SPLIT: The Eucharist in Scripture and Catholic teaching.

[Linda_Marie]

I see.
What about the Holy Spirit? Does the Catholic Church encourage people to be led by the Spirit?

Together as the Body of Christ - a company of 2 billion souls, more or less - we are led by the Holy Spirit.** There is only one Holy Spirit, so if someone claims to be led by the Holy Spirit in a different direction than the Catholic Church as a whole, then he is either deceived, or he is a deceiver. **

If the spirit tells you something that is different from what the Church teaches, then it is not the Holy Spirit leading you. It is some other spirit, leading you to perdition.

Evil spirits can disguise themselves and are very successful at leading people away from the Truth which comes to us from Jesus, preserved by the Church with the promise of the protection of the Holy Spirit.

None of the myriad protestant/ non-denominational churches have that promise, nor do individuals.

One can conclude that special ultra-holy people are no longer required to serve God.

No, one cannot conclude that.

Without priests, we cannot have the Mass.

Test what is received by what is taught by the Church.

Only the successors of the Apostles have the authority to confect the Eucharist. No others can do so.
All protestant services are just memorials, no matter if they believe in transubstantiation or consubstantiation. They do not have the Body and Blood of Christ because they do not have Apostolic Succession.

Priests have been ordained by the laying on of hands, going back to the Apostles who Jesus Himself ordained at the Last Supper.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Together as the Body of Christ - a company of 2 billion souls, more or less - we are led by the Holy Spirit. There is only one Holy Spirit, so if someone claims to be led by the Holy Spirit in a different direction than the Catholic Church as a whole, then he is either deceived, or he is a deceiver.

The priest who is in charge of your local parish (typically, the priest in charge of the parish church nearest your home) is your pastor, or shepherd. God’s authority over you rests in him.

I’m breaking the rules and responding to a “fresh” comment. I usually resist reading the new comments, feeling I should start with the old ones, but I slipped up and broke my rule.

jm, so the priest is also called “pastor”? Don’t you most commonly refer to him (or her) as “priest”? Incidentally, are there any female priests/pastors?

So if I understand you correctly, the CC does not encourage you to try to hear the Holy Spirit for yourself? You are told that if you follow the authorities that you are following the Holy Spirit through them?

(Thanks to Catholic Answers for allowing me to stray from the main topic. )

 

[jmcrae]

My Catholic step daughter told my wife and me yesterday that her priest said that there will come a time when there won’t be any denominational lines. There won’t be Catholics and Protestants but only Christians. She said that the priest said that Catholics shouldn’t think they are better than Protestants.
I was bit surprised. I said, “That’s good! I’ll have to tell my online Catholic friends about that.”

We already know. Protestantism is fast passing away. Soon, everyone will be Catholic again - or else not Christian at all. Within less than 40 years, the major Protestant denominations have gone from being the most dominant religions in North America to being almost non-existent, due to doctrinal confusion on a grand scale.

Since Evangelicalism is even more confused than Reformed Protestantism ever was, I expect to see them collapse even faster. (Most of them are already describing themselves as “non-denominational” and melting into one another.)

Another unrelated question I have has to do with something I heard a priest say during a Catholic Mass on TV. He said, “Father and Son in the unity of the Holy Spirit.” Is that what the CC teaches?—that it is the Holy Spirit that unifies, or makes one, the Father and Son?

If so, I agree with that.

He probably said, “Through him, with him, and in him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor is yours, almighty Father, for ever and ever.” and then the people replied “Amen.”

It means that the Triune God and the People of God are united together by Christ’s blood on the Cross, through the Holy Spirit.

 

[PRmerger]

She said that the priest said that Catholics shouldn’t think they are better than Protestants

Catholics are no better or worse people than Protestants.*

Catholicism, however, IS better than Protestantism. For it has the fullness of truth.

Although, theoretically speaking, since we have access to grace through the sacraments, we ought* to be holier than Protestants. Whether we are is, sadly, usually, not the case.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

A fair point, Cal.

However, where do you draw the line on whom to believe as being infallible in the area of faith and morals?

You seem to have accepted the infallibility of the Church in one aspect of this: the Church declared for you that the book of Hebrews is inspired and that the Didache is not.

How do you know that they got it right? How is it that you don’t not assign the book of Hebrews the label of apocrypha, as you do the Book of Mormon?

I don’t believe anyone is infallible in the area of faith and morals except the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. (By the way, my computer’s dashboard defines infallible as “incapable of making mistakes or being wrong.” That’s an oversimplifying or overreaching definition of “infallible” as it pertains to the Pope, am I right?)

