SPLIT: Speaking in Tongues (Revisited)

[grannymh]

This is interesting. I always thought that prayer tongues had to be vocal and produce a sound, otherwise, it would be mental prayer. In your example, your tongue is moving to produce the sound, but no sound comes out.

I e-mailed the question about silently praying in tongues to a long-time leader in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

This is what I wrote:

Subject line: Need clarification- tongues

"It has been my understanding that prayer tongues can be prayed silently. In
this case, the tongue moves in about the same way it would when one prays
vocally. Lips may or may not move in accord with the tongue. The difference is
that there is no breath to make an actual sound.

Is this proper? Thanks."

“You are right.” was the reply I received.

What I have been doing for years is a way that people can pray in tongues privately after they receive the gift of prayer tongues.

The gift of praying in tongues can be received at any time. It may be that a person has already received the gift and simply needs to yield to it. As I look back, that may have happened to me.

When I first landed on CAF, I did a post on what it feels like when the gift of praying in tongues is first received. If there is a reader who would be interested in this post, I will redo it with modifications to fit the reader’s questions.

Blessings,
granny

“The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?”
from the poem “Christmas” by George Herbert

 

[St_Gabriel]

I e-mailed the question about silently praying in tongues to a long-time leader in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

This is what I wrote:

Subject line: Need clarification- tongues

"It has been my understanding that prayer tongues can be prayed silently. In
this case, the tongue moves in about the same way it would when one prays
vocally. Lips may or may not move in accord with the tongue. The difference is
that there is no breath to make an actual sound.

Is this proper? Thanks."

“You are right.” was the reply I received.

What I have been doing for years is a way that people can pray in tongues privately after they receive the gift of prayer tongues.

The gift of praying in tongues can be received at any time. It may be that a person has already received the gift and simply needs to yield to it. As I look back, that may have happened to me.

When I first landed on CAF, I did a post on what it feels like when the gift of praying in tongues is first received. If there is a reader who would be interested in this post, I will redo it with modifications to fit the reader’s questions.

Blessings,
granny

“The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?”
from the poem “Christmas” by George Herbert

I am very interested in reading that post. Can you direct us to it or post it for us?

 

[rainy64]

Thanks for sharing those wonderful experiences Rainy64. So in both of your situations (age 14 and praying with the ill man), it sounds like praying in tongues was not something that was forced. It was just sort of automatic response?

It was what felt right to do. I have control of it. I don’t go into a trance. I am in FULL control of whether I want to use “tongues” or not. I believe what people have said about the Holy Spirit - He is a gentleman and would never “force” himself on anyone.
The thing with the ill man was a fluke-it was the first time I EVER spoke in tongues outside my home and I was really stepping in Faith! He really could have had an angry or adverse reaction to it. His wife later telling me- he wanted a “sign” that God and the Holy Spirit had His hand on him through the illness.
Just as the Bible says the tongues is a sign for non- believers. He’s a believer- but he really needed that “sign” to boast his Faith! (If that church door had been the unlocked one- we NEVER would have had that inter action! And his instant reaction- with tears made me know it was the right way to pray and keep going.)
Some people I know who use tongues- repeat a sentence or two over and over…they have some deep emotion associated with it.

I can speak in tongues at will-anyplace- any circumstance.Calmly. I don’t get to shaking or anything like that. People have said they almost understand it- they can “feel” what the prayer is. (I have no idea-no one has ever interpreted mine-though I have been around it when others have had theirs interpreted).

    My "favorite time" is for people who ask for prayers- especially after I have been fasting..(I don't tell people when I do- It's my own thing- I don't get weak and seem even more clear-headed! ).  The COMBINATION is so very powerful!  :eek:
    Also, I could have only 4 hrs of sleep- then,quietly- in  my room speak in tongues for 15 minutes and I am rested like I had 8 hrs!  I can't explain it.  
   I know many Catholics haven't been around it much. (In my own family-only my parents and my daughter have heard me speak in tongues, my sister, my brothers and sisters in law, and other relatives have NEVER heard it). 
I'm not sure they are very familiar with it.  (we have one sister-in law who has embraced paganism, wiccan and witchcraft- so I pray in tongues quietly before I have to see her). She is VERY dark and I FEEL evil around her. But that's a different thread.

Rainy

 

[grannymh]

I am very interested in reading that post. Can you direct us to it or post it for us?

I have just returned to town. Found the notes for the post, but not the post itself.
My source for info says that people can begin to pray in tongues at anytime, even when listening to instructions on the gift. Perhaps the key issue is being able to recognize the gift and then use it freely.

