SPLIT: Speaking in Tongues (Revisited)

[grannymh]

Can someone please post the scripture verses which refer to the people praying/speaking in tongues in the new testiment as an unknown language or a language unknown to humans? (Acts 2:1-8) says that the people who received the Holy Spirit were speaking/understanding languages that were known to men.

Regarding Acts 2: 1-8. Most people do not realize that two very distinct manifestations of the Holy Spirit happened on Pentecost.

Verse 1, “When the time for Pentecost was fulfilled, they were all in one place together.” This sets the location for the coming of the Holy Spirit. They were still in the Upper Room when in verse 4, “And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in tongues, as the Spirit enabled them to proclaim.” This was Praying in tongues because they were proclaiming the glory of God. Remember that everyone in the Upper Room could speak the same language so there was no need for them to speak in a “foreign” language. Their prayer tongues came from the Holy Spirit as He enabled them.

Verse 5 shifts to the crowd outside of the Upper Room. What happened there, when the apostles came out of the Upper Room to preach, was really a “miracle of hearing.” This was an unique miracle. Praying in tongues, which started with the coming of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, continued to be presented in the New Testament.

When one reads Acts Chapter 10, one finds the English phrase “speaking in tongues.” However, from reading the beginning of this chapter, the context is one of Prayer tongues. Prayer tongues is the gift which aids the indivdual to direct his prayer to God. In verse 46, the person was glorifying God.

My suggestion is to read 1 Corinthians 14: 1-19 very slowly. One must remember that Paul is writing to an audience who has already been Praying in tongues. Paul assumed that they knew exactly what he was talking about. For example verse 5 uses the English phrase “to speak in tongues” when it is clear from the context that Paul is referring to Praying in tongues.

In order to really understand 1 Corinthians chapter 14, one needs to go back to
1 Corinthians 12: 4-11 where Paul presents the classical list of nine Gifts of the Holy Spirit which are also referred to as ministries. Yes, it is very confusing which is why an authentic Catholic Charismatic group spends time in teaching about the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. One way to keep things straight is to remember that Jesus Christ as Our Lord is the center of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

It is understandable that the first thing a person wants to do is to find the Gifts of the Holy Spirit in Scripture. My recommendation is to both understand the Catholic approach to the gifts and read Scripture.

Blessings,
granny

John 3: 16-17

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[Matorin]

I can share an experience I had. It was when I was younger at a youth group during a Sunday evening. We were walking through the lobby when I heard someone speaking loudly, almost yelling, in what was certainly not English. There was also another guy who was speaking in English. The guy who was speaking in gibberish (at least what it sounded like to me) never stopped for a pause like he was thinking, and later I found out (all us kids were staring for 2 or 3 minutes until the youth pastor got us because it was really weird for us since the church I was going to was not charismatic at all) that he was speaking in Hebrew, and he was quoting a long passage from Isaiah, one of the prophecies on Christ. The guy speaking in English had been studying Hebrew for seminary, but the first guy had no experience with Hebrew at all. This was in a group of about 10-15 Korean men who were having a Bible study in the sanctuary during a Sunday night. Looking back it was pretty memorable and seems to me to be pretty real, because

1. There was an interpreter
2. He wasn’t just speaking random nonsense (assuming the interpreter was interpreting correctly)
3. All of the kids were afraid to go in because we didn’t feel it was right. This could be attributed to fear of unknown or strangeness perhaps, but also could have been because we felt that place was holy and we subconsciously had the fear of God in us.

I would caution you OP, not to attribute the works of the Holy Spirit to either lies or other spirits. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is pretty dang serious, so just be careful

 

[St_Gabriel]

Thankyou for posting the scripture passages.

Here goes another question:

If we have received the Holy Spirit at baptism and the gift of tongues was sealed in us through the Holy Spirit at confirmation, then why the need for someone to lay their hands on us and shake them up? Some call this “stirring up”. How/why do the gifts to lay dormant for years and years? I have been to several confirmations (including my own) and I have never seen anyone break out speaking/praying in tongues. Although I did read one person on this forum who said it happened to them.

