SPLIT: Sola Scriptura debate

[BornAgainRN]

Sorry, I won’t play on your terms. We’re adults, we can disagree but if you’re going to tell me “you can’t use your basis for faith to argue, because I already reject it” then I’m going to treat you the same way:

Don’t use your personal interpretation of scripture to challenge me, because you can be (in this case, are) wrong.

It is only ‘personal interpretation’ if I use the words ‘I think,’ ‘I believe,’ ‘this is my opinion,’ ‘this is the view of church,’ etc. I have not done this. All I have done is support the BIBLICAL view the Jesus had half-brothers & half-sisters by providing SCRIPTURE & what the words mean in the original Biblcally-Inspired languages. I WANT you to think, which means not basing YOUR faith on the ‘personal interpretations’ of others (including church leaders), but on what God has revealed to your through His Holy Inspired Word. If you want to base your faith on YOUR PERSONAL interpretation, fine. But, don’t say that I am ‘personally interpreting’ Scripture, because I am NOT doing that. I am understanding it from a ‘plain sense’ from Scripture - not on what other people ‘think’ it means.

 

[BornAgainRN]

Show me where I said “I think” since you are accusing me of this. If you read what I wrote, you’ll see that all I did is provide Scripture references, understanding them from the original Biblically-Inspired languages. Since I ‘don’t benefit from the Holy Spirit keeping me free from error,’ & since the Bible is the Inspired (God breathed) Word of God, then show me specifically FROM SCRIPTURE (not church opinion, or your PERSONAL interpretation of Scripture) where I erred? Also, show me in the Bible where the Church is called ‘Holy Mother.’ If everything the Church Fathers wrote are completely true, then why aren’t their writing part of the Bible, including those who wrote letters BEFORE Revelation was written? Everything I have written is supported by God’s Word, which CAN’T be wrong, which both Catholics & Protestants agree on. Can you honestly say the same about EVERYTHING your Church has EVER taught? We still need to compare what our Church leaders claim to God’s Holy Word to know if what they are teaching, or have taught, is true or not (Acts 17:11).

 

[Boulder257]

I don’t know everything. But, what I do know, & what we can agree on, is that the Bible is the Word of God, which we can be assured that everything it says is true, which is why I believe from the Biblical languages that Jesus had half-brothers & sisters. What I am looking for is to see if the claims of Catholics are true when they say that they believe the Bible is the Word of the Lord. As a former Catholic, I was taught that. I wanted to see if that was true or not.

You are correct. However, you are arguing against the very authority that compiled these books and determined them to be inspired. What did they use for the first 400 years of Christianity?

 

[Big_Feet]

But, what I do know, & what we can agree on, is that the Bible is the Word of God, which we can be assured that everything it says is true.

Who determined that the “Bible is the Word of God”? I am just curious of YOUR beliefs on this?

I believe, as history tells me, that the Church Fathers determined this fact, and they and their descendants through Faith hold tight to the Traditions that the Apostles passed down to them…and now to us. Scripture, in the end, is no more than a part of this Holy and Apostolic Tradition that you are now railing against.

 

[Boulder257]

Thanks for the welcome. Yes, I am a new member, & I am new at this. Not intentionally meaning to try to purposely break forum rules. I have been on Christian forums in the past that don’t restrict linking to Christian sites, & don’t restrict posts on Sola Scriptura or using church beliefs. I guess I am still learning & kind of surprised that using Scripture to support my view would be considered ‘proselytizing.’ Thank you for the sub-forum link. But, do the same ‘restrictions’ using Scripture apply there as well.

I guess my question based on Scripture - God’s Holy Word - is: am I wrong for believing that Mary & Joseph had children? As Christians, isn’t truth the thing we should be seeking above all else, in better understanding our relationship with Jesus Christ? Thanks for the feedback. God bless you in Jesus’ Name, Steve.