I believe Hebrews is inspired partly because it has withstood the test of time, and partly because the Holy Spirit impresses on me that it is saturated with the truth of God, and not primarily because the church says so.

I forget what the Didache is. Did someone ache? I couldn’t resist that . I’m not being disrespectful, I just know I can kid around with you.
Seriously, I think someone told me it is an authoritative Catholic book or tradition. I can’t say it’s not inspired or is inspired until I’ve read it.

I do not understand this question of yours: “How is it that you don’t not assign the book of Hebrews the label of apocrypha, as you do the Book of Mormon?”

May you and your children be blessed.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

PRMerger, can I ask in what region or state or country you live? (Just curious.)

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t believe anyone is infallible in the area of faith and morals except the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

So where do you think the man, Mark, erred in his Gospel? And where do you think the man, Paul, erred in his epistles?

(By the way, my computer’s dashboard defines infallible as “incapable of making mistakes or being wrong.” That’s an oversimplifying or overreaching definition of “infallible” as it pertains to the Pope, am I right?)

The pope can make mistakes. He can put salt in his cereal bowl.

He just is prevented from proclaiming as true theologically that which is false. And is prevented from proclaiming that which is false as theologically true.

 

[jmcrae]

I’m breaking the rules and responding to a “fresh” comment. I usually resist reading the new comments, feeling I should start with the old ones, but I slipped up and broke my rule.

I’m glad you did. Now, you can start to see the whole picture, instead of just one pixel at a time.

jm, so the priest is also called “pastor”? Don’t you most commonly refer to him (or her) as “priest”? Incidentally, are there any female priests/pastors?

A priest is anyone who has Holy Orders. My pastor (shepherd) is the priest who presides over my parish church.

A Diocese is the region over which a Bishop presides. For example, I live in the Diocese of Calgary, which extends east and west to the borders of Alberta, south to the American border, and north to Red Deer.

The Diocese is divided into parishes. The parish where I live is bordered by a river to the north, a main highway to the west, a freeway to the south, and a street that is halfway between my parish church and the next parish church over to the east.

At my parish, we have more than one priest, but only one of them is the pastor. We also have priests in residence (they don’t work at our parish) and we have an associate, who works with our pastor.

Women do not become priests. Priests are the living image of Christ, who died for the sin of Adam, which was that he failed to protect his Bride from sin, and in fact went so far as to partake with her in it.

Adam was male, and Christ was male, so our priests are male.

Women have other very important work to do in the Church - religious sisters, nuns, and lay women teach, pray, heal, and do all the little things that keep the Church running smoothly so that priests can celebrate and administer the Sacraments.

So if I understand you correctly, the CC does not encourage you to try to hear the Holy Spirit for yourself? You are told that if you follow the authorities that you are following the Holy Spirit through them?

Actually, the Bible tells me that “There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.” Proverbs 14:12.

It’s easy for individuals to deceive themselves, so God provided us with a Church to guide us.

 

[PRmerger]

PRMerger, can I ask in what region or state or country you live? (Just curious.)

I will answer if you tell me what prompts the question. I’m curious as to why this question occurred to you.

 

[PRmerger]

I believe Hebrews is inspired partly because it has withstood the test of time,

The epistle of Barnabas is still with us today. It has withstood the test of time.

So why don’t you think it’s inspired?

and partly because the Holy Spirit impresses on me that it is saturated with the truth of God, and not primarily because the church says so.

So you have the truth of God before you have the Scriptures?

That is, you know what was taught, and then the Scriptures that conform to what was taught are what you know to be inspired?

I forget what the Didache is. Did someone ache? I couldn’t resist that . I’m not being disrespectful, I just know I can kid around with you.

Heh. It’s pronounced Did-uh-kaye.

And it’s another early Christian text that was considered by the Church but rejected as not being inspired.

Seriously, I think someone told me it is an authoritative Catholic book or tradition.

It is not inspired. The Church said so.

I can’t say it’s not inspired or is inspired until I’ve read it.

You will know it’s inspired based on what? Whether it conforms to what you were taught?

 

[jmcrae]

I do not understand this question of yours: “How is it that you don’t not assign the book of Hebrews the label of apocrypha, as you do the Book of Mormon?”

Because it is of unknown provenance. There is no evidence that it was written by an Apostle, or even that it was written during Apostolic times.

It was one of the disputed books, along with the Book of Revelation, and the Letter of James, and - I forget the whole list - but anyway, some of them made it into the Bible, and others didn’t, simply on the authority of the Roman Catholic Bishops who were making that decision, circa 393-405 AD.

The Didache, which is supposed to be the Teaching of the 12 Apostles, didn’t make it into the Bible, despite having a way better provenance than the Letter to the Hebrews.