I am very wary of having people praying over me.

 

[garysibio]

I doubt the existence of speaking in tongues and I think that it is just a self fulfilling propehcy for those who claim they can do this. However, I believe that it is possible I am wrong. I know some people that claim they can speak in tongues and they take it really seriously and claim it is a gift of the Holy Spirit, which it very well may be. They get mad at me since though it is not my intent, I offend them with my denial of its existence as it implies I don’t believe them or think it’s nuts. But how am I supposed to explain that I can doubt something while still believing in the possibility I am wrong without being somewhat offensive to their beliefs? I mean, ya I think it’s crazy and all but I very well may be wrong.

May I make a suggestion? Do a little research. Unfortunately I no longer have my notes but, back in the mid 70s, when I was in college, I did a paper on the catholic Charismatic movement with which I had recently gotten involved. Obviously glossolalia was a big part of the paper. The paper included over 100 references which gave accounts of cases where the language being spoken was identified by someone with a natural knowledge of the language.

A couple of cases stuck in my mind. The first was a priest I was acquainted with who was approached by a lady who identified the languages he was speaking as Polish and Russian. A year later he began to study these languages as part of his ministry and his prayer language changed.

Another case was a young man whose language was identified as a form of German used during Medieval times. What made this case exceptional was that the man was otherwise unable to speak at all in any language.

Gary

 

[grannymh]

Thankyou for posting the scripture passages.

Here goes another question:

If we have received the Holy Spirit at baptism and the gift of tongues was sealed in us through the Holy Spirit at confirmation, then why the need for someone to lay their hands on us and shake them up? Some call this “stirring up”.

I do like your questions. They challenge me to double check my memory and check my sources.

The phrase “stirring up” comes from “Exhortations to Timothy”

2 Timothy 1: 6-8 – “For this reason, I remind you to stir into flame the gift of God that you have through the imposition of my hands. For God did not give us a spirit of cowardice but rather of power and love and self-control. So do not be ashamed of your testimony to our Lord, nor of me, a prisoner for His sake; but bear your share of hardship for the gospel with the strength that comes from God.”

My Bible’s footnote comments that the “gift of God” refers to the grace resulting from the conferral of an ecclesiastical office. Charismatics like the idea of being on fire for Our Lord. It goes back to Acts 2: 3 --“Then there appeared to them tongues as of fire, which parted and came to rest on each one of them.”

When the Holy Spirit brought about the Catholic Charismatic Renewal in 1967, high ranking clergy and theologians scrambled to find out what was happening.

Two things were obvious: 1. Paul’s teachings, and 2. the writings from the early Church showed that a form of what we call baptism of the Spirit was part of the celebration or ritual surrounding the Sacraments of Christian Initiation, Baptism, Confirmation, and the Eucharist which were given at the same time because many converts were adults. This additional invoking of the Holy Spirit was not part of the essential rite of these Sacraments but rather was additional seeking of God’s mighty graces.

Today, we are born anew by Baptism, strengthened by the Sacrament of Confirmation, and receive in the Eucharist the food of eternal life. These are still the Sacraments of Initiation, especially at the Easter Vigil. However, the special practice of asking the Holy Spirit for the gifts He originally provided for the Apostolic Church no longer accompanies Sacramental ceremonies. Does this imply that these gifts which date to Pentecost are lost forever? Absolutely not. Obviously, they are in Catholic renewal for our times.

How/why do the gifts to lay dormant for years and years?

This is a modern description. I doubt if anyone really knows what Baptism and Confirmation gifts are being ignored. So I can’t answer your question about any particular ones being dormant. Baptism and Confirmation give us many gifts and graces; but, both Baptism and Confirmation are a two-way deal. We have to get off our arse and use or develop our gifts.

I have been to several confirmations (including my own) and I have never seen anyone break out speaking/praying in tongues. Although I did read one person on this forum who said it happened to them.

