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IanGE
Guest
Sorry, senior moment! I meant “confession”.
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IanGE
Guest
Catch 22: Jesus’ church is the body of all Christians, lay or clerical. Luther said, “if the clergy will not work with the Holy Spirit, then the Holy Spirit will work with the laity.” This was while he was a Catholic priest: the Charismatic renewal has demonstrably proved his words. Sadly, the hierarchy are STILL suspicious of the Holy Spirit. Why?Yes, this is very Catholic.
But Jesus the Head without a Body is merely a floating head with no way to communicate. The Church is the voice of Jesus. He speaks through His Body.
**SHEESH! Jesus rose from the dead: the Risen Christ is available to all who put their trust in HIM! And the signs of the believer WILL accompany those, too - a very positive confirmation. Paul says “I wish ALL of you could prophesy. Eagerly seek the higher gifts and do not forbid speaking in tongues.” At Charismatic prayer groups we regularly receive a prophecy, which is Lord communicating with His Children through a person who has given his mind, body, heart, head, voice, his/her ALL to Jesus.
The first time I prophesied it was as if my backside was on fire: I had to stand up on my hind legs and deliver a message to the group. My whole body shook, my heart thumped; blessedly my eldest brother (both blood and Charismatic) put his hand on my arm: “no wonder you feel like that, God has just spoken through you.” “SPOKEN THROUGH ME!” I trembled even more, but he added, "if God can speak through Balaam’s *, why not you?" Then the understanding Charismatic priest leading the music ministry started “Do not be afraid, for I have redeemed you. I have called you by your name: you are Mine!” at which I wept.
This, too, is very Catholic.
Amen!
And the Holy Spirit speaks through the Body of Christ: the Catholic Church.
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IanGE
Guest
Some decades ago an English MP, Enoch Powell, was asked on a religious TV program, “do you believe in the Bible?”. He replied, “I am a member of the communion of the Church of England. If the Church of England tell me I must believe in the Bible, then I will do so.”
Q.2: “Do you believe in Jesus?”
A2. “I am a member of the communion… If they tell me to believe in Jesus, then I will.”
How terribly, terribly, terribly SAD! How many Catholics would duck the issue the same way? I call myself a Christian because I follow Jesus, the Christ, the Messiah, who reached down and picked up a sin-filled alcoholic from his self-soiled earth, stood him erect and gave him back his dignity, self-confidence, freedom, love, joy, peace, patience etc etc. I speak of myself, when others, including religion, had written me off. If I call myself a Catholic it would indicate that I follow the Catholic church and whatever it obliges me to do. My Lord ASKED me to remain in the Catholic church and, along with other Charism-gifted Christians, testify to Him and the Holy Spirit. I’m also only too well aware that I cannot convert that’s the Holy Spirit’s job and even He will not trample over the most stubborn free-will. My job, I guess, is to sow, God makes it grow. And all I can sow is “look guys, this I have seen, this I have heard, this have done in and through and by Jesus’ mighty love.”
Whenever I read in Church I ask the Holy Spirit to take over my mouth and also to open the ears of the congregation. I still tremble when I read Isaiah 6:9 &10:
“Go and tell this people: be ever hearing but never understanding,
be ever seeing but never perceiving.
Make the hearts of this people calloused, make their ears dull and close their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed”
I beg my Lord constantly to revoke that awesome, frightening prophecy. Even Jesus in His time centuries later, often added after something He said, “let those with ears to hear hear.”
I’ve had to give up reading now due to ill-health but I know the Holy Spirit used to answer my pre-reading prayer. People would come up afterwards, “Ian, do you know the whole Bible? Whenever you read its as though a new meaning comes through.” I give the glory by raising my hands to the Lord. I wish I could tell non-Charismatics that the Holy Spirit takes over my lips and larynx and opens the ears of the faithful. Charismatics come up and say, “my word, Ian, that was a Spirit-filled reading. Praise God!”
Q.2: “Do you believe in Jesus?”
A2. “I am a member of the communion… If they tell me to believe in Jesus, then I will.”