Blessings,
granny

Praise God in prayer and deeds.

 

[grannymh]

Regarding praying in tongues, a gift of the Holy Spirit.

The key feeling is one of “yielding” to the Holy Spirit.

The Catholic Faith is full of descriptions of yielding beginning with Jesus Christ who yielded His life on the cross in obedience to the Father. “Father into Your hands…”
Luke 23: 33-56

Holy Scripture is full of ways that we should follow the example of Jesus and yield to the will of God. Holding the coin used to pay taxes, Jesus taught us to give to God, what belongs to God. We are the what who belongs to God. God is the potter, we are the clay. We are created in the Image of God. Through knowledge and love we can share in the Potter’s Divine life.

Keeping in mind, the teachings on yielding, we can understand the gift of praying in tongues as a partnership between the Holy Spirit and ourselves when we yield to Him. We physically yield to the Holy Spirit by deliberately giving over to the Holy Spirit our natural possession of language. Being able to communicate intelligently, rationally, and with definite meanings for each sound/word is part of human nature. Language is a possession which distinguishes us from the rest of creation. Being able to freely choose our actions also marks our nature as unique. In other words, we can both think the thoughts and share the thoughts with others.

When we partner up with the Holy Spirit, we are admitting that He understands what thoughts we wish to give to God, that is, thoughts which can be praise, adoration, thanksgiving, sorrow, and most of the time our petitions for God’s help. When we yield to the Holy Spirit, we are turning over to Him our physical means of language which are our lips, tongue, larynx or vocal chords. We are turning over to the Holy Spirit our physical voice mechanism so that He can use it for our benefit. He knows the what and how of praying.

At this point, one should be careful not to rate one kind of prayer over another. We did not roll out from a factory assembly line; we are created as beloved individuals. Thus, God respects our individuality and hears our prayers as we choose to pray them. God interacts with us as an unique, totally special creation.

The way we physically yield our voice mechanism is to simply let our lips relax, perhaps slightly open or in a smile, so they are ready to form words. The same goes for the tongue which should not be stuck to the roof of our mouth or trying to get some piece of food out from between our teeth. Those of us who are control freaks or are perfectionists are going to have difficulty. A bit of laughter and lots of humility will get us through this part.

Actually, this type of relaxed readiness is the same way we automatically get ready to speak in our native language. The difference is that instead of using lips and tongue to form the proper words which are the thoughts we want to express to others, we don’t think about our choice of words. We stop thinking about what we want to say and direct our focus to God. We set aside our fears and doubts. One of many ways to begin is to call on the Living Spirit of Holy Love and say His name softly to yourself. Let other names for the Holy Spirit flow from within you. It doesn’t matter if the names are mixed up. Simply smile and let the Holy Spirit guide your tongue and lips into His language.

Some advice I will always remember is to try praying in tongues in the shower. One friend said that she considers the shower as being like the flowing, refreshing graces of the Holy Spirit.

Continued on Post 105

 

[grannymh]

Continued from Post 104
Regarding praying in tongues, a gift of the Holy Spirit.

Truly, there is no set pattern for getting our speech mechanism ready for the Holy Spirit’s use. In whatever way we can, we open ourselves to the movement of the Holy Spirit.

A speech therapist may have a different way of explaining what comes next. Hopefully, one will comment. For now, I will speak from my own experience. It seems that it is my breath coming from within which makes the sounds which the lips and tongue form into the words. Those who speak both English and French understand the different ways the lips form certain words.

In the beginning when I first yielded to the Holy Spirit, I let the breath come forth but did not pay attention to the sound. There was this kind of feeling that the tongue should be moving or maybe the lips should direct the sound. A strange word was floating in my mind. I just let everything happen. That strange word seemed to become the strange sound that I released as I let my tongue and lips do their thing. I trusted that the Holy Spirit was in charge. A couple of sounds or words, it didn’t matter which was which, were somehow being added. Because I was with a group of people who were completing the Life in the Spirit Seminar and who were praying silently, I walked outside so as not to disturb anyone.

Actually, I wanted to test if I had control over praying in tongues. I did. I stopped praying. Then, I made sure no one was near, gathered up my courage, looked up as if I could really see the Holy Spirit, and let my breath and sounds come up and out. The sounds seemed more like foreign words to me so I let them continue and discovered a cadence to whatever the Holy Spirit was praying within me. The Life in the Spirit Seminar was being held in an educational building on the parish grounds. As I walked and prayed outside, I discovered the Church door was open because someone was cleaning. Why this person was doing this in the evening–I have no clue. But I immediately recognized the connection between Jesus truly present in the Blessed Sacrament and my praying in tongues.

