 26:28). Procaliming forgivenss of sins was the prominent feature of the apostolic preaching, in Acts. Jesus was giving the apostles (by extension all believers) the priviledge of announcing heaven’s terms on how a person can receive frogivenss. If a person believes in Christ faith alone, the Christians have the right to announce that his forgiveness. If a person rejects Christ (by not palcing thir faith in Him or by adding works to salvation), then a Christian can announce that that person is not forgivens. This passage has nothing to do with man being able to forgive sins. Only God can do that. Christians saved by faith in Christ only announce or stated what God has done for them through Christ.

Believers can only announce, never forgive, the conditions for forgiveness. There in one condition for forgiveness and that is faith alone in Christ. When a person does this their sins are forgiven.

We do not need to go to a preist for forgiveness. Each believer can go directly to God because of what Christ has done for them on the cross.
Christ is our Mediator and Advocate. Not a human priest.
1 Tim 2:4-6
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all,
NASU

1 John 2:1-2
A My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
NASU

 

[DLClark]

Since you are Protestant, I’d like to explain. Jesus “forgives us” our sins, but our soul is still not “pure” it carries the stain of sin. If a person were to die with the “stain of sin” on their soul, they could not go before the presence of God, because God is perfect. We too, must be perfect. This is what purgatory is for, to purify our souls and get rid of that “stain of sin”. Once our souls are purged (purgatory-purged) of the stain, we can enter into the presence of God. An imperfect soul cannot withstand being in the presence of perfection.

While on earth, we can also work to remove the “stain of sin”. This is done through “mortification”. “Mortification” is accomplished many ways, one way is through penance. Giving up something you usually enjoy, is penance. Thus, many of us give up eating meat on Friday…to help “purify” us and ready us to go before God and commune with HIm. (Shortens time in purgatory.)

I hope this helps you understand what we are doing.

Now, people in previous replies have given scripture quotes where Jesus Himself told us to do penance. The apostles and disciples all did penance…most of them did severe penance like wearing clothing that was very itchy, scratchy, etc. Not everyting that these early Christians did is in the Bible. Even John stated that Jesus did much more than what they (the Evangalists) wrote about. They only wrote enough so that we would believe. Hey, they didn’t have computers or even typewriters back then…writing was a lot of work. A lot of things were passed down by oral tradition…knowledge that the Catholic Church has.
We are the church that Jesus Himself started.

Original question was…what do you do? I don’t eat meat, it is the easiest for me to remember.

Q. If we must practice mortification in order to receive the forgiveness of sins, how moritified do we have to be in oder to have our sins forgivens?

 

[DLClark]

My understanding is that at least in the early days St Francis either required his brothers to abstain from meat permanently (as long as their health wasn’t affected) or only eat it very rarely. I think the question as to whether it is a penance or not is answered by the motivation behind it.

For example - if I choose not to watch tv - even permanently - because I don’t like any of the programs, that’s not penance. If I choose not to watch it because I’m deaf and blind, that’s a deprivation but not really a penance. If, however, I consciously choose to avoid TV in order to honour God and come closer to Christ, that IS penance.

So if someone adopts a permanent vegetarian diet out of concern for the suffering of animals, or because they think it’s healthier (but don’t need to do so), or because they simply don’t like the taste of meat, that’s not penance. If they instead choose not to eat meat out of love for God and as a means of mortifying their flesh, then it IS a penance.

Q. If we must practice mortification in order to receive the forgiveness of sins, how moritified do we have to be in order to have our sins forgivens?

 

[DLClark]

DL that is not what the Bible says. John 20:23.

Q. If we must practice mortification in order to receive the forgiveness of sins, how moritified do we have to be in order to have our sins forgivens?

 

[DLClark]

More dodging by DLClark…

LOL, yo did not answer my questions…AND you make false assumptions. You are really something else…

I asked why you believe in the Bible…unanswered.
I asked how you can fit all the other sayings of Jesus with your misunderstanding of John 3:16…unanswered.
I asked many other things, yet you refuse to answer them or even address them in anyway.

I realize that it is hard to answer these questions when you are not very familiar with Scripture, history or even Christianity, but you could at least be honest with yourself and try.

Q. If we must practice mortification in order to receive the forgiveness of sins, how moritified do we have to be in order to have our sins forgivens?

 

[Tomster]

Q. If we must practice mortification in order to receive the forgiveness of sins, how moritified do we have to be in order to have our sins forgivens?

Christ, head and members, offers the sacrifice, but Christ, head and members, offers himself, and we, in union with our Head, are victims too. St. Paul has told us that we are “heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ, if, that is, we suffer with him, that with him we may also be glorified.” (Romans 8:17) We must share in his sufferings if we would share in his salvation. And in the epistle to the Colossians (1:24), St. Paul stresses the importance of our privilege: “Now I rejoice in my sufferings on your behalf, and make up in my flesh what is lacking to the sufferings of Christ, on behalf of his body, which is the Church, whereof I am become a minister.” So that as we are members of the one body, our sufferings, our prayers, our sacrifices, may further the application to others of what Christ alone has secured for all. “The Church,” says St. Augustine, “which is the body of which he is the head, learns to offer herself through him.” “The whole redeemed city, that is, the congregation and society of the saints, is the universal sacrifice which is offered to God by the High Priest.”

