SPLIT: Speaking in Tongues (Revisited)

[nickybr38]

Praying directly to God with the gift of prayer tongues does not need a human interpreter. Practically speaking, the person who wishes to pray to God has a general idea what he or she wants to say to God. I have learned to add that God’s will be done. Furthermore, I would like my prayer to be pleasing to God. I do get tongue-tied at times. (Pun is not intended.) When I yield to the Holy Spirit, in effect I am saying please form my words in the best way possible. The Holy Spirit does this with my personal prayer language or prayer tongues.

Speaking God’s message in tongues is from the list of nine gifts taught by Paul. This is the gift which needs interpretation. Practically speaking, the two people with these gifts are already known to the prayer group or prayer community so their integrity is verified. They work as a pair. Even so, the leadership of the group still tests the message to make sure it conforms to Catholic teaching.

Please grab your Bible and follow this line of reasoning. Mine has the heading “The Coming of the Spirit” for *Acts, Chapter 2. *The Verses 1-12 seem to flow seamlessly, but that is not what actually is happening. There is a definite shift in location and purpose. There are two different episodes to consider.

Verse 1, “When the time for Pentecost was fulfilled, they were all in one place together.” This sets the location for the coming of the Holy Spirit.

Remember that everyone in the Upper Room could speak the same language so there was no need for them to speak in a “foreign” language. Verse 3. Everyone was in direct contact with the Holy Spirit via “tongues as of fire.” so there was no need for one person to teach the rest. The question is – what was the purpose of speaking in different tongues? They were still in the Upper Room when in verse 4, “And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in tongues, as the Spirit enabled them to proclaim.” These people were proclaiming the arrival of the Holy Spirit and were lifting their voices in joy and praise. They were not rejoicing from the same song sheet. Each had a different tongue (Verse 4) according to the individual.
These prayer and praise tongues came from the Holy Spirit as He enabled them.

Verse 5 shifts to the crowd outside of the Upper Room. This is a totally different scene from the Upper Room. Being empowered by the Holy Spirit, the Apostles joined the crowd to share the good news in the vernacular. Verse 6 begins the description of the miracle which the visiting Jews experienced. Visitors were hearing the joyful preaching in their native language.
Verse 11 explains the miracle which is that the visitors did not need an interpreter but heard about the mighty acts of God directly. This is unique when compared with the setting used in Paul’s instructions to the Church of Corinth.

I am continuing to study a couple of links which include some errors. The historical errors regarding “Catholic” Pentecostalism occur because of confusion between the New Testament as accepted by the Catholic Church and Methodism founded by John Wesley. While I cannot speak for Protestants themselves, I am finding that there are Catholics who confuse the New Testament Pentecostal experiences with Protestant religions including Pentecostal Churches. Apparently, some people fail to make the distinction between the basic teachings of the New Testament and the additional teachings from a given Protestant tradition.

Blessings,
granny

John 3:16-17

Well, this is the information I found in regards to speaking in tongues:
*St. Paul spoke highly of the gift of tongues when he said: “I thank my God I speak with all your tongues” (1 Corinthians 14:18).

But he also admonished those who spoke in tongues in CHURCH (or during the liturgy of the Mass) without an interpreter:

“And therefore, he that speaketh by a tongue, let him pray that he (or someone) may interpret” (verse 13).

“But if there be no interpreter, let him hold his peace in the church, and speak to himself and to God” (Verse 28).

This was said because when you speak in a tongue you speak to God in a language that is not only not understood by others, but in a language even you don’t understand:

“So likewise you, except you utter by the tongue plain speech (an understood language), how shall it be known what is said? For you shall be speaking into the air” (without others being able to understand you) - see verse 9 of chapter 14.*
catholicmessagesusa.com/CHARISMATIC-GIFTS.html

And I happen to agree with that assesment.