Just as there is no set pattern to yielding our speech mechanism to the Holy Spirit, there is no set pattern for the gift of praying in tongues. Often people need help in yielding or in recognizing that the first sounds coming forth are the beginning of prayer tongues. The Life in the Spirit Seminars and similar gatherings which I have attended have had experienced charismatics who support the person seeking the gift. This includes instructing people who do not pray in tongues following being prayed over. Many times, normal fear of being embarrassed blocks the gift. Many times, these people will wake up the next day, yawn, and begin with the first sounds of prayer tongues. These first sounds should be repeated and repeated. It is not the beauty of our own words which is important; rather it is the beauty of the Holy Spirit’s choice of tongues which is primary.

Continued on post 106

 

[grannymh]

Continued from Post 105
Regarding praying in tongues, a gift of the Holy Spirit.

Since praying in tongues can happen at any time, the question is – How does one know when it happens privately? I have no clue as to the answer. I do know that one’s humility and trust in the Holy Spirit signifies a partnership with God which can lead to the gift given privately.

My source book comments: “Frequently, a person begins to pray in tongues during the course of instruction provided by the prayer community.” Even though there are objections to praying in tongues on CAF, I have seen many posts praising the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. My guess is that although CAF is definitely not a charismatic prayer community, there is some good information here.

When I have helped someone yield to the Holy Spirit, I often point out that the strong desire to be obedient to the Holy Spirit, that is, to be open to the prayer gift of the Holy Spirit can be a sign that the first sounds one utters is the beginning of prayer tongues.

My personal suggestion is that when one experiences an internal desire to pray in the Spirit, that is, to pray using the gift of prayer tongues, one should let one’s voice mechanism respond. One could even begin by praising God in one’s native language, letting the thought of praise remain as the lips and tongue slowly alter sounds. Or, after putting one’s soul into a vernacular praise prayer, one could quiet the voice mechanism and setting aside doubts, one can yield to the Holy Spirit.

When I pray out loud with a charismatic group, I often include English words such as we praise You God, we give You glory and then I return to praying in tongues. For me, the combination strengthens the gift. The key is to respond, in some way, to the desire to offer praise to God.

My next suggestion is that if one receives the gift of praying in tongues privately or even weeks after one has been prayed over, don’t be judgmental. Keep focusing on God, thanking Him for giving you the grace to pray in the vernacular and in prayer tongues. Remember that the gift of praying in prayer tongues is a permanent gift. Once one is comfortable in yielding the voice mechanism to the Holy Spirit, a person can pray in tongues at any time throughout earthly life.

Please do not hesitate to ask questions.

Blessings,
granny

Praise God always.

A Key to Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church** ISBN: 0-87029-033-9**
by Msgr. Vincent M. Walsh
Key of David Publications

 

[grannymh]

The following is a semi-poetic description of praying in tongues.

The Holy Spirit is ready for us.
He is ready to form a special language of praise, thanksgiving, adoration, contrition, petition and giving oneself totally to God.

It is our childlike trust we bring to the Holy Spirit, opening our mouths and letting Him set the words on our tongues.
We can feel their weight, the tug and pull to move the tongue in His speech.

Our breath is eager to carry the words to God. Our lips kiss the words and give them their final beautiful shape.

And God smiles upon our efforts.

We are quiet for a moment. We feel the Holy Spirit whisper in our throats.
How He longs for our trust.
The Holy Spirit within us prays with our voices transformed.

There’s a new language within our hearts that calls for a new Pentecost for all. And we give our simple sounds as a pledge of our faith.

God smiles upon our efforts as He listens, as He listens.

 

[Prieldedi]

This topic is interesting and controversial. My apologies in advance to those who see it differently.

How is it possible that a gift from the Holy Spirit laid dormant for 1900+ years and resurfaced in Protestant churches, not in the Catholic Church? How is it possible that this gift dodged all the saints of the Church making no appearance among them? If it is from God, where was it for the Apostles, the Church Fathers, St. Augustine, St. Thomas of Aquinas, St. Francis of Assisi, St. Ignatius of Loyola, St. John of the Cross, St. Theresa of Jesus?

