Split:OSAS (from Father Corapi ... on Baptism & Protestants)

[guanophore]

Again, you impose your misunderstanding upon the Scripture to support your bias towards your religion rather than seeking what God actually says in His word.

Actually, what we do is read the Word with our Apostolic lenses on our eyes. When we do this, we can understand what was written in the light of the Teachings of the Apostles. There is no separation between the Sacred Tradition, and the Sacred Scripture, so there will not be an “either/or”. It seems that way to those who have been separated from the Apostles’ teaching, and are gleaning what they can from the Scripture.

You have the ability to take what I say and test it against your religious teachings, so if you do the same with whatever you are taught, but put it in the light and context of Scripture; you might reach different conclusions about many things. This is what I and others would encourage everyone to do.

It sounds like you are setting up a false dichotomy between what the Church teaches, and the Scripture. No such dichotomy exists. The Teachings of the Apostles are represented like a seamless garment in the church, and in the Scripture. A person that reaches a “different conclusion” has departed from the Apostolic teaching.

You must put Romans into the proper context with the passage and with the whole.

Look at the first five words of verse 10 “If Christ is in you”, then look at verse 13 “for if you are living according to the flesh”

These are 2 different people, the same two kinds throughout every generation. This is also a good example of the positive and negative I was speaking about.

No, Seeking12. He is writing to the same person. He is describing two ways of life…

Hope this helps your understanding and realize you must read very carefully and prayerfully in order to avoid error. Everyone will make errors, but it should be only a matter of degree; like golf, smaller is better.

This is why Jesus appointed an infallible teacher!

 

[ppasa316]

In other words, you don’t have a rebuttal, so you’re bowing out via redirection. Nice try.

Correct. None of us are saved. Some of us, however, are working on our salvation in fear and trembling. You’re saved once God tells you that you are saved, at the moment of your death. Until the, it’s a matter of faith.

Wow I disagree. We are saved at the moment we receive Christ as our Lord and Savior. To be justified is an instantaneous event in which God declares the believing sinner to be righteous. Rom 3:25,28,30; 8:33,34; Gal 4:21-5:12, 1 Jn 1:7-2:2. We are justified by faith alone not by works. Rom 4; Gal 3:6-14. Good works is a by product of the believers faith in Christ.We do works not to get salvation but because we have already gotten it. In Acts 16:31 did Paul tell the Jailer that he had to be a member of a certain church, be baptized, never commit a mortal sin, pray the rosary, perform meritorious works, and when you die, spend some time in the flames of purgatory and then you’ll be saved. Instead Paul said "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved.
We have Eternal security thru Christ Rom 5:9 “And since we have been made right in God’s sight by the blood of Christ, He will certainly save us from God’s condemnation.” Rom 11:29 “For God’s gifts and His call can never be withdrawn.” There are many more scriptures that reinforce this statement. Throughout the bible we are told that the believing sinner can be saved thru faith. Here you are talking about be justified by works instead of faith. How much works do you need to do to be saved. What if you died and Christ said I am sorry but you just fell short of works to enter into heaven. Man that is a very dangerous statement that you are making. Don’t you know that God will hold you accountable for what you are saying.

 

[tobinatorstark]

Wow I disagree. We are saved at the moment we receive Christ as our Lord and Savior. To be justified is an instantaneous event in which God declares the believing sinner to be righteous. Rom 3:25,28,30; 8:33,34; Gal 4:21-5:12, 1 Jn 1:7-2:2. We are justified by faith alone not by works. Rom 4; Gal 3:6-14. Good works is a by product of the believers faith in Christ.We do works not to get salvation but because we have already gotten it. In Acts 16:31 did Paul tell the Jailer that he had to be a member of a certain church, be baptized, never commit a mortal sin, pray the rosary, perform meritorious works, and when you die, spend some time in the flames of purgatory and then you’ll be saved. Instead Paul said "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved.
We have Eternal security thru Christ Rom 5:9 “And since we have been made right in God’s sight by the blood of Christ, He will certainly save us from God’s condemnation.” Rom 11:29 “For God’s gifts and His call can never be withdrawn.” There are many more scriptures that reinforce this statement. Throughout the bible we are told that the believing sinner can be saved thru faith. Here you are talking about be justified by works instead of faith. How much works do you need to do to be saved. What if you died and Christ said I am sorry but you just fell short of works to enter into heaven. Man that is a very dangerous statement that you are making. Don’t you know that God will hold you accountable for what you are saying.

wrong again. We are James 2:20-26, is all about faith and works

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, **that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? **23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?