I don’t believe it is against the rules to discuss scripture and it’s interpretation; however, I would just be sure it was placed in the correct forum. I think you will find most people here would love to dialogue with you regarding the Catholic faith, but I would remember that many are just as “on fire” for the Catholic faith as you are for yours. While it may not be the charitable thing to do, you may get some angry reactions, especially if your posts lack a charitable tone. I am certainly not saying they do, just saying you are in Catholic Forum, so many here are, well, Catholic . I think the rules are designed to stop someone from coming to the forums with a closed mind and the sole intention of “converting” Catholics. I don’t think anyone is discouraging honest discussion or genuine questions.

I hope that helps!

 

[BornAgainRN]

You are correct. However, you are arguing against the very authority that compiled these books and determined them to be inspired. What did they use for the first 400 years of Christianity?

The books of the Bible were not ‘given’ to us by the Council of Nicea. The Old Testament was written by the Jews, & quoted hundreds of times in New Testament & read countless times in synagogues & churches during the first several centuries. These books were universally recognized as authoritative long before they were placed under one cover. The individual New Testament books also were not written by the Catholic church. In fact, all the books of the New Testament were written by Jews (except for Luke, who was colleague of Paul, who was a Jew). These books were also read in churches during the first few centuries of the Christian church & were nearly all recognized as authoritative. The Council of Nicea did not ‘vote’ on which books should be placed under one cover. Through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, God revealed to the Council of Nicea, which books were not authoritative & to be left out. But this does not mean that the Council ‘gave’ us the Bible. They merely recognized what God had been revealing to the Church for centuries. However, we now have the complete Bible, which we can look to for ‘correction & rebuke’ (2 Timothy 3:16-17), based on the original Biblically-Inspired languages which supports that Mary & Joseph had children after the birth of Jesus (Matthew 1:25; 12:46-50; 13:54-57).

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Is this the sola scriptura forum?

Oh sorry - I must have entered the wrong URL …

 

[ByzCathCantor]

These books were universally recognized as authoritative long before they were placed under one cover.

So were others that didn’t make the “final cut”

 

[snarflemike]

It is only ‘personal interpretation’ if I use the words ‘I think,’ ‘I believe,’ ‘this is my opinion,’ ‘this is the view of church,’ etc. I have not done this. All I have done is support the BIBLICAL view the Jesus had half-brothers & half-sisters by providing SCRIPTURE & what the words mean in the original Biblcally-Inspired languages. I WANT you to think, which means not basing YOUR faith on the ‘personal interpretations’ of others (including church leaders), but on what God has revealed to your through His Holy Inspired Word. If you want to base your faith on YOUR PERSONAL interpretation, fine. But, don’t say that I am ‘personally interpreting’ Scripture, because I am NOT doing that. I am understanding it from a ‘plain sense’ from Scripture - not on what other people ‘think’ it means.

How do you know that scripture is inspired? It obviously can’t be from scripture since that would be circular reasoning.

 

[Boulder257]

The books of the Bible were not ‘given’ to us by the Council of Nicea. The Old Testament was written by the Jews, & quoted hundreds of times in New Testament & read countless times in synagogues & churches during the first several centuries. These books were universally recognized as authoritative long before they were placed under one cover. The individual New Testament books also were not written by the Catholic church. In fact, all the books of the New Testament were written by Jews (except for Luke, who was colleague of Paul, who was a Jew). These books were also read in churches during the first few centuries of the Christian church & were nearly all recognized as authoritative. The Council of Nicea did not ‘vote’ on which books should be placed under one cover. Through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, God revealed to the Council of Nicea, which books were not authoritative & to be left out. But this does not mean that the Council ‘gave’ us the Bible. They merely recognized what God had been revealing to the Church for centuries. However, we now have the complete Bible, which we can look to for ‘correction & rebuke’ (2 Timothy 3:16-17), based on the original Biblically-Inspired languages which supports that Mary & Joseph had children after the birth of Jesus (Matthew 1:25; 12:46-50; 13:54-57).

You put words in my mouth that aren’t there. Where did I say the Church “gave” us the bible? You seem to be replying with overused and already refuted arguments.

I appreciate your fervor and passion. I admire your commitment to what you believe to be true. However, I pray that your motivation is and/or becomes one of Charity and Love.

Peace be with you my friend.