Growing up and having been educated in schools run by the Jesuits and Christian Brothers, I never heard of anything similar to “speaking in tongues” in the way it’s presented by the Charismatic movement. The first time I heard of this new interpretation of “speaking in tongues” was in the mid 1970’s, after the Charismatic movement had made its presence in my country. It was until the early years of the 2000’s that I learned of the connection between the Catholic Charismatic movement and the Protestant movement that gave it its birth. I learned also that it was not the first time in history that a group had claimed “speaking in tongues” in the manner the Charismatic movement does today.

The book “Enthusiasm, A Chapter in the History of Religion” (Ronald A. Knox), shows that history records a considerable number of movements that have made similar statements, from the Montanists of the 2nd Century, the Paulist the 8th Century, to an abundant number in the Middle Ages, as the Fraticelli the 13th Century, the Cathars, the Waldensians, the Apostolics, the Poor Men of Lyons, the Jansenists, the Illuminatis, the flagellant Heretics, the Brotherhood of the Free Spirit and the Beggards. All of them asserted exactly the same.

The peculiar feature is that they see themselves as the faithful remnant, the true inheritors of the Tradition or the Deposit of Faith, somehow forgotten or ruined by the Universal Church. Or they see themselves as the spiritual members as opposed to the carnal members of the Church. Or as the pure (Cathars means pure), which cannot sin, or that they are somehow above the law, to which sin is not imputed on them as such. In some charismatic circles it is commonly referred to a non-charismatic as “someone who is not converted yet”, even though the non-charismatic might be a priest.

Many of these groups were distinctly anti-clerical (we have THE Spirit, we don’t need the Hierarchy), scorned the Sacraments (we have THE Spirit, there is no need for anything else), they valued more their own spirituality and their personal inspirations. They considered themselves as the True Church of the Holy Spirit. Many claimed to have different “spiritual” manifestations that confirmed their beliefs, like the Jansenists who said that their “miracles” proved they were right and the Jesuits were wrong, whom they considered their enemies. In the end the truth is that all of them were movements that eventually resulted in heresies, and received the official condemnation of Rome.

Is the “speaking in tongues” we see today the same one that really happened 2,000 years ago? I think they are two totally different things. I don’t believe what today is presented as “speaking in tongues” to be a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Its absence from history for such a long long time, its condemnation by Rome in its previous appearances and its reappearance in Protestant churches leads me to reject it as not from God. I searched the internet and found many sites in this line of thought that reject not only the “speaking in tongues” but other charismatic manifestation as well. These are a few of them:

Charismatic controversy
Can catholics be charismatic?
Comments by Fr. Abe about Speaking in tongues
The Catholic Pentecostal Movement
Is the Charismatic Movement Catholic?

God bless

 

[grannymh]

This topic is interesting and controversial. My apologies in advance to those who see it differently.

Thank you for presenting your concerns in a fair manner and not as an attack.

The two separate gifts which include tongues were controversial starting from Pentecost. That is why St.Paul used strong language to the people of Corinth who were not handling the gifts in the intended manner.

I believe it was the Montanists (or a group with a similar name) which severely damaged the two practices of praying in tongues to God and presenting God’s message of salvation through the second gift of tongues. The sad consequence is that lay people put aside these important gifts even though there is evidence that the gifts continued in some form at least through the first eight centuries.

As one reads the lives of saints, one does find evidence of the nine classical gifts of the Holy Spirit listed by St. Paul. However, they seem to appear more as individual gifts rather than gifts used in a parish community. It is possible that some prayers and experiences in God’s presence found in monasteries could have been in the form of praying in tongues.

As for why Catholics turned back to Pentecost as presented in Acts and the writings of St. Paul, it is my humble opinion that in the 20th and now the 21st centuries, God is using the Catholic Charismatic Renewal as a way of renewing His Church.

My apology for not being able to completely address this entire post. I will be traveling without a laptop computer close to two weeks. Also, I need to study the links you provided.
In the meantime, the book which does answer a number of your questions is:

A Key to Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church** ISBN: 0-87029-033-9**

by Msgr. Vincent M. Walsh
Key of David Publications

This second book is a source book. Fanning the Flame is more like a pamphlet and easier to read.

Christian Initiation and Baptism in the Holy Spirit
Evidence from the First Eight Centuries
ISBN 0-8146-5009-0
by Kilian McDonnell, O.S.B. and George Montague, S.M.