Do we throw the whole thing out, then? Or do we simply trust that the Catholic Church is led by the Holy Spirit, and accept the decision they made, even though there is no possible way for us to understand their reasoning?

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

That seems to be a no-brainer. I want to meet Jesus “in person”.

Just like if I had the choice between having my dad “in person” or “in my heart”, I’d choose the former.

You have a different answer perhaps?

I think your point is that you would rather, if you had to make a choice, meet Jesus in the Eucharist than have him in your heart.

If that’s what you’re saying, then it must follow that you believe meeting him in the Eucharist will get you to heaven even if you don’t have his Spirit in your heart. Am I on your track? Am I catching you?

 

[jmcrae]

One can conclude that special ultra-holy people are no longer required to serve God.

Fyodor Dostoyevsky wrote a book that you should read; it’s called Crime and Punishment, and it’s about a young man who believed that he was so ultra-holy that he was no longer required to obey the Commandments of God.

 

[jmcrae]

I think your point is that you would rather, if you had to make a choice, meet Jesus in the Eucharist than have him in your heart.

If that’s what you’re saying, then it must follow that you believe meeting him in the Eucharist will get you to heaven even if you don’t have his Spirit in your heart. Am I on your track? Am I catching you?

Cal, you need to step back and read the whole thread all together. You are the only one making this an “either/or” thing.

Which would you rather do, kiss your wife, or be in love with her?

It’s the same with Jesus in the Eucharist - you can’t have Jesus in the Eucharist, if you don’t love Him. And if you love Him, why wouldn’t you want to meet Him in the Eucharist? (If you love your wife, wouldn’t you want to kiss her?)

 

[PRmerger]

I think your point is that you would rather, if you had to make a choice, meet Jesus in the Eucharist than have him in your heart.

There is no need to create a dichotomy, Cal.

Catholics have both.

Now, the sensible person will see that having someone physically present is eminently more superior than merely having someone in your heart.

So, Cal, I ask you: would you rather have your wife physically present in the room with you, or just in your heart?

 

[IanGE]

If the spirit tells you something that is different from what the Church teaches, then it is not the Holy Spirit leading you. It is some other spirit, leading you to perdition.

Evil spirits can disguise themselves and are very successful at leading people away from the Truth which comes to us from Jesus, preserved by the Church with the promise of the protection of the Holy Spirit.

IF the Holy Spirit is IN you, you will speak in tongues, you will DRIVE OUT EVIL SPIRITS, you will heal others, you will walk among snakes and scorpions of evil and even if you drink poison (or hear poisonous evil teaching) IT WILL NOT HARM YOU. All in the Name of Jesus.
When the 72 disciples were sent out by Jesus they returned, astonished: “even the demons flee at your name!” To this day 1 billion (and counting) born again Christians are astonished at that, too! The evil one is AFRAID of the Holy Spirit: why do Catholics put up so many objections to Holy Spirit activities? Jesus isn’t going to drive you away from HIS church if you ask Him. On the contrary you should be enriching Jesus’ church!

None of the myriad protestant/ non-denominational churches have that promise, nor do individuals.
**As a baby Christian I once asked, “Lord, people claim to be born again but I see some acting in decidedly unChristian ways. How do I know if someone has REEEELLY given his life to you?” He answered, “Ian, if you see someone demonstrating the signs of the believer you will KNOW I have read his heart and have accepted him. Understand also that I have him in the palm of my hand and am guiding him out of error.”
When I see Jesus’ signs accompanying Christians of any denomination, I embrace them as brothers and sisters in Jesus. They are DEMONSTRATING Jesus’ promise. **

No, one cannot conclude that.

Without priests, we cannot have the Mass.

Test what is received by what is taught by the Church.

Only the successors of the Apostles have the authority to confect the Eucharist. No others can do so.
All protestant services are just memorials, no matter if they believe in transubstantiation or consubstantiation. They do not have the Body and Blood of Christ because they do not have Apostolic Succession.

Priests have been ordained by the laying on of hands, going back to the Apostles who Jesus Himself ordained at the Last Supper.

I fear for those the 800 years of BAD popes laid hands on. The dreaded Borgias; the two popes in Avignon and Rome etc. Some 2000 years of Holy Spirit inactivity: perhaps the Chrismatic RENEWAL is because Jesus and the Holy Spirit had to start all over again, this time not just the laying-on of hands, but Jesus reading the HEARTS of people mouthing words. Whatever, who or what is stopping the faithful from accepting the gifts of the Spirit (and the more painful FRUIT of the Spirit, which requires pruning. I said “Lord, it HURTS” He replied, “Ian, it’s called PRUNING!”