 

[grannymh]

Well, this is the information I found in regards to speaking in tongues:
*St. Paul spoke highly of the gift of tongues when he said: “I thank my God I speak with all your tongues” (1 Corinthians 14:18). *

But he also admonished those who spoke in tongues in CHURCH (or during the liturgy of the Mass) without an interpreter:

*“And therefore, he that speaketh by a tongue, let him pray that he (or someone) may interpret” (verse 13). *

*“But if there be no interpreter, let him hold his peace in the church, and speak to himself and to God” (Verse 28). *

This was said because when you speak in a tongue you speak to God in a language that is not only not understood by others, but in a language even you don’t understand:

“So likewise you, except you utter by the tongue plain speech (an understood language), how shall it be known what is said? For you shall be speaking into the air” (without others being able to understand you) - see verse 9 of chapter 14.
catholicmessagesusa.com/CHARISMATIC-GIFTS.html

And I happen to agree with that assesment.

There was a lot of good stuff in the link.

The difficulty with quote mining is that the context of Paul’s letter writing is often lost. One needs to remember that the people of Corinth were well informed about the spiritual gifts of the promised Holy Spirit. The letter to the Corinthian people was not “gifts 101” or a basic introduction.

In my humble opinion, the confusion over the gifts of the Holy Spirit is that many readers often ignore the context of Paul’s letters. Also ignored is the relationship of Pentecost (described in *Acts) *to the Last Supper Discourses. These readers appear to be clueless about the reality of the early Church or they simply dismiss the early Church as non-relevant.

Paul had lived with the people of Corinth and knew them. (Beginning of 1 Corinthians, chapter 1.) The people of Corinth were mature in their spirituality. (1 Corinthians 1: 4-7) Paul also knew well where their pride laid. His letter uses the principle of contrast between two gifts in order to bring them back into the proper understanding of two important gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Without a proper understanding of New Testament context, it is no wonder that many readers cannot tell the differences between between the two gifts which are emphasized in *1 Corinthians Chapter 14. *

Blessings,
granny

John 14: 25-26

 

[nickybr38]

Granny, I’m not arguing the gifts anymore, I accept that you believe in them and see no point in trying to dissuade you. The point I was trying to make (and the reason I only quoted some of that link - I didn’t necessarily agree with everything on that site) is that even if the Gift of Tongues means babbling in some unknown language, Paul does make the point that it is NOT appropriate for a Mass setting UNLESS there is an interpretor. Sorry, I should have clarified when I posted.

 

[grannymh]

Granny, I’m not arguing the gifts anymore, I accept that you believe in them and see no point in trying to dissuade you. The point I was trying to make (and the reason I only quoted some of that link - I didn’t necessarily agree with everything on that site) is that even if the Gift of Tongues means babbling in some unknown language, Paul does make the point that it is NOT appropriate for a Mass setting UNLESS there is an interpretor. Sorry, I should have clarified when I posted.

Thank you.

My intention was not to argue about the gifts, but only to explain the differences between the gifts. I apologize that I did not meet my goal of explanation properly. Thank God, the Church is a hospital for sinners.

Blessings,
granny

John 3:16-17

 

[nickybr38]

Thank you.

My intention was not to argue about the gifts, but only to explain the differences between the gifts. I apologize that I did not meet my goal of explanation properly. Thank God, the Church is a hospital for sinners.

Blessings,
granny

John 3:16-17

I’m the one who needs the Church more then most. Being as stubborn and prideful as I am.

 

[jaq1966]

I know that I am ignorant when it comes to this subject, I hope that no one takes offense to any of my above posts. It really puzzles me and I cannot seem to get a straight answer from anyone.

St. Gabriel,
did you ever get a straight answer? I have been asking these questions for a few weeks now, and I also get no answers only more questions. My daughter recently married into a family of “tongue speakers” she and her husband both told me this was “exactly like roman Catholicism” thier wedding ceremony in no way had ,recognizable catholic wedding rituals, just a priest bad mouthing Russian orthodox (my husbands faith) Catholics my faith , and just a bit of Irish bashing thrown in for good measure, I was kind of glad the “tongue speakers” were so distracting because I was able to drone out the bigotry being spewed by this man (newly installed house rule , NO ONE CALLS HIM FATHER IN MY HOUSE) who also never at any point made event he slightest reference to god!

 

[grannymh]

St. Gabriel,
did you ever get a straight answer? I have been asking these questions for a few weeks now, and I also get no answers only more questions. My daughter recently married into a family of “tongue speakers” she and her husband both told me this was “exactly like roman Catholicism” thier wedding ceremony in no way had ,recognizable catholic wedding rituals, just a priest bad mouthing Russian orthodox (my husbands faith) Catholics my faith , and just a bit of Irish bashing thrown in for good measure, I was kind of glad the “tongue speakers” were so distracting because I was able to drone out the bigotry being spewed by this man (newly installed house rule , NO ONE CALLS HIM FATHER IN MY HOUSE) who also never at any point made event he slightest reference to god!