Kilian McDonnell, O.S.B. and George Montague, S.M. are also editors of a document based on “The Heart of the Church Consultation” held May 6 -11, 1990 in Techny,
Illinois. This document is "Fanning the Flame, What Does Baptism in the Holy Spirit Have to Do with Christian Initiation?" ISBN 0-8146-5013-9

Blessings,
granny

The search for spiritual truth needs Catholicism.

 

[grannymh]

This topic is interesting and controversial. My apologies in advance to those who see it differently.

My curiosity got the best of me and I looked at one of the links.

Found this. “then I asked them why are they speaking in that manner, they answered me that it is part of their worship which is called “praying in tongues”. They said that by praying in tongues, satan did not know what they are saying and only god can interpret that. And if I’m not mistaken, his org is YFC, one of the family ministry of CFC.”

This is not the true purpose of the actual practice of the two tongues gifts of the Holy Spirit. May I suggest that you go back through my posts on this thread where I try to explain the actual gifts of tongues. Since I have not specifically addressed Satan, you may have questions. I will do my best to answer them in the future. There may be a few times where I will have access to a computer…

Nonetheless, as I think about Satan, I have read that the Catholic Charismatic Renewal came about in order to combat Satan in these two centuries. In my humble opinion, it is not really important if Satan understands what the Holy Spirit is praying through the gift of praying in tongues. Satan easily recognizes prayer and wants to stop it.

Thank God that we have the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and can receive the Real Presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist.

Blessings,
granny

“The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?”
from the poem “Christmas” by George Herbert

 

[Prieldedi]

Thank you for presenting your concerns in a fair manner and not as an attack…

Thank you too. I would go with St. John of the Cross, a mystical writer and Doctor of the Church, who warned us not to seek manifestations (private revelations, et al) from the Holy Spirit:

“Wherein the devil habitually meddles so freely [in extraordinary phenomenon] that I believe it impossible for a man not to be deceived by them, unless he strive to reject them, such an appearance of truth and security does the Devil give them.”

If people are deceived by individuals they can see, hear and touch, how can they be so confident to believe blindly in someone they can’t see? How can they be sure it’s the Holy Spirit the voice they hear in their minds? Today we have hundred of thousands, if not millions, of Christians who actually believe that these manifestations are from the Holy Spirit.

I refer to two passages in the New Testament that show us that the HS doesn’t speak “to all at all times”:

Matthew 16:
13 After that Jesus came to Caesarea Philippi. He asked his disciples, “What do people say of the Son of Man? Who do they say I am?”
14 They said, “For some of them you are John the Baptist, for others Elijah or Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 Jesus asked them, “But you, who do you say I am?”
16 Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, "It is well for you, Simon Barjona, for it is not flesh or blood that has revealed this to you but my Father in heaven.

Why does God reveal who Jesus is only to Peter? The “12 chosen” were there with Jesus, yet God talks only to one of them. Another thing to consider here is that we know God talked to only one of the 12 because Jesus himself told us so. Reading further in this chapter we see in verse 23, just 6 verses later, that again a spirit talks to Peter, but this time it’s not God, but Satan! This happened in a matter of minutes, first God, now Satan. We see how easy it was for Satan to talk to Peter, even with Jesus present! We know this because Jesus himself again told us so. But Jesus ascended to heaven 2,000 years ago, and He is not among us to tell us each time God or Satan talks to any of us as He did in Matthew 16. That’s why we should follow what St. John of the Cross asks us, to be careful, for it’s very easy for Satan to interfere, specially if we open the door thinking the HS will enter and instead Satan comes in.

Next case, Acts 8:
29 The Spirit said to Philip, “Go and catch up with that carriage.”
30 So Philip ran up and heard the man reading the prophet Isaiah; and he asked, “Do you really understand what you are reading?” The Ethiopian replied,
31 “How can I, unless someone explains it to me?” He then invited Philip to get in and sit beside him.

Why didn’t the Spirit talk directly to the Ethiopian? If the HS talks to anyone as charismatics today believe He does, what prevented Him to talk to the Ethiopian then? We should conclude that the HS doesn’t manifest itself “to all at all times”, but to a few, a very select few.

What is missing today is what’s called “discernment of spirits”. Too easily charismatics claim that anything they experience comes from the HS. No one can command or force the Holy Spirit to come to him. It is the Holy Spirit the one that decides, at the discretion of the Father, to whom He will speak. Christian history has shown us that the Holy Spirit does not manifest itself in the manner that charismatics say He does.

One final thought. Look at Acts 2:
2 And suddenly out of the sky came a sound like a strong rushing wind and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. There appeared
3 tongues as if of fire which parted and came to rest upon each one of them.
4 All were filled with Holy Spirit and began to speak other languages, as the Spirit enabled them to speak.