 

[Nicea325]

The books of the Bible were not ‘given’ to us by the Council of Nicea. The Old Testament was written by the Jews, & quoted hundreds of times in New Testament & read countless times in synagogues & churches during the first several centuries. These books were universally recognized as authoritative long before they were placed under one cover. The individual New Testament books also were not written by the Catholic church. In fact, all the books of the New Testament were written by Jews (except for Luke, who was colleague of Paul, who was a Jew). These books were also read in churches during the first few centuries of the Christian church & were nearly all recognized as authoritative. The Council of Nicea did not ‘vote’ on which books should be placed under one cover. Through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, God revealed to the Council of Nicea, which books were not authoritative & to be left out. But this does not mean that the Council ‘gave’ us the Bible. They merely recognized what God had been revealing to the Church for centuries. However, we now have the complete Bible, which we can look to for ‘correction & rebuke’ (2 Timothy 3:16-17), based on the original Biblically-Inspired languages which supports that Mary & Joseph had children after the birth of Jesus (Matthew 1:25; 12:46-50; 13:54-57).

Exactly! The books were included into the canon over a span of 300 years.

 

[Church_Militant]

The books of the Bible were not ‘given’ to us by the Council of Nicea. The Old Testament was written by the Jews, & quoted hundreds of times in New Testament & read countless times in synagogues & churches during the first several centuries. These books were universally recognized as authoritative long before they were placed under one cover.

And yet the translation of the OT used by the early church, which was in fact indeed Catholic, was the Greek Septuagint and not the Hebrew. In fact the Septuagint was the translation of the OT in use even in Jesus’ time, because Greek was the lingua franca even then. Ultimately Latin supplanted it as the Roman Empire grew, hence the Latin Vulgate translation by St. Jerome. The Septuagint is actually the OT translation most quoted in the New Testament. See The Deuterocanonical Books of the Catholic Bible

The individual New Testament books also were not written by the Catholic church.

Really? Then why do they so clearly teach Catholic Doctrine?

• The Eucharist IS Scriptural
• Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory
• How Is A Catholic Saved?
• “I Find No Sacraments In the Bible” he said.
• Baptism~ Necessary or Not?
• The Case For Infant Baptism
• Catholic Confession
• Scriptures About Penance
• Infallibility & How The Apostles Taught the Study of Sacred Tradition.
• The Rapture?
• The Intercession & Communion of Saints

In fact, all the books of the New Testament were written by Jews (except for Luke, who was colleague of Paul, who was a Jew).

They may have been converts from Judaism, but they were indeed Catholic in their writings and theology. We ceased being Jews very early on since it was hard to worship with people stoning and beating you like they did. The canon of the Bible that we have today was actually canonized by the Church as late as 398AD. Do your historical homework.

• [The Old Testament Canon (https://www.google.com/url?q=http:/...ds-cse&usg=AFQjCNHbYq_ZBEMcXkl7-I6fqxoDY-zekg) | Catholic Answers
• [Canon (Canon of Scripture: What criteria did the early Christians use to determine it? | Catholic Answers) of Scripture: What criteria did the early Christians use to …
• [Why did some books mentioned in the Bible (https://www.google.com/url?q=http:/...ds-cse&usg=AFQjCNE-KzDqBYehb1zX9rxX9lD8tOsw7A) perish and not make it …

(Cont’d)

 

[Church_Militant]

These books were also read in churches during the first few centuries of the Christian church & were nearly all recognized as authoritative.

Totally inaccurate according to the history of the canon as the articles above help to show. If whoever’s been teaching you all this stuff is wrong on this, perhaps you should check to see where else their facts are so far off. I did and you can read it in My Testimony

The Council of Nicea did not ‘vote’ on which books should be placed under one cover. Through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, God revealed to the Council of Nicea, which books were not authoritative & to be left out. But this does not mean that the Council ‘gave’ us the Bible. They merely recognized what God had been revealing to the Church for centuries.

Again, your history is wrong.
First council to define the bible canon? - Catholic Answers Forums

However, we now have the complete Bible, which we can look to for ‘correction & rebuke’ (2 Timothy 3:16-17), based on the original Biblically-Inspired languages which supports that Mary & Joseph had children after the birth of Jesus (Matthew 1:25; 12:46-50; 13:54-57).