Today, instruction regarding the gift of praying in tongues usually is not given in conjunction with Confirmation. However, in some areas, knowledge of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are part of the preparation for Confirmation. Or children know about the gifts from their parents. The Holy Spirit often ignores human guidelines when He finds a soul receptive to His gifts.

As for the gift of Speaking in Tongues which is totally different from the common Gift of Praying in Tongues, normally a person is mature in their spirituality, has been active in Catholic Charismatic Renewal for some time, and has studied this gift in order to discern if the Holy Spirit wills that he or she should receive this particular gift. Prayer, participation in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as often as possible, and frequent reception of the Sacrament of Reconciliation are all part of the preparation for the gift of Speaking in Tongues.

From reading posts on CAF, one may get the impression that the sole purpose of the baptism of the Spirit is to get the gift of praying in tongues. Not so. The gift of praying in tongues is a byproduct which may or may not occur.

Being baptized in the Holy Spirit means that the person has freely chosen to submit his whole life to Jesus Christ as his true Savior. Subsequently, when one receives Jesus Christ truly present in the Catholic Eucharist, the gifts of the Holy Spirit help the person to continue a deep relationship with Jesus following Holy Communion.
In the early Church, and also today, praying in tongues is one way a person can express his or her deep devotion to Jesus.

I am very wary of having people praying over me.

No problem. The Holy Spirit is not limited to human conventions.

Blessings,
granny

Ask and you shall receive.

 

[Hiskid1973]

Yes Granny…Ask and you shall receive…Yes it always seems to focus on tongues and strange languages.They don’t seem to notice praying in the Spirit…No one asks much about words of wisdom/ knowledge yet they are vital during ministry time…All thats needed is a willing vessels that want to go deeper in their faith walk in Christ.
many priest’s/pastors don’t even teach it or have ministry to involve the gifts…I just have this feeling we need to press in deeper for the days ahead…Grace and peace to you beloved in the Lord…

 

[grannymh]

Yes Granny…Ask and you shall receive…Yes it always seems to focus on tongues and strange languages.They don’t seem to notice praying in the Spirit…No one asks much about words of wisdom/ knowledge yet they are vital during ministry time…All thats needed is a willing vessels that want to go deeper in their faith walk in Christ.
many priest’s/pastors don’t even teach it or have ministry to involve the gifts…I just have this feeling we need to press in deeper for the days ahead…Grace and peace to you beloved in the Lord…

Since you mentioned ministry, I will share this example.

Years ago, I was a volunteer on behalf of the Pastoral Care Department at our hospital. This meant I wore a hospital badge and ministered to patients regardless of faith. One time I was in the room of a Christian, not a Catholic. Someone was there from her church who could pray in tongues. I respectfully asked her if I could pray with her. Together, we prayed in tongues, obviously in low voices since this was a hospital room. Our intention was for the person who was very sick. I kept thinking that where two or more are gathered, there Christ is.

As I have said before, the gift of prayer tongues is under the control of the person. This enabled me to change the cadence of my prayer language to blend with hers.
While I could not understand her language, it seemed that I could tell when she was praying to God to have mercy on the sick person or petitioning God to give His sick lamb courage to face death–the same that I was doing in my prayer language. Basically, I was letting her lead. There were a couple of times when I was silent in respect of her prayer.

Praying in tongues was comforting the patient. This was a time of prayer and not a discussion of different faiths. I do not know what happened to the patient or her friend. I do know that all of us in that room were praying to God

Usually, when I visited a patient, there would be some casual conversation and I would get an idea of who this person is. If I were asked to pray, I would be able to pray in keeping with the person’s needs and own religion. This time, I did not chat with the sick person–all I knew was that a person from her church prayed in tongues.
I trusted that my prayer language would be in keeping with God’s will. This is the point of praying in tongues – we yield to God’s will in our prayer.