This is the true manifestation of the HS on Pentecost, “rushing wind”, “tongues as if of fire which parted and came to rest upon each one of them”. Does the HS manifest itself like this today? No? Why not?

And speaking of “speaking in tongues”, the Apostles spoke “other languages” they didn’t know, not the strange sounds we hear at charismatic gatherings.

Acts 2:
7 Beside themselves with amazement and wonder, they said, "Are not all these who are speaking Galileans?
8 How is it that we hear them in our own native language?
9 Here are Parthians, Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
10 Phrygia, Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome,
11 both Jews and foreigners who accept Jewish beliefs, Cretians and Arabians; and all of us hear them proclaiming in our own language what God, the Savior, does.

This is the true “speaking in tongues”… “HOW IS IT THAT WE HEAR THEM IN OUR OWN NATIVE LANGUAGE?”

Paul also warned us:

“Our battle is not against human forces but against the RULERS AND AUTHORITIES AND THEIR DARK POWERS that govern this world. We are struggling against the SPIRITS and SUPERNATURAL FORCES of evil.” Ephesians 6:12

“It is not surprising: if Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.” 2 Corinthians 11:14

We must be alert, we must keep in mind that the devil disguised as an angel (spirit) of light gives these manifestations “such an appearance of truth and security”.

God bless

 

[grannymh]

Thank you too. I would go with St. John of the Cross, a mystical writer and Doctor of the Church, who warned us not to seek manifestations (private revelations, et al) from the Holy Spirit:

Next case, Acts 8:
29 The Spirit said to Philip, “Go and catch up with that carriage.”
30 So Philip ran up and heard the man reading the prophet Isaiah; and he asked, “Do you really understand what you are reading?” The Ethiopian replied,
31 “How can I, unless someone explains it to me?” He then invited Philip to get in and sit beside him.

Acts 2:
7 Beside themselves with amazement and wonder, they said, "Are not all these who are speaking Galileans?
8 How is it that we hear them in our own native language?
9 Here are Parthians, Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
10 Phrygia, Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome,
11 both Jews and foreigners who accept Jewish beliefs, Cretians and Arabians; and all of us hear them proclaiming in our own language what God, the Savior, does.

This is the true “speaking in tongues”… “HOW IS IT THAT WE HEAR THEM IN OUR OWN NATIVE LANGUAGE?”

God bless

My apology for cutting your excellent post, but I couldn’t fit everything in this one reply. I will have to deal with the rest when I am home.

Briefly, because of traveling. There is a general lack of knowledge of what tongues actually is according to Catholicism. What is needed is an understanding of the difference between yielding to the Holy Spirit and listening to something in their minds. tongues is not especially a seeking as St. John of the Cross refers to. Unless one says that a person seeks the will of God. But even with this kind of seeking, one is willing to turn oneself over to God. The first form of tongues which is praying to God involves one giving oneself to God. The term which is used is “yielding to the Holy Spirit.”

The second form of tongues which is relaying God’s message of salvation to the community requires preparation, i.e., one needs to be mature in spirituality. Discernment plays a large role when one is learning about this classical gift listed by St. Paul. In fact, some people refer to this gift as a ministry to the Church.

There is also a lack of knowledge as to how current authentic Catholic Charismatic Renewal groups conduct their meetings. For example “discernment of spirits” is an ongoing practice whenever there is the gift of speaking God’s message of salvation to the community.

What you are referring to is a lot of misunderstandings about the role of the Holy Spirit in Catholicism. The Holy Spirit should not be limited by certain Scripture verses.

I am very familiar with Acts 2, 5-11 because this is not an example of the two gifts of tongues It is properly referred to as a miracle of hearing or a similar designation because of verse 11, "…yet, we hear them speaking in our own tongues.

I need to study all of Acts chapter 8. But it sounds like Philip is using one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, listed by St. Paul. These are a particular set of nine gifts. Part of the problem is that people do not learn about the Charismatic gifts and how they are to be used following Pentecost.

The last thing I wish to point out is that the Holy Spirit came in a very special way on Pentecost. This is because of His mission to guide the Catholic Church when it was established in real time after the Ascension.

The above really isn’t brief. But, to me it only touches the surface of what the Holy Spirit has given our Catholic Church.

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.