This is totally wrong as I show in the following blog article. The Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

 

[po18guy]

To the OP: Are you violating the bible by privately interpreting scripture? Nothing else is worth discussing if scripture itself is not followed.

 

[BornAgainRN]

Who determined that the “Bible is the Word of God”? I am just curious of YOUR beliefs on this?

I believe, as history tells me, that the Church Fathers determined this fact, and they and their descendants through Faith hold tight to the Traditions that the Apostles passed down to them…and now to us. Scripture, in the end, is no more than a part of this Holy and Apostolic Tradition that you are now railing against.

Primarily, God determined which books of the Bible were to be Inspired, since Inspiration originates from Him. However, as the authors of the Bible wrote, God ‘breathed’ (Inspired) His revelation to us through the pages of Holy Scripture (2 Timothy 3:16). So, the books of the Bible were Inspired the moment they were written down. By the time the Council of Trent came along, the Holy Spirit guided them to recognize which books to include, but all He did is make them realize what He had already determined from eternity past to be true. The purpose for God giving us the Bible, is since the apostles are long since dead, it is the authoritative source we are to use to compare ‘TO’ Church doctrine, beliefs, & traditions. If the Bible supports them, then they are authoritative. If the Bible does not support them, then God’s Inspired Word instructs us not to ‘add or take away from Scripture.’ And, Scripture supports the belief that Mary & Joseph had children after the birth of Jesus, based on the original Biblically-Inspired languages.

I know you may not believe this. However, I encourage you to reread my original post, & compare them ‘TO’ the Scriptures provided, then write out a ‘family tree,’ & I think you’ll find that the Bible supports this belief. Try it.

 

[JustaServant]

No, it’s not parameters that ‘I’ set. It’s parameters that GOD set in His Holy Inspired Word (Acts 17:11; 2 Timothy 3:16). All I’m asking, is that since Catholics believe the Bible is the Word of the Lord, based on the Word of the Lord, does the Bible, based on the originally Biblically-Inspired languages support the belief that Mary & Joseph have children after Mary gave birth to Jesus? Sola Scriptura primary means that if a belief contradicts Scripture, or adds or takes away from it to the point that it changes the beliefs of Church based on Scripture, then it should be rejected. Would you agree with that at least? I just want to know what you believe based on what God reveals to YOU, through His Inspired Word, rather than what you ‘personally’ believe or what you believe based on what someone else tells you it means. Will you at least consider reading the Bible passages I provided, & compare my conclusions ‘TO’ them, based on the original Biblcally-Inspired Greek language?

The fact is the Catholic Church guided by the Holy Spirit decided which books were the inspired, inerrant Word of God and compiled them into the Bible as we have it today. Although your protestant Bible doesn’t have all of those inspired, inerrant books. You rely on that authority of the Catholic Church whether you realize it or not.
That same authority guided by the same Holy Spirit has determined such dogmas as the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption, Purgatory, Sacred Tradition just to name a few, yet you reject them.
Why do you accept the authority of the Church pertaining to the Canon of Scripture but not its authority on all of its dogmas if it is the same Holy Spirit that guided it in determining the Canon of Scripture?
Was the Holy Spirit right in one instance and wrong in another?
Which of the denominations in your phone book will give you the right answer?

 

[BornAgainRN]

The fact is the Catholic Church guided by the Holy Spirit decided which books were the inspired, inerrant Word of God and compiled them into the Bible as we have it today. Although your protestant Bible doesn’t have all of those inspired, inerrant books. You rely on that authority of the Catholic Church whether you realize it or not.
That same authority guided by the same Holy Spirit has determined such dogmas as the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption, Purgatory, Sacred Tradition just to name a few, yet you reject them.
Why do you accept the authority of the Church pertaining to the Canon of Scripture but not its authority on all of its dogmas if it is the same Holy Spirit that guided it in determining the Canon of Scripture?
Was the Holy Spirit right in one instance and wrong in another?
Which of the denominations in your phone book will give you the right answer?

