SPLIT: Opposition: Penance & Confession

  • Thread starter Thread starter DLClark
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
None of verse you are using use the word penance. It does use the word repent though.

Question for.
Is John 3:16 correct when Jesus said that when a person believes in Him he will be saved, have eternalife, and never perish? Is this correct here or not?
How can you ask whether it’s correct or not? You know, when Jesus said that (John 3:16 ), He was saying that in order to be saved, FIRST, a person must come to know Jesus, and believed in Him. It doesn’t end in there, no! That is the first step, by believing in Jesus, who gives eternal life…but it doesn’t end in there! He provide for us means for the reparation of our sins, and one of it is through penance!

You are trying to tell us here that only by believing in Jesus, and tell people that you are a Christian, and let Christ do the job for you, without any good works from your part that you are assured of heaven, is totally unsatisfactory!

The greatest penance ever done for sinners is through the sufffering of Christ in His last hour…of His passion and death on the cross to redeem us, sinners. And thats happened on Friday!
:cool:
Peace!
 
40.png
DLClark:
Show me from the Bible where mortification is the basis for the forgivenss of sins. Have you done enough moritification to have your sins forgiven?
Nobody said that mortification is the BASIS for the forgiveness of sins - YOU MADE THIS UP! The basis for the forgivness of sins is the death and ressurection of Our Lord. You can’t just continually take one aspect of something and leave out all the rest and think you have an accurate grasp it. Are you such a little and pathetic man that you have to continually dodge the questions and answers, and resort to strawmen arguments?
 
God said that He is the only one who can forgive sins.
Q.What is the bases for man forgiving another man his sins since both are sinners? How can one sinner forgive another sinner? It is impossible.
Q. Are you as righteous as God to think that you can forgive someone their sins?
Are you the offened party who that can forgive what someone else has done to you?
Q. Is there any record in the Bible of anyone ourside of God forgiving another person their sins?
Q. Is there ny record in the Bible other in salvation that someone said thier sins are forgiven that is out side of salvation.

Q. How can you forgive someone elses sins until you know that yours are forgiven first?
Q. How can man know for sure that his sins are forgiven?
This has already been answered. PLEASE READ THE THREAD! Start with post 1 and go from there.
 
God said that He is the only one who can forgive sins.
Q.What is the bases for man forgiving another man his sins since both are sinners? How can one sinner forgive another sinner? It is impossible.
As impossible as God becoming Man - yet the angel told Mary her son would be God, and it was so. Jesus told the Apostles that they could declare peoples’ sins forgiven or retained, and they were.
Q. Are you as righteous as God to think that you can forgive someone their sins?
Are you the offened party who that can forgive what someone else has done to you?
Was the prophet Nathan in the Old Testament as righteous as God? Did David in the Old Testament offend against Nathan the prophet who denounced his sins of adultery and murder? No.

And yet - it was this very same Nathan who TOLD David that God had forgiven him after his repentance - who declared David’s sin forgiven in God’s name. Obviously David needed this reassurance for some reason in spite of all his faith in God. And so do we.

Of course in the New Testament Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive and retain sins - and they used it, as Jesus wasn’t just spouting hot air when He declared that they had the power to forgive and retain sins. Example: when James urges us to confess our sins to one another, clearly for the purpose of obtaining absolution.
Q. Is there any record in the Bible of anyone ourside of God forgiving another person their sins?
See Nathan above. He does exactly what our priests do - declares, and that truly, in God’s name, our sins forgiven. Of course the Apostles, and our priests, are granted the power to declare them retained as well. And we have an example of this power to retain in Peter’s declaration to Annias and Sapphira that they would die in their sins, which they both promptly did.

You think if Peter had instead said that they were forgiven that somehow he would’ve been wrong? Impossible that he lacked the power to forgive, when he so clearly had the power to retain.
Q. Is there ny record in the Bible other in salvation that someone said thier sins are forgiven that is out side of salvation.
This question is phrased so poorly as to be meaningless. What are you trying to say here?
Q. How can you forgive someone elses sins until you know that yours are forgiven first?
Q. How can man know for sure that his sins are forgiven?
Priests can forgive without having been forgiven in the same way Paul said he could save others yet also said that he himself could be disqualified from salvation. God’s grace doesn’t require an already- sinless soul to operate through - otherwise no one could save (as Paul said he had saved ‘some’) - or even BE saved!