 

[StTommyMore]

I just have to weigh in here. The Charismatic renewal has been approved by the Church. What does this mean? It is True. It is that simple: anything approved by the Church is all True and all Good. You cannot truy be Catholic unless you are bothe Charismatic and Traditional.

 

[grannymh]

“Our battle is not against human forces but against the RULERS AND AUTHORITIES AND THEIR DARK POWERS that govern this world. We are struggling against the SPIRITS and SUPERNATURAL FORCES of evil.” Ephesians 6:12

“It is not surprising: if Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.” 2 Corinthians 11:14

The Catholic response is the Sacrament of Reconciliation and the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist.

We must be alert, we must keep in mind that the devil disguised as an angel (spirit) of light gives these manifestations “such an appearance of truth and security”.

God bless

Material goods is one such appearance.

 

[Prieldedi]

My apology for cutting your excellent post, but I couldn’t fit everything in this one reply. I will have to deal with the rest when I am home.

Briefly, because of traveling. There is a general lack of knowledge of what tongues actually is according to Catholicism. What is needed is an understanding of the difference between yielding to the Holy Spirit and listening to something in their minds. tongues is not especially a seeking as St. John of the Cross refers to. Unless one says that a person seeks the will of God. But even with this kind of seeking, one is willing to turn oneself over to God. The first form of tongues which is praying to God involves one giving oneself to God. The term which is used is “yielding to the Holy Spirit.”

The second form of tongues which is relaying God’s message of salvation to the community requires preparation, i.e., one needs to be mature in spirituality. Discernment plays a large role when one is learning about this classical gift listed by St. Paul. In fact, some people refer to this gift as a ministry to the Church.

There is also a lack of knowledge as to how current authentic Catholic Charismatic Renewal groups conduct their meetings. For example “discernment of spirits” is an ongoing practice whenever there is the gift of speaking God’s message of salvation to the community.

Blessings,
granny

I’d like to post here the explanation given in this link Comments by Fr. Abe about Speaking in tongues:

[Speaking in tongues should not be taken lightly. We open our soul to a spirit whom we don’t know where it comes from.]

Very true, Bro. Tito.

Jesus is perfectly filled with the Holy Hpirit yet He never spoke in tongues:

“The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed,” [Luke 4:18]

See, the effects of the presence of the Holy Spirit in Jesus is not speaking in tongues but rather increased sense of mission. Then after saying that Jesus preached in normal language inside the synagogue. No gibberish sounds.

Haven’t we notice that Mama Mary was filled with the Holy Spirit… she was overshadowed by the power of the Spirit [cf. Luke 1:35] Yet she didn’t speak in tongues rather she helped Elizabeth *[cf. Luke 1:39] and sung the Magnificat [cf. Luke 1:46ff.].
*
When St. Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit she pronounced the words “Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb” [cf. Luke 1:41]. Again, nothing gibberish.

The Bible is clear on the gifts or fruits of the Holy Spirit:

*Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

Gal 5:23 meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.*

Look, not one of them is speaking in tongues with a gibberish sounds.

Gal 5:24 And they that are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with the passions and the lusts thereof.

The presence of the Spirit is manifested in the fact that our passions and lust have been controlled because they are already crucified in the flesh.

*Gal 5:25 If we live by the Spirit, by the Spirit let us also walk.

Gal 5:26 Let us not be vainglorious, provoking one another, envying one another.*

The presence of the Spirit is manifested by life of active faith and genuine fraternal love.

---

I checked the word “yield/yielding” in the New Testament. These are the passages with that word:

“From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven is something to be conquered and the unyielding seize it.” Matthew 11:12

“Therefore I say to you: the kingdom of heaven will be taken from you and given to a people who will yield a harvest.” Matthew 21:43

“But some seed fell on good soil, grew and increased and yielded grain; some produced thirty times as much, others sixty and others one hundred times as much.” Mark 4:8

“but we refused to yield even for a moment; so that the truth of the Gospel remain intact in you.” Galatians 2:5

“Then he prayed again: the sky yielded rain and the earth produced its fruit.” James 5:18

Nothing about “yielding to the Holy Spirit”.

 

[Prieldedi]

I just have to weigh in here. The Charismatic renewal has been approved by the Church. What does this mean? It is True. It is that simple: anything approved by the Church is all True and all Good. You cannot truy be Catholic unless you are bothe Charismatic and Traditional.

History shows that’s not the case.

You have The Knights Templars, approved by the Church but lasted only close to two hundred years. They were the earliest founders of the military orders, and are the type on which the others are modeled. They are marked in history (1) by their humble beginning, (2) by their marvelous growth, and (3) by their tragic end. Read about them here.