The Immaculate Conception contradicts Scripture (Matthew 1:25). The Assumption is not in Scripture (the Woman in Revelation 12:1 is NOT Mary, but Israel that the male Child was born out of - Genesis 37:5-10, because ‘she’ is later being chased by Satan in the wilderness). Purgatory is NOT Biblical (1 Corinthians 3:15, but be understood by going back to v.10-15, which tell us our ‘works’ get burned up, but the BELIEVER doesn’t. The ‘fire’ a person goes through ‘burns’ up the works that aren’t holy, not the believer.

The Church has remained but God warns us of false teachers even WITHIN the Church. That is why God gave us the Bible, because people can get corrupt & teach false doctrine. The safest thing to do is compare beliefs - ALL beliefs - to Scripture, even those of the Church.

I don’t belong to a ‘denomination’ like Catholicism. I am ‘nondenomination’ & my authority is Jesus Christ & His Written Word (2 Timothy 3:16;1 John 5:13).

 

[BornAgainRN]

Absolutely they are! When you restrict the discussion to use only of the fragmentary written record, you attempt to control the discussion. This is not a search for truth, but rather, validation. No, thanks!

Man lives on every word that flows from the mouth of God (Deuteronomy 8:3, Matthew 4:4). Yet, the bible tells us that it does not contain every word of God (Luke 3:18, John 20:30, John 21:25, Acts 2:40, 1 Corinthians 11:34 etc.etc.etc.). Now, what? Have we begun making things up and thinking as man does, and not as God does?

No! It does only if you violate the bible by privately interpreting it. 2 Peter 1:20.

This is the elephant in the living room of your opinion. You must get past the elephant before a discussion will result.

Not everything Jesus said was written in Scripture, but He didn’t say that what wasn’t written down was to be taught in the Church, because what He did say wasn’t verbally passed on. We have no records that ‘Jesus said this, but it wasn’t written down, so this is Inspired too.’ Even the writings of the early Church fathers need to be compared to Scriptures. If we don’t, then we are blindly following people who are fallible, rather than Gods’ Word which is infallible. I am not the one ‘making things up.’ I am basing the Christian faith on SCRIPTURE…SCRIPTURE…God’s WORD! Not my own ‘personal’ or religious beliefs. That is the point I am trying to get across. It is NOT of myself or my own understanding, but rather GOD’S understanding revealed through the pages of Holy Scripture, which the Catholic church does NOT do. THEY are the ones that base ‘their’ interpretation of ‘their’ own understanding, & don’t encourage ‘their’ sheep to compare what they are teaching to Scripture. If people like Martin Luther didn’t do this, we would still be believing that you had to be Catholic (specifically) to get to Heaven, & we’d still be giving indulgences to get out of purgatory, which doesn’t even exist (1 Corinthians 15 does NOT teach purgatory, BTW). Please read my original post with the Bible passages provided, make a ‘family tree’ of Jesus, & you’ll see that Scripture supports that Mary & Joseph had children after the birth of Jesus. Try it!

 

[po18guy]

I am not the one ‘making things up.’ I am basing the Christian faith on SCRIPTURE…SCRIPTURE…God’s WORD! Not my own ‘personal’ or religious beliefs.

SCRIPTURE says that the “ignorant and unstable” distort the scriptures.

Let’s unpack what you, in essence, are alleging here: You are telling us that Luther was wrong. You are telling us that Calvin was wrong. You are telling us that Zwingli was wrong. You are telling us that Saint Thomas Aquinas was wrong. You are telling us that Jerome was wrong. You are telling us that (at a minimum), over 1,500 years of the greatest Christian minds on earth were all wrong. Are you and your bible really that smart?

 

[Stephen_C]

That is why God gave us the Bible, because people can get corrupt & teach false doctrine.

Well yes but It did not just float down from the Heavens. The Catholic Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, put the Bible together. Spread over 3 councils starting in the 300’s. It is a Catholic book. Put together by Catholic’s for Catholic’s. That is History. You just cannot change that. Sorry. I am going to trust the Church (Catholic) that put the Bible together (guided by the Holy Spirit). We all know what self interpretation has gotten us. Just check out the phone book under Churches. So which one has it right? And how do you know…Each claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit.