SPLIT: Questions Catholics Will Not Answer.

[justasking4]

guanophore;3243444]Why would He? You say He would not even apply His power to spare his own mother from original sin!

Problem there is no evidence this was ever done.

Why would He be more likely to apply saving grace to infants who die than He would for those whose parents asked in faith for him to do so?

Good question. I don’t know

Oh? Why is that? Are you saying that God’s power is not present in baptism? It is more present without it?

I don’t see baptism as limiting it

 

[CentralFLJames]

Don’t infants get baptized very quickly after birth? If so, then they fail to beleive which is essential to salvation.

Since baptism applies to both sexes how did this work for circumcision? Girls weren’t circumcised were they?

I am not an expert here but Jewish women I believe had another ritual law of purification and had to go to the temple to perform it. Mary is said to have taken part in this ritual even though she was not subject to it.

James

 

[Pier]

**There are many churches that do this on a daily basis. There are others that do it every time they have a service, although they don’t have a service every day. Christ didn’t say do it every day, but as often as you do it, do it in remembrance of me. That’s how most handle it.

I don’t get your point.**

It’s not my point, it’s His.

 

[CentralFLJames]

How could Jesus, still present in His own body, say that bread and wine were His body and blood?

How could Jesus perform miracles and feed thousands with only a few loafs and a few fish? How could Jesus raise people from the dead? How could Jesus appear to be in multiple places to 500 separate witnesses all at the same time?

More importantly how can you believe in the miracle of Baptism and all the prefiguring of the Eucharist present since the very first recorded proper sacrifice of Abel (and God’s rejection of imperfect sacrifice), and the passover and the pascal lamb and not possibly believe that everything God did was leading up to the crucifixion and God making himself permanently available (e.g. God is with us) through the Eucharist?

How can you read the same bible (mostly) we do and then miss the most central part of its message?!

You know know in your heart that you are missing something huge here. Listen attentively to the Holy Spirit screaming “Wake Up!”

Pray! Pray! Pray!

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Jesus was speaking of spiritual truths and not physical ones.

No! You have read all the scriptures yet you just “don’t get it”.

How can you accept the truth that humans are both spirit and truth (and intellect) yet not accept that Jesus was SPEAKING OF BOTH spiritual and physical presence in the Eucharist!??

Better yet, why would you go out of your way to avoid that natural revelation that is here? If the Catholic Church had not taught this would you have accepted it had you thought of it yourself or do you reject it only because The (Roman) Catholic Church teaches this? In other words, if this was not a Romanish centric teaching would you have glomed onto this truth on your own eventually from scripture? Be honest - since I think you are masking truth only because you dislike Italian cooking so to speak.

Do you think Jesus incapable of being present both physically and spiritually? Eternal Life requires a holistic healing of our humanity. We need a soul that has communed and dined with and from the divine just and we need a perfected flesh that is made as divine through the promises of Jesus.

James

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;3242714]
Originally Posted by justasking4
i do think infants do go to heaven. That would make sense to me in my understanding of the mercy and love of God.

guanophore
And what about the justice of God? What about when He banished Adam and Eve from the garden so that they would not live eternally in error?

What about original sin? If nothing unclean can enter heaven, how is it that infants can go there who have been born under sin?

Good questions and there are no easy answers to them.

How can you reject the Immaculate Conception of Mary, insisting we are all born sinful, then believe that sinful babies can enter the Holy of Holies?

2 different issues. We know the scriptures don’t teach the Immaculate Conception of Mary for a number of reasons while what happens to infants when they die is more problematic.

It is amazing to me that God is big enough for you to let babies born under sin into heaven, but you cannot believe that he could preserve His own mother from it’s effects.

Be amazed no longer.:dancing: As i’ve said above about the Immaculate Conception of Mary there is no evidence for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
This is why i don’t think the comparison with baptism is that strong because of the differences.

guanophore
Well, lets for the sake of discussion, we limit it to males. What differenecs are there between circumcision and baptism that make it a poor comparison?