How terribly, terribly, terribly SAD! How many Catholics would duck the issue the same way? I call myself a Christian because I follow Jesus, the Christ, the Messiah, who reached down and picked up a sin-filled alcoholic from his self-soiled earth, stood him erect and gave him back his dignity, self-confidence, freedom, love, joy, peace, patience etc etc. I speak of myself, when others, including religion, had written me off. If I call myself a Catholic it would indicate that I follow the Catholic church and whatever it obliges me to do. My Lord ASKED me to remain in the Catholic church and, along with other Charism-gifted Christians, testify to Him and the Holy Spirit. I’m also only too well aware that I cannot convert that’s the Holy Spirit’s job and even He will not trample over the most stubborn free-will. My job, I guess, is to sow, God makes it grow. And all I can sow is “look guys, this I have seen, this I have heard, this have done in and through and by Jesus’ mighty love.”
Whenever I read in Church I ask the Holy Spirit to take over my mouth and also to open the ears of the congregation. I still tremble when I read Isaiah 6:9 &10:
“Go and tell this people: be ever hearing but never understanding,
be ever seeing but never perceiving.
Make the hearts of this people calloused, make their ears dull and close their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed”
I beg my Lord constantly to revoke that awesome, frightening prophecy. Even Jesus in His time centuries later, often added after something He said, “let those with ears to hear hear.”
I’ve had to give up reading now due to ill-health but I know the Holy Spirit used to answer my pre-reading prayer. People would come up afterwards, “Ian, do you know the whole Bible? Whenever you read its as though a new meaning comes through.” I give the glory by raising my hands to the Lord. I wish I could tell non-Charismatics that the Holy Spirit takes over my lips and larynx and opens the ears of the faithful. Charismatics come up and say, “my word, Ian, that was a Spirit-filled reading. Praise God!”
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PRmerger
Guest
Confession also existed centuries before Constantine, Ian. It, too, was instituted by Christ.
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PRmerger
Guest
Amen!
BTW, Ian. Please do not nest your comments inside mine. There is a correct way to quote so that your quotes do not appear inside mine, necessitating your bolding it.
Interesting. A non-sequitur, but interesting nonetheless.
Very Catholic!
Can you offer a quote from the hierarchy that demonstrates this suspicion of the Holy Spirit?
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PRmerger
Guest
Very sad, indeed. :sad_yes:
Um…probably more than 3?
Beautiful!
And you have the Church–the Catholic Church–to thank for this. For you would not know Jesus without the Church.
It was she who gave you the Bible. So you know that Jesus said certain things, and Paul said certain things and Peter said certain things…
And it was she who gave you the sacraments.
And it was she who gave you the Mass.
Religion, Ian, can’t write anyone off. That is an anthropomorphism that is impossible, even theoretically.
Yes. And, if you’re honest, you ought to acknowledge that without the Church you would not know what Jesus proclaimed.
Fabulous!
Yes. And you know this because the Catholic Church proclaimed this for you.
Yes. Another thing that you know because the Catholic Church proclaimed this for you.
Yes. That’s what most folks do. I hear that from my fellow parishioners all the time who are lectors. And I know the priests and deacons do that as well.
Beautiful!
And it was the Catholic Church who told you that these words from Isaiah are the Word of God, right?
Having the Holy Spirit take over when one lectors is not the distinct purview of Charismastics, Ian.
One would think that the Holy Spirit is not that narrow minded.
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franc1sc0
Guest
Brother Cal.
I look forward to Sundays, and one of the main reasons is to receive the body of Christ. I do my best not to sin because I want to receive him. If I do sin I go to confession. In confession I feel ashamed of myself for sinning and for a good while I do not feel the urge or the temptation to sin. I think the act of penance and confessing makes one feel humble and realize that what we do is wrong. The I am good to go with a clear conscience to Mass and receive Christ. These are tools that help me to follow Christ. I need them. Some people believe that they dont need the help, and that they are perfect. I know I am not.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Note though that the Sacraments in the early Church would have been celebrated in a different way, and done differently. Even marriage as we know it today didn’t come until much later in the Church, several centuries later. Although Christians do get married back then and this marriage was recognized by the Church, there was no elaborate Rite around it. In fact, evidence is people didn’t even get married in church. People get married as would be the custom of their time, and if they were Christians then they would have a Christian marriage. Simple as that.
As for confession, again they do not have the “rules” we have today. They sought the counsel of their elders (the presbyters). They had the authority to forgive sins. The whole theology behind it is different than what we have today (in terms of details).
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PRmerger
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Linda_Marie
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- This is heresy. Learn some more about the Catholic Charismatic Renewal before you start carrying on about the Holy Spirit doing nothing for the last 2,000 years and the Church falling into error.
- It is against forum rules to discuss what has been received via private revelation.
- OFF-TOPIC
If you want to discuss the Charismatic Renewal, please start a new thread. Do not derail this one. This one is about the Eucharist in Scripture and Catholic Teaching.
Charismatic Catholics
forums.catholic-questions.org/group.php?groupid=96
Charismatic Christians and Friends
forums.catholic-questions.org/group.php?groupid=93
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IanGE
Guest
I am a septuagenarian, ex-computer designer/lecturer but simply don’t know the correct way to reply
It is the ABSENCE of support for the Jesus/scriptural way to the Father and the Holy Spirit, ie "UNLESS you are Born Again you will not see/enter the Kingdom of God. This forum also radiates not just suspicion but rejection of God’s gifts and fruit to ALL in the ecclesia.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
No, it is not. I mean, it is not completely different, but it is sufficiently different than what we have today. For example, Confession isn’t a strict “if you do this then you must absolutely go to Confession prior to Communion” thing.
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IanGE
Guest
A read of Eusebius’ History of the CHRISTIAN church, written about AD338-ish, reveals that there was NO formula for the forgiveness of sins. Christians believed sins (repented by the sinner - and that doesn’t just mean “sorry” but a whole change of lifestyle) were forgiven at baptism, at which the repentant one accepted Jesus AND His supreme sacrifice for the riddance of sin. People who sinned AFTER baptism were declared blasphemers that rejected Jesus. It wasn’t until two or three centuries later that someone spotted Jesus’ words (John 20:23): “whose sins you shall forgive they are forgiven, whose sins you shall not forgive they are not forgiven.” Note that Jesus said these words AFTER he breathed on the disciples and said “receive ye the Holy Spirit.” At first the church claimed this right to forgive for Bishops only. Only later still was “confession” conferred on all priests.
Every day at Mass, Catholics say "in the words that Jesus taught us, “Our Father, forgive us our trespasses AS we forgive those who trespass against us.” Jesus qualifies this with a terrifying warning in Matthew 6:14/15: “For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive YOUR sins.” He speaks here to ME, to YOU, US. Passing the buck to a priest is not enough!
We are dead lucky Jesus simplified the sin thing. In the OT a sinner had to take a sacrifice to the temple; a turtle dove for a small sin, a perfect white bull for a biggie. The sinner laid hands on the sacrifice to transfer his sins to the animal. The priests then ATE the meat and took on board the sins of the people all year. One day of the year, Yom Kippur, all priests would lay hands on a perfect sacrifice, thereby transferring the tribal sins for the year onto the prize bull. This was then sacrificed and burnt on the altar table behind the holy of holies veil by the High Priest. God himself breathed in the smoke and fumes, thereby taking earthly sins from earth, completing the sin/forgiveness ritual.
There is also the lamb sent out into the wilderness bearing tribal sins, but I don’t know too much about that.
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IanGE
Guest
Sorry, I still don’t know how to quote and reply separately!
CHRISTIANS (those who followed Christ) wrote the New Testament under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The headquarters of the church nestled in Jerusalem, constantly sniped at by Paul, who even had a go a Peter. The Jerusalem church, in turn, weren’t happy with Paul taking Christianity to Greece, Turkey and Rome. Paul’s letters and the synoptic Gospels were dusted and done before the Romans zapped Jerusalem and kicked everybody out. Only the beloved John wrote his Spirit-filled Gospel later, possibly AD90. For the first 45 years of my life the Church held me in thrall to Catechism, dogma and doctrine and kept me ignorant of the Bible, except children’s gospel stories, Mosaic miracles and Jonah in the whale. My Spanish Catholic wife believed it was sinful to read the Bible, until she was Born Again.
Curiously enough it was alcoholics anonymous that led me to Jesus. The third of their 12 steps to recovery is “give yourself to your God.” I didn’t HAVE a god, there was only Jesus, and that hour changed my entire life. Prior to that I never even read the Old Testament, never understood the sheer Majesty of God speaking through a prophet until I prophesied myself and vibrated with others who also did.