“I exhort you therefore, brethren,” writes St. Paul (Romans 12:1), “by the compassion of God, to present your bodies a sacrifice, living, holy, well-pleasing to God, your spiritual service.” Since we are members of Christ our sufferings, united with the offering of Christ, acquire a value in the carrying out of Christ’s purpose in the world which they could never have of themselves. Our mortifications, our fastings, our almsdeeds are seen to have a range of effective influence in the Mystical Body, however trifling they may appear in themselves. The Lenten Fast, for example, is no mere personal obligation: the Church calls upon her children to do their share in furthering the interests of Christ in the world, insists they should not be merely passengers in the barque of Peter, but should pull their weight; for they too have benefited and are benefiting from the fastings and prayers of God’s holy servants throughout the world. The call to reparation on behalf of others is bound up with the privileges we enjoy through our solidarity with our fellow members of the Mystical Body of Christ.

Hope this helps! :tiphat:

 

[jmcrae]

Only god can judicially forgive our sins. Man has no power to do this because man is not sinned against in reality. Only God is sinned against.

First, you’re disagreeing with Jesus Christ, who directly told the Apostles, “Whose sins ye forgive are forgiven; whose sins ye retain are retained.” The Apostles were men, and Jesus was commanding them to forgive sins.

Jesus also told the Apostles to announce the Kingdom of God and to spread the Gospel, but that was a separate command. He did that in Matthew 28:16-20.

Forgiveness of sins is one of the major benefits of the death of Christ. It is the essence of the New Covenant (matt 26:28). Procaliming forgivenss of sins was the prominent feature of the apostolic preaching, in Acts. Jesus was giving the apostles (by extension all believers) the priviledge of announcing heaven’s terms on how a person can receive frogivenss.

Right - they continued the Tradition of Christ, in the Church.

If a person believes in Christ faith alone,

This concept does not exist in Scripture.

the Christians have the right to announce that his forgiveness. If a person rejects Christ (by not palcing thir faith in Him or by adding works to salvation),

Seriously, you need to read the Letter of James. There is no salvation without works - indeed, faith itself is a work, and faith without works is dead.

Believers can only announce, never forgive, the conditions for forgiveness. There in one condition for forgiveness and that is faith alone in Christ. When a person does this their sins are forgiven.

This is a self-invented belief that does not exist anywhere in the Bible or in the Holy Tradition.

By the way, I recently found out what Martin Luther meant by the phrase “faith alone” (and he was still wrong, but he didn’t mean what most modern Protestants think he meant) - he meant, that faith that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, and to receive the Eucharist in that faith, is sufficient to wash away your sins, without the need to go to Confession beforehand.

 

[Tomster]

My question still stands. Show me a verse that says we must do penance in order to have our sins forgiven? Is John 3:16 correct in that when a person believed in Christ, he will never perish but have eternal life?

As with justification, good works done with faith in the grace of Christ are a cause of our salvation. Scripture never says that good works flow from those who are saved. Scripture also never teaches that good works distinguish those who are eternally saved from those who are not saved. Nevertheless, Protestants, like yourself, generally say that one only has to believe in Jesus to be saved. Verses like John 3:16, John 5:24, 1 John 5:13, Romans 4:24 and Romans 10: 9-10 are usually used by Protestants to support their claim.

However, those who use these verses to prove “salvation by faith alone,” fail to acknowledge that the word “believes” in these verses is a word that also includes “obedience.” Obedience is separate from faith, and something that must be added to faith in order to achieve salvific justification. Therefore, when these verses say that we have to “believe” in Jesus, they are not referring to accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior by “faith alone.” Cf: 1 Peter 2:7-8, John 3:36, Hebrews 5:9.

Believing in Jesus means OBEYING Jesus, and OBEYING Jesus means doing the good works He commands us to do. Belief includes works of OBEDIENCE, and not faith alone. If our belief in Jesus is expressed in OBDIENCE to Him by doing His works of love, we will inherit eternal life.

If salvation were based on faith alone, God would not judge our deeds to determine that salvation.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[DLClark]

Christ, head and members, offers the sacrifice, but Christ, head and members, offers himself, and we, in union with our Head, are victims too. St. Paul has told us that we are “heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ, if, that is, we suffer with him, that with him we may also be glorified.” (Romans 8:17) We must share in his sufferings if we would share in his salvation. And in the epistle to the Colossians (1:24), St. Paul stresses the importance of our privilege: “Now I rejoice in my sufferings on your behalf, and make up in my flesh what is lacking to the sufferings of Christ, on behalf of his body, which is the Church, whereof I am become a minister.” So that as we are members of the one body, our sufferings, our prayers, our sacrifices, may further the application to others of what Christ alone has secured for all. “The Church,” says St. Augustine, “which is the body of which he is the head, learns to offer herself through him.” “The whole redeemed city, that is, the congregation and society of the saints, is the universal sacrifice which is offered to God by the High Priest.”

“I exhort you therefore, brethren,” writes St. Paul (Romans 12:1), “by the compassion of God, to present your bodies a sacrifice, living, holy, well-pleasing to God, your spiritual service.” Since we are members of Christ our sufferings, united with the offering of Christ, acquire a value in the carrying out of Christ’s purpose in the world which they could never have of themselves. Our mortifications, our fastings, our almsdeeds are seen to have a range of effective influence in the Mystical Body, however trifling they may appear in themselves. The Lenten Fast, for example, is no mere personal obligation: the Church calls upon her children to do their share in furthering the interests of Christ in the world, insists they should not be merely passengers in the barque of Peter, but should pull their weight; for they too have benefited and are benefiting from the fastings and prayers of God’s holy servants throughout the world. The call to reparation on behalf of others is bound up with the privileges we enjoy through our solidarity with our fellow members of the Mystical Body of Christ.

Hope this helps! :tiphat:

You have not addressed my question. You just stated why you think penance is needed. I would like to know this:Q. If we must practice mortification in order to receive the forgiveness of sins, how moritified do we have to be in order to have our sins forgivens?