26 **For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead. **

see if you can worm your way from that, genious

 

[tobinatorstark]

the same verses from James from your Bible of choice, the NKJV

But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? **For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. **

hm. Faith and works

 

[tobinatorstark]

For completeness to prior posts I wanted to give some references to the MP3 files for the debates between Dr. Martin[sup]†[/sup] and Fr. Pacwa that were seen on the John Ankerberg shows in the 1987 debates.

I want to retract a prior statement I made that Dr. Martin was an anti-Catholic since he did resist a lot of pressure from fundamentalists to declare Catholics a cult as he did so many other pseudo-Christian sects and other religions in his books (in particular: The Kingdom of the Cults ) [sup]†[/sup] Note: Dr. Martin died shortly after these debates in June 26, 1989.

Context:
1987: “The John Ankerberg Show,” a fifteen episode debate between Dr. Walter Martin, Ph.D. and Fr. Mitchell Pacwa, S.J. on Evangelical Christianity and Roman Catholicism, February to April, 1987.

BIO of Fr. Pacwa:
Fr. Mitchell Pacwa, S.J. (Jesuit) received his B.A. in Philosophy and Theology from the University of Detroit, summa cum laude. He received his Master of Divinity and S.T.B. from the Jesuit School of Theology of Loyola University, magna cum laude. He was ordained a Catholic priest in 1976 and then continued his studies, receiving a Ph.D. in Old Testament from Vanderbilt University in 1984.

http://archive.salvationhistory.com/spcImages/2008 Media Package-Father Pacwa PHOTO.jpg

BIO of Dr. Mitchel
See here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Martin#Broadcaster.2C_debater_and_lecturer

The UTUBE files are from John Ankerberg’s TV shows and are all chopped up on the UTUBE site to get them under posting limits. They are also highly edited and reformatted to fit into a multi-week TV program for Ankerberg’s TV program. That reformatting gives Ankerberg 40-50% of each segment’s air-time to artificially put Ankerberg in front of the camera (after the fact) to re-contextualize and re-frame the debates and editorialize them to meet his agenda for HIS TV audience.

The following MP3 files do not have the video but are the uninterrupted audio from the dialog without all the Ankerberg embellishments and cut-to-commercial interruptions and naked edits.

I think Fr. Pacwa comes across extremely viable and competent and I really like the man. I sense that the “debate” on Justification (which I studied with great interest) shows the two men forgetting about the debate and focusing instead on sharing points of view and interest in getting to the the truth and deeper meanings of the scriptures (which is great!). I confess after listening I can respect Dr. Martin since he does understand a fair amount of the Catholic position - but just is arbitrary in choosing the Protestant new tradition over the 2,000 year old Catholic teaching. Martin tries the typical Protestant maneuver to try to construct strawman arguments on what the Trent Council texts mean to corner Catholics into Protestant polemics - but Pacwa does not let him get away with it. Sadly, Ankerberg often tries to interrupt to drive constructive dialog between the two back into a “contest” and pit each man against the other like gladiators forced to entertain him in a fight – which behavior and relish for entertainment puts an ironic twist on some Protestants calling Catholics “Romanish” if you ask me.