 

[IanGE]

Baptism is essential because that is what Jesus said.
Where. please? I mean where in the New Testament, the Word of God? Jesus said “unless you are born again (of water AND the Spirit) you will neither see nor enter the Kingdom of God.” (John 3:3 & 3:5). It sounds to me as if THAT is essential.

We also believe in only one baptism. .

Actually the Creed specifies “one baptism FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS”. When Constantine made Christianity the official religion of Rome all sorts of people came out of the woodwork claiming they were baptised Christians that kept a low profile during the persection. The Christians that went through the persecution, notable Eusebius, claimed that they had reneged on Jesus: a terrible sin. Communion hadn’t been invented back then, Christian belief was that one’s sins were forgiven at baptism. But what about sins committed AFTER baptism? There was talk about a second baptism to forgive later sins. This was one of the issues discussed at Nicea, who decided on “ONE baptism for the forgiveness of sins” Amen. It is also curious that Constantine himself delayed his baptism until he was on his deathbed and passed on the reins: he, too, feared the dodgy acts he was forced to implement as Emperor so delayed his baptismal forgiveness. Note that Constantine was not a baptised Christian when he chaired the Council at Nicea.

 

[IanGE]

Originally Posted by jmcrae
No. She is saying that the manual - the “how to” book - is the Catechism. (Which isn’t strictly accurate, but it’s near enough that I won’t quibble at this point.)

Imagine a factory that is thousands of years old. It has a lot of great stories and history. This is analogous to the Bible and small-t tradition.

You also have a manual that you study to know how to do your job. You don’t learn your job from the stories of old; you learn it from the manual. It tells you how to clean, repair, and operate your machinery. This is analogous to the Catechism, broadly speaking.

The manual isn’t your authority, though - your supervisor is your authority. He’s the one who tells you when it’s time to operate the machine, when it’s time to clean it, and when it’s time to do repairs. The manual contains the instructions for doing these things, but your supervisor lets you know when to do them.

In the Catholic Church, the supervisor is your local pastor. Above him is your local Bishop, and above/beside him is the Pope. It is the living authority to which we look, rather than to dead letters.

Ask those who are Born Again (an essential requirement according to Jesus (John 3)): they will tell you that ABOVE the Pope is Jesus, whose ecclesia (gathering of all those called out") it is. They will also testify that Jesus is alive and well and living in the hearts of all those who believe on HIM and HIM only. And through Jesus and His Father and His Holy Spirit who promised to make their abode with those who loved HIM, Jesus. “All those who love ME, also loves the Father”; "I will not leave you orphans I will send the Holy Spirit who will be your guide, mentor, teacher, counsellor, comforter: the ONLY reliably infallible authority. The billion or so Charismatics (rapidly catching up on the 2 Billion Catholics) will also declare joyfully that, when read through that amazing, indwelling Holy Spirit (who wrote them) those “dead letters” come alive and float off the pages in letters of gold to piece minds, hearts and souls of Christian Believers.
The Charismatics are NOT a closed, privileged club: they all yearn to share Jesus and the Holy Spirit and the loving Father with ALL CREATION: Catholic, non-Catholic, Protestant, Pagan, non-Christian, Atheist. Our wonderful God’s arms are wide spread, yearning to embrace EVERYONE: ALL are His created people and how he longs for them to become His Children through His Son Jesus.
When I was in the Westminster Charismatic Catholic group, we clubbed together to send our Parish Priest (who was decidedly cool towards us clap-happies) to Rome. There he met Mother Teresa, who told him “give Jesus to the People” and he came back firing Charismatic zeal on all cylinders!

 

[PRmerger]

Communion hadn’t been invented back then, Christian belief was that one’s sins were forgiven at baptism.

Actually, Communion was initiated at the Last Supper, centuries before Constantine. It was practiced and enjoyed by the early Christians from Pentecost on.

 

[PRmerger]

Ask those who are Born Again (an essential requirement according to Jesus (John 3)): they will tell you that ABOVE the Pope is Jesus, whose ecclesia (gathering of all those called out") it is.

Yes, this is very Catholic.

But Jesus the Head without a Body is merely a floating head with no way to communicate. The Church is the voice of Jesus. He speaks through His Body.

They will also testify that Jesus is alive and well and living in the hearts of all those who believe on HIM and HIM only

This, too, is very Catholic.

And through Jesus and His Father and His Holy Spirit who promised to make their abode with those who loved HIM, Jesus. “All those who love ME, also loves the Father”; "I will not leave you orphans I will send the Holy Spirit who will be your guide, mentor, teacher, counsellor, comforter: the ONLY reliably infallible authority.

Amen!

And the Holy Spirit speaks through the Body of Christ: the Catholic Church.