What is truly marvelous about the gift of praying in tongues is that when I don’t know what to pray for regarding a patient, I yield to the Holy Spirit Who prays in my place.
I never again had the chance to pray softly in tongues in a patient’s room. However, I would often pray silently in my soul while listening to a patient. I was asking for wisdom in choosing the right words to pray in English with the patient.

Blessings,
granny

Ask and you shall receive.

 

[Hiskid1973]

Wow Sis, good story and example…Thank you…In spite of our differences it’'s all about Jesus…Sealed by the same Spirit…May the Lord use you mighty in His
name in the days ahead…K

 

[St_Gabriel]

I do like your questions. ****…

And I like your answers too. It is apparent that I have a lot to learn about the gifts of tongues although I am still not certain that this is something that God wants me to have. None of my immediate family members have ever been involved in the charismatic movement (we tend to stick with devotionals such as the rosary etc…). Although I know that St. Paul said we should be trying to seek the higher gifts such as prophecy and without love the gifts have no meaning. Perhaps this is why there are abuses.

It is so confusing for me. I have had protestants from all different backgrounds tell me that they can all speak in tongues and then appear stunned when I tell them that I have never spoken or prayed in tongues. One fellow told me that he rebukes the evil spirits using tongues and then I’ve also encountered another person who said he thought that he was possessed and I noticed that whenever he got angry, he would start to talk in some gibberish language that I could not understand. I figured it was some kind of tongue. And in another case, when my son was just learning to speak, I had one person ask me what language he was speaking when all the time he was just speaking baby talk. This came from someone who would be familiar with hearing others speaking in tongues, since it occurs at their prayer services.

Then I think with all these people experiencing these gifts of the Holy Spirit, shouldn’t they be leading exemplary lives or be on fire with the faith, but I personally have not seen any difference between any of the ones whom I have met. In many cases they don’t even go to church.

 

[grannymh]

Then I think with all these people experiencing these gifts of the Holy Spirit, shouldn’t they be leading exemplary lives or be on fire with the faith, but I personally have not seen any difference between any of the ones whom I have met. In many cases they don’t even go to church.

I am home briefly and will comment on the beginning of your post later.

When our parish held its first “Life in the Spirit” course, there was a sizable turn out.
There was another Life in the Spirit course the following year in another city which I attended along with some parishioners who missed the first one. Many of those who were the first to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit have moved out of town, or can no longer be active, or have died. Right now, we do not have an active prayer group.

During the years following the Life in the Spirit courses, I do know that the seeds of serving Christ bore fruit. Many participants started coming to daily Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Many became involved in Perpetual Eucharistic Adoration. Some became lectors and Extraordinary Ministers of Communion, including bringing the Eucharist to the homebound and hospital. Some worked on Parish Committees. Some helped in city-wide cooperative programs to help the poor or PADS when it began.

Graces and gifts from the Holy Spirit require a person to accept them and use them.
Some people do not accept or use what the Holy Spirit generously gives. But when people do respond, their lives can be stirred into flame.

Blessings,
granny

Christ calls all who are weary to come to Him.

 

[grannymh]

None of my immediate family members have ever been involved in the charismatic movement (we tend to stick with devotionals such as the rosary etc…). Although I know that St. Paul said we should be trying to seek the higher gifts such as prophecy and without love the gifts have no meaning. Perhaps this is why there are abuses.

The rosary is wonderful. Especially with the mysteries added by Pope John Paul II. Praying in tongues will never take its place. Praying in tongues as an introduction to the rosary can help prepare us for the graces which come with saying the rosary.

Praying in tongues within our heart can be as short as 30 seconds. It’s like ringing the doorbell at God’s house. . The 30 seconds of Praying in tongues is to thank God for the rosary and, most important, it is to put us in the proper frame of mind. Actually, the 30 seconds is to help clear our mind of grocery lists and overdue bills.

You already know the key to all gifts love. One difference between Praying in tongues and gifts such as prophecy is how love is directed. Praying in tongue directs our love to God. Gifts such as prophesy directs God’s love to the community. The traditional description is that the gifts of prophesy and others are to build up the Church while the gift of Praying in tongues is to build us.

I agree with you that without a proper sense of love, gifts can be abused or not even used.

Blessings,
granny

 

[missmorgan389]

As I have said before, the gift of prayer tongues is under the control of the person. This enabled me to change the cadence of my prayer language to blend with hers.

I was in a huge setting with a lot of people, and I started speaking in tongues. I had no control over this, but I’m not sure it was a language that someone could understand either. But I do know it was between me and God. So what’s the difference, really?

For those that have trouble understanding, it might be that we aren’t meant to understand the answer in this life. In that case, I think I’m writing it down as a question to ask God when I meet Him

 

[ProVobis]

I am sorry, but I don’t understand the purpose of someone praying or speaking in another language that they themselves cannot understand.

Yes, but didn’t you learn your prayers by memorizing syllables and cadences you didn’t understand at first? Honestly, didn’t you say Our Father many times before you understood every thought? It was still prayer, wasn’t it? I learned the Latin Creed in grade school but when I got into high school the understand came automatically because I heard it at every Mass and at some point it happened to sink in.

If you’re stuck in a French or Spanish Mass, do know that your prayers are heard by God, even if you just follow along.

 

[ProVobis]

… Even at the time of Christ, the variety of tongues spoken by citizens of the Roman Empire caused problems for those attempting to spread the new faith. The Acts of the Apostles tell us that, at the time of the first Pentecost, the Apostles preached to crowds of Parthians, Medes and Elamites, and to pilgrims from Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphilia, Egypt, Libya, Rome, Crete and Arabia.

Despite the fact that the Apostles would have preached in Aramaic, their words were understood by everyone because the Holy Ghost gave them the gift of tongues. But, after the death of the Apostles, when the gift of tongues had all but disappeared, it was still necessary to ensure that the doctrines and liturgy of the new religion could be clearly transmitted to everyone, no matter what language they spoke.

latinmassireland.org/thelatinmass/why_latin.html

 

[Isaiah_41]

The reason I give any credance to the charismatic movement is because an Auxilary Bishop in my area belongs to it and he usto be our Parish Priest and he is not only Pius but Intellectual. However, I can’t help but to reflect upon Matthew 6: 5-8. “In praying , do not babble like Pagans, who think they will be heard because of their many words”." When praying do not be like the hypocrites (Pharisees) who love to stand and pray in synagogues and on street corners so that everyone mat see them". Maybe it’s just about style, but I still prefer meditative prayer.

 

[grannymh]

It is so confusing for me. I have had protestants from all different backgrounds tell me that they can all speak in tongues and then appear stunned when I tell them that I have never spoken or prayed in tongues.

May I explain this in terms of Catholic history and usage of the term Pentecostal.

In the early Church, Pentecostal was applied to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in prayer experiences, charismatic gifts, ministries, and patterns of Church community because all this began on Pentecost as described in the Acts of the Apostles and continued through the teachings of St. Paul and others. However, as the Catholic Church developed through the early centuries, the full activity of the Holy Spirit appeared to be limited. Charismatic activities continued to be present in lives of the Saints.

The renewal of Pentecostal activity associated with the New Testament began among non-Catholic groups in the early 1900’s. Unfortunately, instead of renewing existing Christianity, this early beginning led to the formation of Pentecostal Churches and to what has been called a “third force” in Christianity.

At this point my history is shaky. As I recall, people in mainline Protestant Faiths as well as Catholics were concerned about the obvious decline of religious practice.
Some kind of renewal was needed across the board. I am not sure of the dates of current Protestant renewal, but the Catholic Charismatic Renewal began in 1967.
Definitely, a new Pentecost was beginning.

In 1969, a statement on the Catholic Renewal was issued by the Theological Committee of the American Bishops. It stated the following:
a) The movement has a sound Scriptural foundation.
b) The effect on the participants is good, often leading them back to abandoned religious practices.
c) Prudent priests should be involved in the movement so as to assure sound
guidance in the use of the charismatic gifts.