[Walter Martin vs. Fr. Mitch Pacwa on Peter and Papacy MP3](http://www.bringyou.to/Mart(name removed by moderator)acwaPapacy.mp3)

[Walter Martin vs. Fr. Mitch Pacwa on Justification by Faith MP3](http://www.bringyou.to/Mart(name removed by moderator)acwaJustification.mp3)

[Walter Martin vs. Fr. Mitch Pacwa on Marian Doctrines MP3](http://www.bringyou.to/Mart(name removed by moderator)acwaMary.mp3)

[Walter Martin vs. Fr. Mitch Pacwa on Confession and Penance MP3](http://www.bringyou.to/Mart(name removed by moderator)acwaPenance.mp3)

[Walter Martin vs. Fr. Mitch Pacwa on Purgatory MP3](http://www.bringyou.to/Mart(name removed by moderator)acwaPurgatory.mp3)

James

Fr. Mitch seems to get his point across loud and clear

 

[tobinatorstark]

Rom 4; Gal 3:6-14. .

neither one has faith alone next to each other.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Wow I disagree. We are saved at the moment we receive Christ as our Lord and Savior. To be justified is an instantaneous event in which God declares the believing sinner to be righteous. Rom 3:25,28,30; 8:33,34; Gal 4:21-5:12, 1 Jn 1:7-2:2. We are justified by faith alone not by works. Rom 4; Gal 3:6-14. Good works is a by product of the believers faith in Christ.We do works not to get salvation but because we have already gotten it. In Acts 16:31 did Paul tell the Jailer that he had to be a member of a certain church, be baptized, never commit a mortal sin, pray the rosary, perform meritorious works, and when you die, spend some time in the flames of purgatory and then you’ll be saved. Instead Paul said "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved.
We have Eternal security thru Christ Rom 5:9 “And since we have been made right in God’s sight by the blood of Christ, He will certainly save us from God’s condemnation.” Rom 11:29 “For God’s gifts and His call can never be withdrawn.” There are many more scriptures that reinforce this statement. Throughout the bible we are told that the believing sinner can be saved thru faith. Here you are talking about be justified by works instead of faith. How much works do you need to do to be saved. What if you died and Christ said I am sorry but you just fell short of works to enter into heaven. Man that is a very dangerous statement that you are making. Don’t you know that God will hold you accountable for what you are saying.

We are received into Christ at the moment we consent to receive Christ as Lord an savior through baptism .Indeed, from that moment on, as long as we continue to abide in Him and not fall away and do ALL He commands and cooperate with sanctifying grace and do not depart from Him and finish in Him then we will be able to continue loving Christ in heaven for eternity. The problem we have is in the Protestant idea of being “saved” for reward sake. Salvation is not a prize to be earned by simply verbal assent or mental assent. Salvation is about an eternal love relationship and the desire to be with God and Jesus and the entire Heavenly Church. So I hope you love Catholics since that is all that is in heaven.

Love means we must suffer like Christ suffered here on earth and bear our trials. Love means letting grace flow through us to transform our will to Christ’s so that we through assent become an instrument of Divine Grace. In essence we becomes Christ-Like and that means we must/will “labor” for God as a reflex of Divine Grace. That is not a work of man - that is a work of grace.

Conforming our will to Grace does it all. Grace keeps us in the body of Christ - which is The Catholic Church. Outside the Body of Christ, that is The Catholic Church there is no grace and no eternal life.

James

 

[ppasa316]

wrong again. We are James 2:20-26, is all about faith and works

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, **that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? **23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?

26 **For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead. **

see if you can worm your way from that, genious

If you studied a little more you would read that Abraham was justified by faith first. The scriptures that you refer to happened 30yrs after he believed in God (His works). Therefore his works were a product of his faith. Anyway in this passage James is basically answering the question "how can someone tell wether or not a person has true faith. And all that follows in chapter 2 answers this question. Notice the word “says” in James 2:14 Here James is saying you can tell a person who truly has faith by his works. Again Works is a by product of their faith. James 2:26 indicates that apart from the spirit the body is dead right? by analogy is it not clear that apart from the evidence of good works faith is dead? So good works are the vital signs indicating that faith is alive. So this verse is talking about the nature of true faith and not the reward of works right? Read Rom 3:20 what does it say.
Rom 4:5 says “but to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly his faith is accounted for righteousness.” Paul here is speaking about Abraham’s salvation which was based on faith Gen 15 This goes along with what i first said. and show some class when you reply. I know that not all Catholics respond the way you do. God Bless Friend

