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StTommyMore
Guest
typical for a radical traditionalist… ignore the doctors when it suits them
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Prieldedi
Guest
It amazes me how soon you forget your own words:
“You cannot reject a thought based on the thinker.”
Yet here you are rejecting a thought based on the thinker. You even call me “radical traditionalist”. I had already told you the thought is not mine, it’s the warning St. Augustine and St. John of the Cross gave us. They are the real thinkers you are rejecting.
Regarding the sentence from St. Thomas Aquinas: is this the best you can do, name calling? I expected from you at least a sound argument about the importance of this quote, specially regarding the discernment of the gifts of the Holy Spirit coming from non Catholics.
If someone is ignoring the Doctors (St. Augustine and St. John of the Cross) when it suits him, it’s you.
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StTommyMore
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It is like this. Charismatic gifts do not have their origin in the Protestants. There are several passages in Acts detailing Charismatic gifts.At. Paul praises them, even to the point of saying that we should all desire the gift of prophesy. I get sick and tired of radicals putting God in a box. If some point of spirituality does match yours, then it is obviously wrong. Give me a break. The Church is NOT the Borg Collective, no matter how much you wish it were. Get on the side of the popes, and admit that the Charismatic Renewal is a valid movement within the Church.
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Prieldedi
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I have been saying that it’s the warnings given by two Doctors of the Church what I have been posting. You haven’t provided a piece of evidence that proves that it isn’t what they warned us, nor that they are not their warnings.
Instead, you keep ignoring what St. Augustine and St. John of the Cross said:
“7. How then, brethren, because he that is baptized in Christ, and believes on Him, does not speak now in the tongues of all nations, are we not to believe that he has received the Holy Ghost? God forbid that our heart should be tempted by this faithlessness. Certain we are that every man receives: but only as much as the vessel of faith that he shall bring to the fountain can contain, so much does He fill of it. Since, therefore, the Holy Ghost is even now received by men, some one may say, Why is it that no man speaks in the tongues of all nations? Because the Church itself now speaks in the tongues of all nations. Before, the Church was in one nation, where it spoke in the tongues of all. By speaking then in the tongues of all, it signified what was to come to pass; that by growing among the nations, it would speak in the tongues of all. Whoso is not in this Church, does not now receive the Holy Ghost. For, being cut off and divided from the unity of the members, which unity speaks in the tongues of all, let him declare for himself; he has it not. For if he has it, let him give the sign which was given then. What do we mean by saying, Let him give the sign which was then given? Let him speak in all tongues. He answers me: How then, do you speak in all tongues? Clearly I do; for every tongue is mine, namely, of the body of which I am a member. The Church, spread among the nations, speaks in all tongues; the Church is the body of Christ, in this body you are a member: therefore, since you are a member of that body which speaks with all tongues, believe that thou too speakest with all tongues. For the unity of the members is of one mind by charity; and that unity speaks as one man then spoke.”
St. Augustine, Tractate 32 (John 7:37-39)
“What the soul is to man’s body, the Holy Spirit is to the Body of Christ, which is the Church. The Holy Spirit does in the whole Church what the soul does in all members of one body. But see what you must beware of, see what you must take note of, see what you must fear. It happens that in the human body, or rather, off the body, some member, whether hand, finger, or foot, may be cut away. And if a member be cut off, does the soul go with it? When the member was in the body, it lived; and off, its life is lost. So too, a Christian man is Catholic while he lives in the body; cut off, he is made a heretic; the Spirit does not follow an amputated member.”
St. Augustine, Sermons, 267, 4, 391-430 A.D.
… wherein the devil habitually meddles so freely that I believe it impossible for a man not to be deceived in many of them unless he strive to reject them, such an appearance of truth and security does the devil give them? For he brings together so many appearances and probabilities, in order that they may be believed, and plants them so firmly in the sense and the imagination…
St. John of the Cross, Ascent of Mount Carmel (Book II, XXVII, 6)
I will not address the personal remarks you make about me.
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Luigi_Daniele
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May I ask again: how does one know that the tongues they are speaking are an authentic gift from God?
I have seen people do it, who seem to be very authentic, and I’ve seen people do it that seemed like they were making it up.
I have seen people do it, who seem to be very authentic, and I’ve seen people do it that seemed like they were making it up.
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StTommyMore
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Then address the Scriptures.
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Prieldedi
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Why don’t you start by telling us how Scriptures contradict the quotes from the two Saints?
Do like I did with your quote from St. Thomas, which I proved to be not for discernment of the spirits.
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grannymh
Guest
As far as praying to God in tongues, the person would know if he or she were truly yielding to the Holy Spirit. By this I mean that the person allows the Holy Spirit to form the words by using one’s own speech mechanism.
As for speaking God’s message to the community, this is a ministry which must be prepared for usually under guidance from an experienced charismatic.
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Luigi_Daniele
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Thank you
My focus was how do I know if someone else has the authentic gift, though?
I guess “by their fruits shall you know them”…
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grannymh
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I am still traveling and need to leave.Thank you
My focus was how do I know if someone else has the authentic gift, though?
I guess “by their fruits shall you know them”…
But you started my brain/heart thinking and feeling…
Perhaps, a key might be for the person who is praying in tongues to look at his or her own life for fruits. I don’t necessarily mean “consolation” because one should be praying in dry spells. I mean growing in humility, seeking understanding from Scripture and the beautiful words of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Also, growing in trust that one’s private prayers in tongues beneifits the Mystical Body of Christ the same way that private prayers in English can be ones of adoration, thanksgiving, contrition and petition.
Please note that the above only refeers to the common gift of praying to God with the gift of prayer tongues. It does not refer to the classical gift listed by St. Paul which is speaking God’s message of salvation to the community in tongues.
I will answer your additional questions when able…
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CharlesMichael
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the link is from a sedevacantist group who promotes an unapproved apparition. that raises a red flag!
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Luigi_Daniele
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Thank you
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Prieldedi
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I’m aware of that, and the flag should be raised when discussing their views on those two issues. They believe practically in everything all Catholics believe. Their support for those two issues doesn’t mean that their belief that Mary is Ever Virgin is wrong.
In this instance they are referring to a Charismatic gathering that took place in 1977 in Toronto. If that’s a lie I hope someone that knows that the gathering didn’t occur at all can give us the true facts.
I’m not a supporter of their views on the apparition nor do I support sedevacantism.
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grannymh
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I am back home.Thank you
Did you have any additional questions?
Blessings,
granny
*1 Timothy 2: 1-4 *
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