Source: A Key to Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church ISBN: 0-87029-033-9
by Msgr. Vincent M. Walsh, Key of David Publications, 12th printing, June, 1992.

Considering that the original, Protestant Pentecostal Renewal dates to the early 1900’s --depending on location and religious upbringing, there would be all kinds of Protestants familiar with the gifts of the Holy Spirit described in* Acts*, etc. Since Catholics trace the beginning of our Church to the first Pentecost, it is understandable that some Protestants would be surprised at our late entry. Add Catholic caution to this plus misunderstandings about the gifts and it becomes easy to understand some Protestant reactions.

Blessings,
granny

Praise God always.

 

[grannymh]

The reason I give any credance to the charismatic movement is because an Auxilary Bishop in my area belongs to it and he usto be our Parish Priest and he is not only Pius but Intellectual. However, I can’t help but to reflect upon Matthew 6: 5-8. “In praying , do not babble like Pagans, who think they will be heard because of their many words”." When praying do not be like the hypocrites (Pharisees) who love to stand and pray in synagogues and on street corners so that everyone mat see them". Maybe it’s just about style, but I still prefer meditative prayer.

Marvelous meditative prayer and praying in tongues are not mutually exclusive styles.

As for* Matthew 6:5-8,* this is the introduction to the Lord’s Prayer. Here Jesus was referring to real Pagans and living Pharisees and not to post-Pentecost Catholics.

Blessings,
granny

Praise God in many forms of prayer.

 

[St_Gabriel]

Another thing that puzzles me about praying in tongues is this:

When the disciples asked Jesus how to pray, he gave them the words of the Our Father. These were actual words not incomprehensible speech.

 

[St_Gabriel]

Yes, but didn’t you learn your prayers by memorizing syllables and cadences you didn’t understand at first? Honestly, didn’t you say Our Father many times before you understood every thought? It was still prayer, wasn’t it? I learned the Latin Creed in grade school but when I got into high school the understand came automatically because I heard it at every Mass and at some point it happened to sink in.

If you’re stuck in a French or Spanish Mass, do know that your prayers are heard by God, even if you just follow along.

Agreed, but the impression that I get here is that the person who prays in tongues never understands what they are saying, unless an interpreter is present. It is meant only for God to understand and it builds up the person, much like the Eucharist does. We can only experience it’s affects by deeping prayer. Is this correct?

The question is, does it bear fruit outside of the person who uses it? The Eucharist does both.

 

[grannymh]

Agreed, but the impression that I get here is that the person who prays in tongues never understands what they are saying, unless an interpreter is present. It is meant only for God to understand and it builds up the person, much like the Eucharist does. We can only experience it’s affects by deeping prayer. Is this correct?

The question is, does it bear fruit outside of the person who uses it? The Eucharist does both.

The person who prays in tongues is allowing the Holy Spirit to form the words by using the lips, tongue, i.e., the speech mechanism. Just as praying the Our Father, benefits the pray-er, praying in tongues also benefits the pray-er.

The very unique gift of speaking in tongues requires two experienced charismatics. The first person yields to the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit forms the words very similar to praying in tongues.

The fruit of speaking in tongues is for the community. This is why a second person yields to the Holy Spirit who gives the person the wisdom to discern the message of God given through the first speaker.

It is not all that important that one praying in tongues understands the words which the Holy Spirit forms because the person is praying in humility to God.

On the other hand, when God speaks to the community, it is important that the message be discerned in the vernacular.

The confusion is understandable because in both gifts of Praying and Speaking God’s word, the same lips, tongue, i.e., speech mechanisms are being used by the Holy Spirit.

It is difficult to compare the gifts of the Holy Spirit to the Eucharist because the Eucharist is God Himself. The gifts are means or ways of communication between the human and the Divine.

Blessings,
granny

Praise the Lord!