 

[ppasa316]

We are received into Christ at the moment we consent to receive Christ as Lord an savior through baptism .Indeed, from that moment on, as long as we continue to abide in Him and not fall away and do ALL He commands and cooperate with sanctifying grace and do not depart from Him and finish in Him then we will be able to continue loving Christ in heaven for eternity. The problem we have is in the Protestant idea of being “saved” for reward sake. Salvation is not a prize to be earned by simply verbal assent or mental assent. Salvation is about an eternal love relationship and the desire to be with God and Jesus and the entire Heavenly Church. So I hope you love Catholics since that is all that is in heaven.

Love means we must suffer like Christ suffered here on earth and bear our trials. Love means letting grace flow through us to transform our will to Christ’s so that we through assent become an instrument of Divine Grace. In essence we becomes Christ-Like and that means we must/will “labor” for God as a reflex of Divine Grace. That is not a work of man - that is a work of grace.

Conforming our will to Grace does it all. Grace keeps us in the body of Christ - which is The Catholic Church. Outside the Body of Christ, that is The Catholic Church there is no grace and no eternal life.

James

Then it is not longer faith but by works do you receive salvation. Yet the bible says otherwise. Wow then there is nothing i can do to receive salvation as a Christian seeing i am not Catholic. Then that means that what is the Word of God is really a lie. You know God’s Word doesn’t mention a certain church or people that go to heaven other than believers but the arguement is not with me it is with Christ. I think I will stand by His word. Like I said before those are some dangerous statements to be making. God holds you accountable for what you say.

 

[guanophore]

Wow I disagree. We are saved at the moment we receive Christ as our Lord and Savior. To be justified is an instantaneous event in which God declares the believing sinner to be righteous. Rom 3:25,28,30; 8:33,34; Gal 4:21-5:12, 1 Jn 1:7-2:2.

This is what the Catholic Church teaches. There is more, but this is an important beginning.

We are justified by faith alone not by works. Rom 4; Gal 3:6-14.

Actually, it is grace that justifies us. Faith is never alone. Faith is always accompanied by love and hope. Saving faith is faith that works, so it is never separated from the grace that saves us…

Good works is a by product of the believers faith in Christ.We do works not to get salvation but because we have already gotten it.

It is true that being in right relationship with God causes us to bear fruit. however, salvation is something that begins when we are justified, is worked out during this lifetime, and is completed in the next life. it is an error to believe that salvation is completed prior to the judgement.

In Acts 16:31 did Paul tell the Jailer that he had to be a member of a certain church, be baptized, never commit a mortal sin, pray the rosary, perform meritorious works, and when you die, spend some time in the flames of purgatory and then you’ll be saved. Instead Paul said "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved.

The reason he says ‘you shall be’ is that all these other activities are part and parcel of salvation. When people are made members of Christ, they automatically become members of his body, the Church. There is only one Body, one Church. This is not separated from salvation.

If Paul did not tell the jailer he needed to be baptized, why did he? Do you think he just cooked that up on his own?

If you think people that commit mortal sins cannot be saved, then you don’t understand the Catholic teaching on salvation at all!

Praying the Rosary is a devotion that did not emerge for centuries. paul would have taught the jailer the prayers of the early church. Do you believe the Catholic Church teaches one must pray the Rosary to be saved?

Do you think that Christians should not perform the works that God prepared beforehand that we walk in them?

it seems you do not understand the Catholic teaching on sanctification, either. only those who are saved are benefitted by the final purification.

it is becoming increasingly clear that you left the Church founded by Christ because you did not understand the Teachings. This is fortunate, since after having your misunderstandings corrected, you are more likely to return.

We have Eternal security thru Christ Rom 5:9 “And since we have been made right in God’s sight by the blood of Christ, He will certainly save us from God’s condemnation.” Rom 11:29 “For God’s gifts and His call can never be withdrawn.” There are many more scriptures that reinforce this statement. Throughout the bible we are told that the believing sinner can be saved thru faith.

That is because the Bible is a Catholic book.

Here you are talking about be justified by works instead of faith./quote]

No. We are justified by grace, through faith. it is faith that works. The faith that justifies manifests itself in bearing fruit that befits repentance.
ppasa316;4880272:

How much works do you need to do to be saved.

We need to be perfect, as our heavenly father is perfect. We need to follow his commandments. Nothing unclean can enter heaven. Each and every deed we do is to be conformed to his will.

What if you died and Christ said I am sorry but you just fell short of works to enter into heaven.

i would say, "ppasa! When did God die, and you take his place’ ?

you are making up calumnies about the CAtholic Church because you don’t understand the Teachings.

neither one has faith alone next to each other.

That’s because there is onloy one place in scripture where the words ‘faith’ and ‘alone’ appear together:

 

[guanophore]

James 2:23-24
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

If you studied a little more you would read that Abraham was justified by faith first.

If you studied a little more, you would realize that this is what the Catholic Church teaches.

The scriptures that you refer to happened 30yrs after he believed in God (His works). Therefore his works were a product of his faith.

you mean his ‘works"’ were 30 after his faith? I think that would be difficult to justify in scripture. of course works are a product of faith! how could they be otherwise?

James 2:22-26
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

What do you suppose it means:
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,

"faith was completed by works’?

By the way, one of the reasons that Catholics do not espouse ‘faith alone’ is that the Apostles taught that saving is always 'active alone with works".

What does v. 24 mean?
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead. James 2:22-26

Why is it, when the Apostles’ teach that as the body apart from the Spirit is dead…protestants insist on separating the two?

Anyway in this passage James is basically answering the question "how can someone tell wether or not a person has true faith.

i agree. Faith is never alone. It is always ‘active with works’.

And all that follows in chapter 2 answers this question. Notice the word “says” in James 2:14 Here James is saying you can tell a person who truly has faith by his works. Again Works is a by product of their faith.

To the extent that they are never separated, i agree. however, the fact that works 'complete" faith, it seems that ‘faith alone’ is not accruate.

James 2:26 indicates that apart from the spirit the body is dead right? by analogy is it not clear that apart from the evidence of good works faith is dead?

yes, it is clear. Faith is never ‘alone’ any more than the body is alive without the spirit.

So good works are the vital signs indicating that faith is alive. So this verse is talking about the nature of true faith and not the reward of works right?

They are not separated from one another. A person who is obedient does receive rewards.

Read Rom 3:20 what does it say.
Rom 4:5 says “but to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly his faith is accounted for righteousness.” Paul here is speaking about Abraham’s salvation which was based on faith Gen 15

Actually paul is talking here about Abe being in a rigth relation ship with God (justification). This is only the beginning of salvation. Remember, those he justified, he also sanctified. Sanctification is also part of salvation.

This goes along with what i first said. and show some class when you reply. I know that not all Catholics respond the way you do. God Bless Friend

It is clear that you never did understand what the Catholic Church taught, and were easy prey for being sucked into error.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Then it is not longer faith but by works do you receive salvation. Yet the bible says otherwise. Wow then there is nothing i can do to receive salvation as a Christian seeing i am not Catholic. Then that means that what is the Word of God is really a lie. You know God’s Word doesn’t mention a certain church or people that go to heaven other than believers but the arguement is not with me it is with Christ. I think I will stand by His word. Like I said before those are some dangerous statements to be making. God holds you accountable for what you say.

It’s too bad that you can’t see that “consent” to faith is also a work of grace. The problem is that most Protestants in their paranoia to NOT look too Catholic reflexively shrink from anything that looks like “works”. That is a Protestant dogmatic reflex that somone taught you so I can understand why you do it. But what you need to understand is that in scripture when it talks of works in relation to faith and salvation it is talking about works of faith and love (which are really works of grace operating in us) rather than works of law. There is a difference and the first kind of work is just another form of grace.