To be baptized means that you are first a Christian i.e. one who has believed in and confessed Christ and has eternal spiritual value. Circumcision on the other hand was the sign of ethnic identity. It was the physical participation in the temporal features of the Abrahamic covenant. It didn’t have any spiritual implications at all. It was as you may know limited only to males and not females.

 

[justasking4]

CentralFLJames;3243577]
I clicked on the link at the bottom your post and would like to ask you about it

Eternal Father,
I offer Thee the Most Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son, Jesus,
in union with the Masses said throughout the world today,
for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory,
for sinners everywhere,
for sinners in the Universal Church,
those in my own home and within my family.

Amen.

Our Lord told St. Gertrude the Great,** that the following prayer would release 1,000 souls from Purgatory each time it is said. **The prayer was extended to include living sinners which would alleviate the indebtedness accrued to them during their lives.

Since there are a limited number of catholics for the past 2000 years would it be safe to say the purgatory should be empty by now or nearly so?

 

[guanophore]

How i wish it were as simple as you make it sound here. If you read church history for example you will find a number of different opinions and a vast number of things that Jesus taught and in many cases don’t agree.

It is pretty simple. Jesus taught nothing that does not agree with His other teachings, and God’s revelation that came before Him. There are no contradictions.

 

[Old_Scholar]

How could Jesus perform miracles and feed thousands with only a few loafs and a few fish? How could Jesus raise people from the dead? How could Jesus appear to be in multiple places to 500 separate witnesses all at the same time?

More importantly how can you believe in the miracle of Baptism and all the prefiguring of the Eucharist present since the very first recorded proper sacrifice of Abel (and God’s rejection of imperfect sacrifice), and the passover and the pascal lamb and not possibly believe that everything God did was leading up to the crucifixion and God making himself permanently available (e.g. God is with us) through the Eucharist?

How can you read the same bible (mostly) we do and then miss the most central part of its message?!

You know know in your heart that you are missing something huge here. Listen attentively to the Holy Spirit screaming “Wake Up!”

Pray! Pray! Pray!

James

I believe I understand the message quite clear. However I am always trying to learn and to assure I have the truth.

Shouldn’t you be trying to do the same? If you would only researchy what I am writing, then you would see how wrong you are on so many things.

Go back to the original Catholic Church and study the beliefs and then look at them now and remember what Christ said about changing things. You must be able to do that but I don’t think you want to know the truth.

 

[guanophore]

It does not necessarily require that Jesus be actually physically present in the bread and wine for Paul’s exhortation to understood. We both know that that our relationship to Christ is not based on something phyiscal. Jesus also taught that where 2 or 3 are gathered in His name He is there. We also know that in some mysterious way He is in us as Colossians 1:27 teaches. Since Christ dwells in believers does that make them God? Of course not.

The other problem with the catholic view is that it leads to unbilcal ideas and concepts.

Fortunately we are not limited to the Scriptures, and we have Sacred Tradition to help us understand what they mean.

1- If Christ is actually in the host that would mean the host God. If this were true then we should expect to see characteristics of God in it like intelligence, power, the ability to communicate etc.

Jesus chooses to hide Himself in the elements. I can’t say I understand it either. Scripture says the Rock in the desert with Israel was Christ too. he comes under the appearance of other things.

2 - If Jesus is in host then this means Jesus now has another nature of bread and wine.

This is forcing your limited human understanding onto a mystery that is beyond intellect.Humans will never be able to make “sense” of divine mystery.

These are just some of the problems associated with this and i don’t know if we should go into them here.

I think not. This is already on the Transubstantiation thread.

 

[justasking4]

It is pretty simple. Jesus taught nothing that does not agree with His other teachings, and God’s revelation that came before Him. There are no contradictions.

The contradictions come from the interpretations of men. Thats the problem

 

[Mannyfit75]

I believe I understand the message quite clear. However I am always trying to learn and to assure I have the truth.

Shouldn’t you be trying to do the same? If you would only researchy what I am writing, then you would see how wrong you are on so many things.