Man can know for sure in at least one way - by trusting in Christ’s promise to His Apostles (and those to whom they passed on this power) that whose sins they forgive are indeed forgiven.
 
God said that He is the only one who can forgive sins.
Q.What is the bases for man forgiving another man his sins since both are sinners? How can one sinner forgive another sinner? It is impossible.
Q. Are you as righteous as God to think that you can forgive someone their sins?
Are you the offened party who that can forgive what someone else has done to you?
Q. Is there any record in the Bible of anyone ourside of God forgiving another person their sins?
Q. Is there ny record in the Bible other in salvation that someone said thier sins are forgiven that is out side of salvation.

Q. How can you forgive someone elses sins until you know that yours are forgiven first?
Q. How can man know for sure that his sins are forgiven?
Grace and Peace,

Our Lord instituted the Sacrament of Penance on the day of His resurrection, when He spoke these words to His apostles: “Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained” (John xx.23).

With these words Christ on the one hand imparted to the apostles the power to remit sins, and on the other laid upon the faithful the injunction to confess their sins to a priest in order to obtain the remission of them.

Peace.
 
DL:

If we are saved by faith alone, how much faith do we have to have to be saved?
I love this! 👍 I’m going to have to use it on one of my protestant friends that reminds me of our friend DL! 😛 Thanks!
MyCatholicHeart:heart:
 
Originally Posted by adstrinity
OOOOH! How rich! Who said that only God can forgive sins? The Jews. Were they correct? Yes, yes, at that time they were. God is the One who forgives, which is why we know Jesus is God.

So, if God, as has been pointed out in the Bible, gave His Authority to mere men to have the authority to forgive sins, on behalf of God, they can tell a person if his or her sins are forgiven OR NOT.

God said that He is the only one who can forgive sins.
Q.What is the bases for man forgiving another man his sins since both are sinners? How can one sinner forgive another sinner? It is impossible.
Q. Are you as righteous as God to think that you can forgive someone their sins?
Are you the offened party who that can forgive what someone else has done to you?
Q. Is there any record in the Bible of anyone ourside of God forgiving another person their sins?
Q. Is there ny record in the Bible other in salvation that someone said thier sins are forgiven that is out side of salvation.

Q. How can you forgive someone elses sins until you know that yours are forgiven first?
Q. How can man know for sure that his sins are forgiven?
“The father prayer”
Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sins against us"
*about penance i just find it better to not eat meat on fridays, and i mostly fast on saturday, keeping the sabbath day holy.
 
God said that He is the only one who can forgive sins.
Q.What is the bases for man forgiving another man his sins since both are sinners? How can one sinner forgive another sinner? It is impossible.
Q. Are you as righteous as God to think that you can forgive someone their sins?
Are you the offened party who that can forgive what someone else has done to you?
Q. Is there any record in the Bible of anyone ourside of God forgiving another person their sins?
Q. Is there ny record in the Bible other in salvation that someone said thier sins are forgiven that is out side of salvation.

Q. How can you forgive someone elses sins until you know that yours are forgiven first?
Q. How can man know for sure that his sins are forgiven?
D.L.,

Take a deep breath. Slow down. Put your Protestant bias on a shelf for awhile. Say a prayer, read this slowly and THINK! The key word here is THINK.

Jesus Christ instituted the sacrament of penance as the normative way to forgive sins. In the early Church, penitents had to confess their sins orally before the Church assembly. In Acts 19:18 Luke writes, "Many also of those who were now believers came, confessing and divulging their practices’ before the apostles. This verse alludes to the practice of the early Church, where people had to confess their sins publicly. The disciples of John the Baptist also confessed their sins to John as he baptised them in the Jordan River.

Over time the administration of the sacrament gradually evolved to allow the penitent to privately confess sins to the priest. We see evidence of this at the end of the of the first millennium. Thus, today, the sacrament is administered by having the penitent privately confess his sins to a priest. The priest gives the penitent a penance (prayers or works of charity) and gives the penitent absolution, which is the priestly act of forgiving the sins “IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER AND OF THE SON AND OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.”

Are you with with me so far?

Non-Catholic Christians immediately look at this and, like the scribes and Pharisees, say, “But only God forgives sins!” They are correct. However, when Catholics confess their sins to a priest in this sacrament, they ARE confessing their sins to God. ONLY GOD CAN FORGIVE SINS, BUT HE DECIDES HOW HE WANTS US TO OBTAIN THAT FORGIVENESS.

Do you get it? Do you understand?

Jesus Christ gave His apostles the authority to bind and loose as we have stated numerous times to you on this thread giving you the Scriptural evidence. He entrusted them His power to forgive sins. This is why Jesus emphasized the He forgave sins as a man, when He says, “But that you may know that Son of man has the authority on earth to forgive sins.” Just as God entrusted the forgiveness of sins to Jesus as a man, so Jesus entrusts the forgiveness of sins to His apostles and their successors, as men. Hence, in explaining the gift of forgiving sins, Matthew writes that God, “had given such authority to men.” (Matthew 9:8)

Forgiveness of sin depends on the sinner’s desire to be forgiven (a desire that is expressed aloud, as the apostles could not read the minds of the penitents). If oral confession were not required, the way that Jesus granted the gift to the apostles would not make any sense. Hence, John says, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). In describing this priestly gift, Paul says that God “gave us the ministry of reconciliation” (2 Corinthians 5:18).

YA FOLLA ME? :hey_bud:
 
Bwahahahahaha
Why do you think you have to do anything to pay for your sins? Christ payed the penalty for all your sins on the Cross. Thinking that we must do some act of penance to also pay for our sins undermines the work of Christ on the Cross on our behalf.
1 Peter 2:24-25
24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
NASU
 
Will you all please take this debate over to Apologetics where it belongs?
Why do you think you have to do anything to pay for your sins? Christ payed the penalty for all your sins on the Cross. Thinking that we must do some act of penance to also pay for our sins undermines the work of Christ on the Cross on our behalf.
1 Peter 2:24-25
24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
NASU
 
40.png
DLClark:
That is not true. In an earlier blog it was say that we must do acts of mortification if our sins are to be forgiven.
Why do you think you have to do anything to pay for your sins? Christ payed the penalty for all your sins on the Cross. Thinking that we must do some act of penance to also pay for our sins undermines the work of Christ on the Cross on our behalf.
1 Peter 2:24-25
24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
NASU
It IS true…you just choose to ignore the rest of Scripture! Shame on you for calling yourself a Christian!

I have given you MANY verses where both Jesus and the Apostles tell us what we must DO in order to be saved…and you ignored it every time. Do you want anyone to take you seriously??

Jesus says that those who feed the hungry, cloth the naked, etc., etc., will be saved…and He also says that those who don’t do these things will go to hell. These are actions, are they not? Have you ever read Matt 25? Or Matt 7?

Honestly, I have given you FAR MORE than you deserve. Perhaps it’s time for me to shake the dust off of my sandals and be done with you.

One day your eyes will be opened to the Truth of Christ…hopefully before you die so you can repent. This kind of blatant twisting of Scripture is a very dangerous game you play with your soul and the souls of those who you may influence. You need to stop for your own good.
 
It IS true…you just choose to ignore the rest of Scripture! Shame on you for calling yourself a Christian!

I have given you MANY verses where both Jesus and the Apostles tell us what we must DO in order to be saved…and you ignored it every time. Do you want anyone to take you seriously??

Jesus says that those who feed the hungry, cloth the naked, etc., etc., will be saved…and He also says that those who don’t do these things will go to hell. These are actions, are they not? Have you ever read Matt 25? Or Matt 7?

Honestly, I have given you FAR MORE than you deserve. Perhaps it’s time for me to shake the dust off of my sandals and be done with you.

One day your eyes will be opened to the Truth of Christ…hopefully before you die so you can repent. This kind of blatant twisting of Scripture is a very dangerous game you play with your soul and the souls of those who you may influence. You need to stop for your own good.
Did you know that all of your sins are forgiven through the cross? this forgivenss is that of eternal damnation. No sin will ever send the true believer to hell. If you think so provide for me one verse to support your belief. If you ask me from one to support what I said will but it will just prove to me that you do not know your bible very well. The Bible does says that fro a true believer all their sins are forgiven. Col 2:13

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
KJV

Eph 1:7-8
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us.
NASU

2 Cor 5:19
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
NASU

Eph 4:31-5:1
32 Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

NASU

1 John 2:12-13

12 I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake.
NASU
 
DLClark, add to my post [above] #34, 35, 40, and 42 to posts you did not directly reply to. There are verses in Scripture which you simply ignore. I want you to address these verses directly and tell my your personal interpretation of them.

Tell me how “you will be judged according to your works” means “you will NOT be judged according to your works” to you…

Tell me how “you are saved by works, and not by faith alone” means “you are NOT saved by works, but by faith alone” to you…

Tell me how “when you fast.…” means “you don’t need to fast…” to you…

Tell me how in Matt 25 when Jesus says that those who do not perform works of charity will be cast into hell, *means just the opposite to you…
*
…and please, address them all, and start from page one, as you have dodged nearly EVERYTHING thus far! If you are right, you shouldn’t have a problem addressing the verses provided, after all Scripture doesn’t contradict itself.
not one of the verse you use said that if practice penance our sins will be forgiven, do they?
 
The virtue of self-control.

Because it was on a Friday that Jesus gave up His “carne” (His flesh) for our sins - so we give up “carne” (flesh meat) on Fridays in order to, in a symbolic manner, join our bodies with His on the Cross.

Because there are also days of rejoicing in the life of Christ that we also celebrate, such as His birth, and His Resurrection, when it is appropriate to feast. 🙂
How will absaining from meat give you virtue of self controll? Does the Bible say that if you abstain from meat we will have self control?
 
…

Some Verses in the Douay Rheims not translated in other sources this way.

But unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish. Luke 13:3
And God indeed having winked at times of this ignorance, now delcareth unto men, that all should everywhere do penance. Because he hath appointed a day, wherein he will judge the world in equity, by by man whom he hath appointed; giving faith to all, by raising him up from the dead Acts 17:30-31
Therefore will I judge everyman according to his ways, O house of Israel, saith the Lord God. Be converted, and do penance for all your enequities: and iniquity shall not be your ruin, Ezechial 18:30
And in those days cometh John the Baptist, preaching in the desert of judea. And saying: Do penance: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Mat 3:12
But I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first charity. Be mindufl, therefore, from whence thou art fallen: and do penance and do the first works. Or else I come to thee, and will move thy candelstick out of its place, except thou do penance Rev 2:4-5
But I have against thee a few things: because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat, and to commit fornication: So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaites. In like manner**, do penance**: if not, I come to thee quickl, and will fight against them with the sword of mouth. Rev 2:14-16
Be watchful and strengthen the things that remain, which are ready to die. For I find not thy works full before my God. Have in mind therefore in what manner thou has received and heard: and observe, and do penance. Rev 3:2-3
the word penance in the greek is repentance. I f you do not believe me look it up or I can show you.
 
Did you know that all of your sins are forgiven through the cross? this forgivenss is that of eternal damnation. No sin will ever send the true believer to hell. If you think so provide for me one verse to support your belief. If you ask me from one to support what I said will but it will just prove to me that you do not know your bible very well. The Bible does says that fro a true believer all their sins are forgiven. Col 2:13

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
KJV

Eph 1:7-8
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us.
NASU

2 Cor 5:19
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
NASU

Eph 4:31-5:1
32 Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

NASU

1 John 2:12-13

12 I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake.
NASU
I seem to recall that somewhere in the New Testament it says that nothing unclean shall enter heaven. I’ll let you look it up.

After looking it up, I’m sure you will give us your own personal, infallible interpretation of it. Can’t wait. :hey_bud:
 
DLClark is incapable of carrying on an honest conversation. This is the first time in history that I have ever put someone on ignore.
 
I seem to recall that somewhere in the New Testament it says that nothing unclean shall enter heaven. I’ll let you look it up.

After looking it up, I’m sure you will give us your own personal, infallible interpretation of it. Can’t wait. :hey_bud:
Are you clean or unclean?
 
DLClark is incapable of carrying on an honest conversation. This is the first time in history that I have ever put someone on ignore.
Hmm…since I have never done this I don’t know if it’s even possible.

At least everyone here knows that DLClark has had his questions answered, and that I tried to help him, but there comes a point where a person is so unreasonable that there is nothing you can do but pray for the poor soul.

DLClark, I know you don’t actually read these fora, (and if you do, you do a wonderful job at ignoring everything anyone has said!), but rest assured you will be prayed for…I may despise you and you immature “tactics”, but I will pray for you.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top