God floods the planet with “Actual Grace” - that is His universal call to each of us. It is by that beckoning grace that any of us can even respond to Him - which gives rise to faith. So you see Grace kicks EVERYTHING off. But consent is also required (“let it be done to me according to thy Word”) and that is faithfully submitting the human will and heart toward God. Once one is baptised God floods that soul with Sanctifying Grace and is it now initially justified before God and the Holy Spirit starts transforming that soul into a new creation in Christ. Such a Christian can not help but do good works of grace. So the works are works of God not of man and therefor can not be boasted of.

The bigger issue we have with your theology is not the “by faith alone” salvation slogan. That is a slogan most Protestants spew but never really believe at heart anyway. You all just go with the feeling so to speak and trust in Jesus to make it all work. The problem we Catholics have is that you do not obey Christ’s commandments - in particular the need to partake of the Eucharist and to be obedient to Christ’s Vicar and representatives. Protestants mostly do not value The Church - and this is the real deadly mistake. Since The Church IS the Body of Christ. Someday you will come to realize that - the sooner the better.

James

 

[guanophore]

Then it is not longer faith but by works do you receive salvation. Yet the bible says otherwise.

no, ppasa. The Scripture records Catholic teaching, which is that we are saved by grace through faith. there is no such thing as "salvation by works’. You are making that up. it is not found in scripture, and not in the Teaching of the Catholic. Why would you make up wrong ideas, then blame them on Catholics?

Wow then there is nothing i can do to receive salvation as a Christian seeing i am not Catholic. Then that means that what is the Word of God is really a lie.

you can follow the Apostolic Teaching,ppasa.

no, the Word of God is not a lie. what you have been taught to believe about what it says is certainly erroneous.

You know God’s Word doesn’t mention a certain church or people that go to heaven other than believers but the arguement is not with me it is with Christ.

All those that go to heaven are members of his one body, the church.

I think I will stand by His word. Like I said before those are some dangerous statements to be making. God holds you accountable for what you say.

I agree. And he will also hold you accountable for making up tall tales, then blaming them on Catholics. I suspect you do this in ignorance, since your posts clearly indicate that you don’t understand the teachings of the Church. HOwever, it is wrong to spread lies, even if they did not originate with you.

 

[WMM]

Then it is not longer faith but by works do you receive salvation. Yet the bible says otherwise. Wow then there is nothing i can do to receive salvation as a Christian seeing i am not Catholic. Then that means that what is the Word of God is really a lie. You know God’s Word doesn’t mention a certain church or people that go to heaven other than believers but the arguement is not with me it is with Christ. I think I will stand by His word. Like I said before those are some dangerous statements to be making. God holds you accountable for what you say.

***You are very adept at twisting words, as nothing James has said would indicate “it is not longer faith but by works do you receive salvation”.

James is simply trying to point out that “Once Saved, Always Saved” has no biblical basis and the concept was a product of the Reformation.***

 

[guanophore]

If you are going to continue to just sling mud, then we have no place for dialogue.

i agree. it causes one to wonder why you started making disparaging remarks about Catholics weeks ago!

Please give at least a specific example where someone can be blotted out of the Book of Life, which is the topic right now.

Jesus is giving one right there in the passage!

Rev 3:5
5 He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life;

What do you suppose happens to the one who does not conquer, and is not clad thus in white?

If it is all there as you say, then provide your evidence…since it is all there it should take you but a few minutes…right?

do you really think 2000 years of evidence can be distilled into a few minutes?

in the post above this one, some evidence was provided by Athanasius. You seemed to immediately exclude this evidence, even though you do not even seem to know the source.

Show where it is possible to be removed;

Such a statement seems to imply that Jesus is not ‘able’ to do what he decided not to do.

Rev 3:5
5 He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life;

Bible says these names were written from before the foundation of the world. It is also clear that the names are of the elect; if you are part of the elect can you lose that salvation?

Eternal life exists outside the spae time continuum. Jesus can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants. he can put the name in the book of life, and he can blot it out.