I often try to answer questions regarding the huge difference between 21st century Pentecostals and the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. I would like a second opportunity to answer yours.

First, the underlying purpose of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is to bring people to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass on Sunday and to the Sacrament of Reconciliation on a regular basis. Would it be possible for you to phrase your questions with that purpose in mind? Thank you.

Blessings,
granny

O Sacrament Most Holy,
O Sacrament Divine,
All praise and all thanksgiving,
be every moment Thine.

 

[St_Gabriel]

St. Gabriel,
did you ever get a straight answer? I have been asking these questions for a few weeks now, and I also get no answers only more questions. My daughter recently married into a family of “tongue speakers” she and her husband both told me this was “exactly like roman Catholicism” thier wedding ceremony in no way had ,recognizable catholic wedding rituals, just a priest bad mouthing Russian orthodox (my husbands faith) Catholics my faith , and just a bit of Irish bashing thrown in for good measure, I was kind of glad the “tongue speakers” were so distracting because I was able to drone out the bigotry being spewed by this man (newly installed house rule , NO ONE CALLS HIM FATHER IN MY HOUSE) who also never at any point made event he slightest reference to god!

Not really. I’m still mulling over the passages in Corrinthians to see if praying in tongues was an “unknown language” and I may read the book that Granny recommended. Personally, I don’t think the Charismatic group in my parish is for me. Many of things that granny speaks about in terms of the purpose (to bring catholics to a greater appreciation of mass and the sacraments) I already do, so I don’t see what the benefit would be for me to join them. It seems like a good outreach for those who were once Penticostal or in protestant churches that want to continue that style of worship and those who place a great bit of importance on the gift of tongues as long as it doesn’t interfere with the mass. And, it may be the catalyst the Church needs for some Catholics to become aware of their gifts and start using them for the benefit of building up the kingdom of God.

 

[St_Gabriel]

St. Gabriel,
did you ever get a straight answer? I have been asking these questions for a few weeks now, and I also get no answers only more questions. My daughter recently married into a family of “tongue speakers” she and her husband both told me this was “exactly like roman Catholicism” thier wedding ceremony in no way had ,recognizable catholic wedding rituals, just a priest bad mouthing Russian orthodox (my husbands faith) Catholics my faith , and just a bit of Irish bashing thrown in for good measure, I was kind of glad the “tongue speakers” were so distracting because I was able to drone out the bigotry being spewed by this man (newly installed house rule , NO ONE CALLS HIM FATHER IN MY HOUSE) who also never at any point made event he slightest reference to god!

Here’s a few questions for you. Did you ever hear those “tongue speakers” actually speak in tongues? And if you did, did it sound like a language (more than one syllable words, with variety in sentence structure and pauses)? Were they all speaking the same words at the same time? Any interpreters? How did it make you feel?

 

[grannymh]

Not really. I’m still mulling over the passages in Corrinthians to see if praying in tongues was an “unknown language” and I may read the book that Granny recommended. Personally, I don’t think the Charismatic group in my parish is for me. Many of things that granny speaks about in terms of the purpose (to bring catholics to a greater appreciation of mass and the sacraments) I already do, so I don’t see what the benefit would be for me to join them. It seems like a good outreach for those who were once Penticostal or in protestant churches that want to continue that style of worship and those who place a great bit of importance on the gift of tongues as long as it doesn’t interfere with the mass. And, it may be the catalyst the Church needs for some Catholics to become aware of their gifts and start using them for the benefit of building up the kingdom of God.

It is a true blessing that you are “mulling over passages in Corinthians.”

Many people who attend a Life in the Spirit seminar or on their own have the gift of prayer tongues (praying directly to God-- human interpreter is not needed) do not need to belong to a prayer group. One doesn’t need prayer group membership to pray a 30-second prayer in tongues before entering an hospital room. Nor does one need prayer group membership to pray a 30-second prayer in tongues for wisdom in choosing the right words to say to a friend or relative who may be considering a return to Catholicism.