Go back to the original Catholic Church and study the beliefs and then look at them now and remember what Christ said about changing things. You must be able to do that but I don’t think you want to know the truth.

It hasn’t change. The only thing that change is the disciplines such as rites. But the essential beliefs which are part of the deposit of faith have always been there. Though they are more indefined and developed.

The best analogy is an infant. The infant at birth looks different than his adult self. In time, the infant will grow. It is the same with the Church. In the beginning of the Church, they didn’t have the concept of the Trinity until it was defined by Council of Nicea in 325 AD. The Church always believe that Mary was sinless, that Jesus is truly present in Bread and Wine, that the worship was always centered on the Eucharist, the Papal Primacy always had its first place among the Apostles.

 

[Mannyfit75]

The contradictions come from the interpretations of men. Thats the problem

True, that problem is the interpretation of Protestants which itself is man-made. The Catholic Church hasn’'t contradict itself. It has been preserved by the Holy Spirit from teaching erroneous doctrines concerning faith and morals.

That is whay you have 33,000 Protestant denominations and they aren’t all in agreement concerning all essential doctrines.

 

[Mousey]

CentralFLJames;3243577]

Since there are a limited number of catholics for the past 2000 years would it be safe to say the purgatory should be empty by now or nearly so?

What make you think that only Catholics go to purgatory?

Go back to the original Catholic Church and study the beliefs and then look at them now and remember what Christ said about changing things. You must be able to do that but I don’t think you want to know the truth.

Would you care to list the beliefs.

 

[Old_Scholar]

It hasn’t change. The only thing that change is the disciplines such as rites. But the essential beliefs which are part of the deposit of faith have always been there. Though they are more indefined and developed.

The best analogy is an infant. The infant at birth looks different than his adult self. In time, the infant will grow. It is the same with the Church. In the beginning of the Church, they didn’t have the concept of the Trinity until it was defined by Council of Nicea in 325 AD. The Church always believe that Mary was sinless, that Jesus is truly present in Bread and Wine, that the worship was always centered on the Eucharist, the Papal Primacy always had its first place among the Apostles.

I would believe you provided you could show proof of what you claim in Scripture or even in the first two centuries of the early church fathers writings. But you can’t. Those beliefs originated much later.

And as far as the Trinity, it was always in Scripture, it’s just that the word Trinity itself was not there. But the concept and idea is plainly taught in Scripture. It just took some people hundreds of years to find it.

 

[jmcrae]

Jesus was speaking of spiritual truths and not physical ones.

The opposite of “physical” is not “spiritual” - it’s just non-physical.

Spiritual things are physical signs that contain within themselves actual but unseen realities.

 

[justasking4]

Mannyfit75;3243767]True, that problem is the interpretation of Protestants which itself is man-made. The Catholic Church hasn’'t contradict itself. It has been preserved by the Holy Spirit from teaching erroneous doctrines concerning faith and morals.

I don’t know how you can see this considering the catholic church has infallibly interpreted less than 20 verses and i have shown how not all catholic scholars agree. If memory serves me correctly some catholic scholars don’t interpret Revelations 12 the same way as you do. Who do i believe? The church has never interpreted this passage as far as i know and catholic scholars differ as do individual catholics. So who is right?

That is whay you have 33,000 Protestant denominations and they aren’t all in agreement concerning all essential doctrines.

What protestant church do you know of that does not believe Christ was God in the flesh and died for the sins of mankind?

 

[justasking4]

Mousey;3243769]What make you think that only Catholics go to purgatory?

Since i’m not a catholic i don’t know. What does the catholic say?

 

[Mannyfit75]

I don’t know how you can see this considering the catholic church has infallibly interpreted less than 20 verses and i have shown how not all catholic scholars agree.

Are Catholic scholars the ordinary Magisterium? I don’t think so. The Magisterium is the Bishop in union with the Pope. Scholars can discuss issues and may disagree but they are have no authority to proclaim things dogmatic. That is the only problem you don’t seem to grasp.