It happens that things approved by the Church can take the wrong turn.

One does not need to be a Charismatic to be a true Catholic. Do you have an official Church document stating that? Or is it your personal opinion?

 

[grannymh]

I just have to weigh in here. The Charismatic renewal has been approved by the Church. What does this mean? It is True. It is that simple: anything approved by the Church is all True and all Good. You cannot truy be Catholic unless you are bothe Charismatic and Traditional.

May I ask if you are using the word “Charismatic” in the language of the Catholic Church which sometimes uses the word Charism as another word for the many, many Gifts of the Holy Spirit. As an example, the *Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, *refers to the Gifts and Fruits of the Holy Spirit in paragraphs 1830 -1832. These particular gifts are known as the Isaiah Gifts. Other gifts are referred to as ministries within the Mystical Body of Christ.

In practice, a person may be considered “Charismatic” as one receiving various gifts of the Holy Spirit without ever praying in tongues to God.

 

[grannymh]

Please note that I am traveling without a laptop. So my access to a computer depends on where I am at the moment.

I do need to respond to the links in post 108.
I have not forgotten.
However, I prefer to respond to them when I can compare them to other sources which I do not have with me.

 

[grannymh]

I’d like to post here the explanation given in this link Comments by Fr. Abe about Speaking in tongues:

[Speaking in tongues should not be taken lightly. We open our soul to a spirit whom we don’t know where it comes from.]

Very true, Bro. Tito.

Dang! I wish I could get to my source regarding Protestant history. The above comments sound like something coming from an old controversy. But please don’t quote me because I am remembering one source which may be an opinion and not necessarily accurate.

I can assure you that Catholics do know Who the Holy Spirit is when they pray to God.

Jesus is perfectly filled with the Holy Spirit yet He never spoke in tongues:

“The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed,” [Luke 4:18]

See, the effects of the presence of the Holy Spirit in Jesus is not speaking in tongues but rather increased sense of mission. Then after saying that Jesus preached in normal language inside the synagogue. No gibberish sounds.

The reasons Jesus did not speak in the two gifts of “tongues” are 1. He is God. 2. Jesus did not need gifts which are meant to aid humans who would be living after His crucifixion. and 3. These gifts were given as part of the Pentecostal experience which followed His ascension into heaven.

Haven’t we notice that Mama Mary was filled with the Holy Spirit… she was overshadowed by the power of the Spirit [cf. Luke 1:35] Yet she didn’t speak in tongues rather she helped Elizabeth *[cf. Luke 1:39] *and sung the Magnificat [cf. Luke 1:46ff.].

When St. Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit she pronounced the words “Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb”* [cf. Luke 1:41]*. Again, nothing gibberish.

These wonderful and very holy events predated Pentecost.

The Bible is clear on the gifts or fruits of the Holy Spirit:

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

Gal 5:23 meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Look, not one of them is speaking in tongues with a gibberish sounds.

Gal 5:24 And they that are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with the passions and the lusts thereof.

The presence of the Spirit is manifested in the fact that our passions and lust have been controlled because they are already crucified in the flesh.

Gal 5:25 If we live by the Spirit, by the Spirit let us also walk.

Gal 5:26 Let us not be vainglorious, provoking one another, envying one another.

The presence of the Spirit is manifested by life of active faith and genuine fraternal love.

Thank you. Now I have evidence of the claim that there are hundreds of Gifts of the Holy Spirit which are mentioned in Scripture.

Note: We are on the same page regarding so many things about Catholicism. Hopefully in the future, I may adequately explain the Catholic Charismatic Renewal in the light of the Catholic Church.

I checked the word “yield/yielding” in the New Testament. These are the passages with that word:

“From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven is something to be conquered and the unyielding seize it.” Matthew 11:12

“Therefore I say to you: the kingdom of heaven will be taken from you and given to a people who will yield a harvest.” Matthew 21:43

“But some seed fell on good soil, grew and increased and yielded grain; some produced thirty times as much, others sixty and others one hundred times as much.” Mark 4:8

“but we refused to yield even for a moment; so that the truth of the Gospel remain intact in you.” Galatians 2:5

“Then he prayed again: the sky yielded rain and the earth produced its fruit.” James 5:18

Nothing about “yielding to the Holy Spirit”.

True. They are marvelous examples of yielding. I need to study the context in order to comment further.

However, post 108 is a priority when I get back home.

Blessings,
granny

John 3:16 & 17