Catholic Charismatic Prayer groups serve different very worthwhile functions both for the parish and the individual. Sometimes, they are just a powerhouse of prayer. Sometimes, they bring in well-known speakers as a public event which benefits everyone. Often the members serve specific functions in parish life.

Blessings,
granny

Praise God!

 

[grannymh]

Not really. I’m still mulling over the passages in Corrinthians to see if praying in tongues was an “unknown language” and I may read the book that Granny recommended. Personally, I don’t think the Charismatic group in my parish is for me.

If I were walking a mile in your moccasins (old neighborhood saying) I would try to read Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians, Chapter 14 as an admonishment to the pride-filled Corinthians who were familiar with the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. Footnote to verses 1-5 points out that Paul’s primary concern was a disproportionate interest in tongues, with a corresponding failure to appreciate the worth of prophecy. Through a series of contrasts, “Paul attempts to clarify the relative values of those gifts by indicating the kind of communication achieved in each and the kind of effect each produces.” Source: old edition of Saint Joseph Edition, The New American Bible.

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.

 

[St_Gabriel]

If I were walking a mile in your moccasins (old neighborhood saying) I would try to read Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians, Chapter 14 as an admonishment to the pride-filled Corinthians who were familiar with the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. Footnote to verses 1-5 points out that Paul’s primary concern was a disproportionate interest in tongues, with a corresponding failure to appreciate the worth of prophecy. Through a series of contrasts, “Paul attempts to clarify the relative values of those gifts by indicating the kind of communication achieved in each and the kind of effect each produces.” Source: old edition of Saint Joseph Edition, The New American Bible.

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.

Re: Chapter 14, I don’t see any reference that people should be praying in an unknown language but rather the opposite. In fact Paul writes:

What am I to do? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

It seems pretty clear to me that if a person is just babbling sylables without knowing what they are saying, it is pretty fruitless. Hence that is why Paul encourages the Corinthians to seek the gift of interpretation, so that they would know what they were saying. The two gifts go hand-in-hand.

I just can’t understand why God would give one person the gift of tongues without the gift of interpretation.

 

[St_Gabriel]

This passage bolded below from 1 Corinthians 14:1-8 was referred to earlier in this thread when someone posted as a passage that refers to unknown language is very hard for me to understand.

Make love your aim, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.

For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.
On the other hand, he who prophesies speaks to men for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation.
He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.
Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than he who speaks in tongues, unless some one interprets, so that the church may be edified.

It’s especially confusing because Paul writes “speaking in tongues” instead of “praying in tongues.”

 

[St_Gabriel]

Re: Chapter 14, I don’t see any reference that people should be praying in an unknown language but rather the opposite. In fact Paul writes:

What am I to do? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

It seems pretty clear to me that if a person is just babbling sylables without knowing what they are saying, it is pretty fruitless. Hence that is why Paul encourages the Corinthians to seek the gift of interpretation, so that they would know what they were saying. The two gifts go hand-in-hand.

I just can’t understand why God would give one person the gift of tongues without the gift of interpretation.

I should also add that Paul also emphases the idea that gift of prophesy was a higher gift as well.

 

[St_Gabriel]

The reason I give any credance to the charismatic movement is because an Auxilary Bishop in my area belongs to it and he usto be our Parish Priest and he is not only Pius but Intellectual. However, I can’t help but to reflect upon Matthew 6: 5-8. “In praying , do not babble like Pagans, who think they will be heard because of their many words”." When praying do not be like the hypocrites (Pharisees) who love to stand and pray in synagogues and on street corners so that everyone mat see them". Maybe it’s just about style, but I still prefer meditative prayer.

Moreover, I can’t help but think about this passage: Matt 6: 6 and how it compares to what Paul said about only God understanding you.

But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to **your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you. **

For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

 

[grannymh]

Re: Chapter 14, I don’t see any reference that people should be praying in an unknown language but rather the opposite. In fact Paul writes:

What am I to do? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

You are correct. There is no real direct reference that people should be praying in an unknown language. Paul was writing to people who not only knew the difference between the two distinct tongues gifts which are completely different from human language, but who were practicing both of them to the point that some were abusing the gifts. As the footnote points out. Paul’s primary concern was a disproportionate interest in tongues, with a corresponding failure to appreciate the worth of prophecy.