Revelation 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, {everyone} whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

Are you trying to imply that Jesus is unable to blot out the name?

 

[Philthy]

If you studied a little more you would read that Abraham was justified by faith first. The scriptures that you refer to happened 30yrs after he believed in God (His works). Therefore his works were a product of his faith.

 

[sodak]

Wow I disagree. We are saved at the moment we receive Christ as our Lord and Savior. To be justified is an instantaneous event in which God declares the believing sinner to be righteous.

Really? Where is that in the Bible - I’ve always tried to find that “Lord and Savior” quote, but I’ve always come up short. And, as has been previously explained, there are plenty of verses warning us to stay on the straight and narrow path lest we risk damnation.

Rom 3:25,28,30; 8:33,34; Gal 4:21-5:12, 1 Jn 1:7-2:2. We are justified by faith alone not by works. Rom 4; Gal 3:6-14. Good works is a by product of the believers faith in Christ.We do works not to get salvation but because we have already gotten it.

And James talks quite plainly about being justified through works, as Abraham and others have been justified. James actually says that we are not justified by faith alone. So your statement is in direct contradiction with the Bible. Faith and works are not in contradiction with each other, they are a pair, as others have said. But for some reason, you seem to insist on making this an either-or thing.

In Acts 16:31 did Paul tell the Jailer that he had to be a member of a certain church, be baptized, never commit a mortal sin, pray the rosary, perform meritorious works, and when you die, spend some time in the flames of purgatory and then you’ll be saved. Instead Paul said "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved.

Hmmm… Sounds like a strawman being built up.

Here you are talking about be justified by works instead of faith. How much works do you need to do to be saved. What if you died and Christ said I am sorry but you just fell short of works to enter into heaven. Man that is a very dangerous statement that you are making. Don’t you know that God will hold you accountable for what you are saying.

You really don’t understand Catholicism, do you? You’ve completely twisted what I’m saying. We all will be held accountable for what we say, even you.

 

[Philthy]

]You assume that Abraham was justified on only one occasion - you are mistaken, as Scripture clearly indicates. He was justified by** works** when he believed God in Gen 15, and he was justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar.

Ugg - I made a little error (bolded) above.
I meant to say that he "was justified by faith when he believed God in Gen 15 and he was justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar (Gen 22).

 

[tobinatorstark]

If you studied a little more you would read that Abraham was justified by faith first. The scriptures that you refer to happened 30yrs after he believed in God (His works). Therefore his works were a product of his faith. Anyway in this passage James is basically answering the question "how can someone tell wether or not a person has true faith. And all that follows in chapter 2 answers this question. Notice the word “says” in James 2:14 Here James is saying you can tell a person who truly has faith by his works. Again Works is a by product of their faith. James 2:26 indicates that apart from the spirit the body is dead right? by analogy is it not clear that apart from the evidence of good works faith is dead? So good works are the vital signs indicating that faith is alive. So this verse is talking about the nature of true faith and not the reward of works right? Read Rom 3:20 what does it say.
Rom 4:5 says “but to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly his faith is accounted for righteousness.” Paul here is speaking about Abraham’s salvation which was based on faith Gen 15 This goes along with what i first said. and show some class when you reply. I know that not all Catholics respond the way you do. God Bless Friend

That still doesn’t prove FAITH ALONE. Show me some where “faith” and “alone” are next to each other in the Bible and I will believe you. But you can’t cause it doesn’t exist. Faith cannot exist without works. Works cannot exist without faith

 

[tobinatorstark]

Then it is not longer faith but by works do you receive salvation. Yet the bible says otherwise. Wow then there is nothing i can do to receive salvation as a Christian seeing i am not Catholic. Then that means that what is the Word of God is really a lie. You know God’s Word doesn’t mention a certain church or people that go to heaven other than believers but the arguement is not with me it is with Christ. I think I will stand by His word. Like I said before those are some dangerous statements to be making. God holds you accountable for what you say.

Faith and works. Not by faith alone, not by works alone. Faith and works.