If memory serves me correctly some catholic scholars don’t interpret Revelations 12 the same way as you do. Who do i believe? The church has never interpreted this passage as far as i know and catholic scholars differ as do individual catholics. So who is right?

The Church affirms that woman in Revelation 12:1-5 is the Church, Israel, Eve, and Mary. None of which is wrong. Scholars can disagree but like I said they have no authority. Only the Church does.

The one who is right is the Church. Unless you can prove to me that the male child in Revelation 12:1-5 is not Jesus then you can say that the woman is not Mary. However, you have not proven you case period and therefore you failed in your thesis.

What protestant church do you know of that does not believe Christ was God in the flesh and died for the sins of mankind?

None. Generally speaking all Christians believe that in the fullness of time, God took on our nature and became man and died for our sins.

 

[CentralFLJames]

These are for people who have a hard time understanding Scripture. Sort of a “connect the dots” thing

.

Fellow Christian - BRAVO BROHER! You understant the entire cover to cover bible message!!

It is such a profoundly simple yet astonishing and joyous message!

1. Humanity fell from grace by partaking of the forbidden fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and through recognition of sin and guilt separates himself from God’s face (in both humanity’s male and female image of God/Adam & Eve).
2. Man starts to live fewer years and starts to progressively die sooner as moral corruption starts to gnaw at humanity’s fallen nature and we rapidly decline morally as sin corrupts creation.
   2a) Man tries to please God and offers up sacrifices (Cain & Abel) but only Cain’s is acceptable. Abel kills him out of jealousy and so sin further declines the human moral condition as murder is committed.
   2b) God starts revealing a saving plan for a fallen humanity and finds a just and faithful man Abraham who will form the new stock for the human race. Melchizedek blesses Abraham to prefigure the heavenly High Priest (Jesus) and then develops an entire nation of God’s people.
   3c) We have progressive revelation and human struggles but God always provides for those who remain faithful (the promised land, deliverance from one’s enemies, a priestly line to atone for sins, the punishment of God’s enemies etc. etc.)
3. God evolves his people’s faith and message and then arrives physically on the planet with the new bread of life which comes down from heaven and born out of obedience to God (Abraham, Mary) to heal His people. A new covenant sealed with divine blood (Jesus) rather than animal blood is made with humans and we become partners in God for our own salvation.
   4a) A new Adam and a new Eve who are incorruptible become our new spiritual parents that enable humanity to be reborn incorruptible into a new Kingdom that is immune from sin and corruption that will eventually replace the earth and the current order. God invites us to be His children.
4. We are given the Bread of Life, fruit of the tree of life so that we may be healed from the painful effects occasioned by the fruits ingested in Eden by eating a new fruit from the Tree of Life (Eucharist). So just as man fell by partaking of a thing that would bring him sorrow and death man may be saved by a thing that brings him joy and eternal life.
5. We are to take this seed into ourselves and let it bear much fruit throughout the world so that all of humanity may partake of this same fruit and have eternal life
6. All we have to do now is remain faithful as the first fruits take hold and God does the rest to get us back home to him.

That’s a very condensed version of it all. But pretty much everything else is pretty much centered on prefiguring Christ and the Eucharist and ratifying prophesy in an irrefutable way since it would be humanly impossible to contrive this and keep a multigenerational fabrication going when these same people (different Jewish tribes) were often non cooperative with each other.

We have the truth and everything we need for eternal life - all we have to do now is continue to believe, trust in Jesus, get baptised, confess our sins each time we fall away, receive our daily bread (Eucharist), worship God with our whole heart mind and soul (again through Eucharist and living a Christian life) and loving our neighbors - even our stubborn protestant brothers. We should also try to do God’s works - by praying for conversions, teaching, inspiring and serving one another. We should also try to not just get “saved” for ourselves but make ourselves holy and more perfect to attain higher achievement and recognition in heaven so that we may glorify God all the more. And we must also share in Christ’s suffering on the Cross when called to so that we may also share in Christs glory.

God Bles brother,
James