It seems pretty clear to me that if a person is just babbling sylables without knowing what they are saying, it is pretty fruitless. Hence that is why Paul encourages the Corinthians to seek the gift of interpretation, so that they would know what they were saying. The two gifts go hand-in-hand.

Actually, Paul was encouraging the Corinthians to use the secondform of speaking in tongues (in this passage, he calls it prophecy) which apparently they already had.
The Corinthians already knew the different tongues gifts and thus they would already know that someone would already have the gift of interpretation. Also, the person who had the first form of praying in tongues, could very well have the gift of interpretation. The Corinthians were experienced in both forms of tongues plus the additional gifts of the Holy Spirit which would include the gift of interpretation. None of this can make sense until one first realizes the Corinthian problem which Paul was addressing.

I just can’t understand why God would give one person the gift of tongues without the gift of interpretation.

Please pardon my bluntness. But from my experience on other threads, posters will never be able to understand why there is one kind of tongues which does not depend on human interpretation until they first accept the Pauline fact that there are two completely, different, distinct, unique Gifts of the Holy Spirit which are often referred to as “tongues”.

Blessings,
granny

John 3: 16-17

 

[grannymh]

Moreover, I can’t help but think about this passage: Matt 6: 6 and how it compares to what Paul said about only God understanding you.

But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to **your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you. **

For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

As for* Matthew 6:5-8,* this is the introduction to the Lord’s Prayer. Here Jesus was referring to real Pagans and living Pharisees and not to post-Pentecost Catholics including the converts of Peter and Paul.

Blessings,
granny

“The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?”
from the poem “Christmas” by George Herbert

 

[grannymh]

This passage bolded below from 1 Corinthians 14:1-8 was referred to earlier in this thread when someone posted as a passage that refers to unknown language is very hard for me to understand.

It’s especially confusing because Paul writes “speaking in tongues” instead of “praying in tongues.”

Again, please pardon my bluntness. The first problem is considering the two tongues as the same as the American phrase unknown language. Unless, one can move away from the concept of human language and can focus on God’s language or the Holy Spirit’s language, one will keep on having trouble with Paul’s double definitions for “speaking in tongues”.

The second problem is that the English translation applies “speaking in tongues” to two different gifts. Unless one first gets a solid grasp on the differences between The Holy Spirit’s two gifts of tongues, one will continue to have difficulty with Paul’s use of contrasts in his letter to the Corinthians who, by the way, were very knowledgeable regarding the two tongues different gifts. Please note that the gift of interpretation is a gift separate by itself from the tongues gifts.

Blessings,
granny

*Luke 24: 13-35 *

 

[grannymh]

Personally, I don’t think the Charismatic group in my parish is for me. .

St Gabriel and others,

As I said to another poster, I’m not here to argue the gifts but to explain the differences between gifts. Also, I am not here to convince anyone to accept anything. All I want to do is to explain the two gifts of tongues so that one can make an informed decision. One does not have to belong to a prayer group in order to pray to God in tongues.

It is very difficult for me to go into depth regarding the common gift of praying to God in tongues when it appears that it is being confused with the very rare gift of speaking a message from God to the community. Nor can I go into the very rare gift of speaking a message from God when it is confused with praying to God.

The difficulty with Paul’s letters is that he knows that his readers know which gift he is talking about.

Years ago, when I was in school theatre, there was a saying that theatre required a “willing suspension of disbelief” from the audience. Instead of worrying about unknown languages and missing interpretations, it really would be nice to talk about just one gift at a time. In my humble opinion, it is so much easier to start with the common gift praying to God in tongues. If only those pride-filled Corinthians could be suspended from our thoughts…

Blessings,
granny

“The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?”
from the poem “Christmas” by George Herbert

 

[jaq1966]

First, the underlying purpose of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is to bring people to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass on Sunday and to the Sacrament of Reconciliation on a regular basis. Would it be possible for you to phrase your questions with that purpose in mind? Thank you.

Blessings,
granny

That has to be the best advice I have received in way too long. Thank you Granny

A great Pius and smart man once told me after as I asked why we have all the treats out before mass, “if they come for the cookies, and aren’t interested in the god part of it, then god bless them and enjoy the cookies, they showed effort in just stopping by to say hello, but I find most stay for the god part too, …and enjoy both.”