Religion makes dogmatic rules condemn people who don’t agree. I myself grovelled in condemnation because I never went to mass for 21 years and, according to Church, was steeped in Mortal Sins. Jesus says (Luke 6:37): “Do not condemn and you will not be condemned.”
I would hardly think the Holy Spirit is narrow-minded: that one breath of God (pneuma agios) powered ALL humans from Adam to the baby born one minute ago.
But there ARE Spiritual rules: a person MUST surrender his/her God-given free will to Jesus, declaring full trust and love for HIM before the triune God will come and make their abode with him. No good sitting on the fence. Paul’s test of the Spirit (1 Cor. 12:3): “No one can say JESUS IS LORD except by the Holy Spirit.” When we were baby Christians we used tp play that stupid game: “can you say Jesus is Lord”. It was surprising how many Christians, Catholics, Prots simply refused to say it. “Why do you want me to say that: I can say it anytime I like.” Only my non-Chrismatic Catholic brother replied, “what sort of stupid test is that: I can say “Jesus is Lord” anytime I like.” Then realised and laughed his head off!
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thesmiter1
Guest
But the THEOLOGY is the same. Even Paul speaks of examining oneself before receiving the Eucharist. The Didache advises to confess one’s sins, as well. Assuredly, the more minute aspects of the theology were being developed (which sins were grave and required confession), but confession as an institution has been since the beginning.
The faith we have been given is revealed more fully everyday, but we always learn MORE. None is ever taken away, and false doctrine is never declared true.
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thesmiter1
Guest
“Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure” (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).
This is from the Didache, from around 70 AD. How much earlier do you want to go?
How about some Barnabas:
“You shall judge righteously. You shall not make a schism, but you shall pacify those that contend by bringing them together. You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light” (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).
Or would some Ignatius be helpful:
“For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ” (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110]).
“For where there is division and wrath, God does not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to the unity of God, and to communion with the bishop” (ibid., 8).
You would benefit greatly from actually learning what the early Church teaches, rather than what you selectively wish it taught.
Let me ask you something (and all non-Catholic Christians): Do you really, truly believe that Christ would leave the operation of His Church to the individual interpretation of every man who became Christian? If so, then why are there so many different Christian belief systems? And why, before Luther, was there only one, holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church (the Orthodox are schismatic, and adhere to the dogma of the Church, but refuse to acknowledge the Roman Bishop as the pastoral head of the Church).
Can you answer me? Can you explain why the Church Fathers and the earliest Catechism are so blatantly obvious about sacraments? Can you explain why the Catholic Church has existed firmly for so long, while non-Catholic Christians have already split into about 30,000 denominations? EXPLAIN THIS TO ME.
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adrift
Guest
So the answer would be that you have no evidence but merely bearing false witness?I am a septuagenarian, ex-computer designer/lecturer but simply don’t know the correct way to reply
It is the ABSENCE of support for the Jesus/scriptural way to the Father and the Holy Spirit, ie "UNLESS you are Born Again you will not see/enter the Kingdom of God. This forum also radiates not just suspicion but rejection of God’s gifts and fruit to ALL in the ecclesia.
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adrift
Guest
Just how did the Church keep you ignorant? Did you not attent Mass in those 45 years? If you were at Mass, did you not listen to the Liturgy of the Word? If you did, than how can you be ignorant of the Bible. Don’t blame the Church look into the mirror. What does your wife’s ignorant view have to do with it?
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PRmerger
Guest
Check out these threads which explain it:I am a septuagenarian, ex-computer designer/lecturer but simply don’t know the correct way to reply
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=573270&highlight=quote+feature
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=6675&highlight=quote+feature
Anyone who is Catholic is Born Again, Ian, when he is baptized.
That’s a judgement call that’s above your pay grade I’m afraid. You don’t have the capacity to know who’s rejecting God’s gifts and who’s not.
You ought not be judging others here.
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PRmerger
Guest
The theology is the same. The application may be different.
The Catholic faith was whole and entire, given once for all to the saints, from the first century onwards. While the fullness of our theology existed from the very beginning, our practice of it developed as the need arose
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