SPLIT: The Eucharist in Scripture and Catholic teaching.

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wheels10 said:
Do you believe in transubstantiation? ie. the bread becomes the Body of Christ and the wine becomes the Blood of Christ?
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Since my first Communion when I was six, I have been drawn to the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. At His last supper, Jesus gave us the most precious gift of His presence saying “This IS my body. This IS my blood. Do this in memory of Me.” And He passed this gift along to His apostles at His last meal, to be lead by renaming Peter, meaning Rock, and “upon this Rock I will build My church.” The gift of Jesus real presence in the Eucharist, transubstantiation by the words of our priests, is GOD’s power and GOD’s choice, not the priests as atheists and other churches believe. Therefore we need only believe in the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, uniquely as Catholics passed down by Peter, to daily bring our Love within, to strengthen us with His presence, to comfort us personally, to help us to become Christ’s presence to our struggling world. I would not have survived the struggles and pains of my childhood and brain cancer treatments without the presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. He is my strength, my courage, my joy, my best friend that loves me no matter where I am. He encourages us in receiving Him in the Eucharist, to be His presence in our suffering world. We learn that with His power alone, WE are His hands, His feet, His visual presence to this struggling world. And with the gift of His presence in the Eucharist, our lives share in the love of God for His created people where ever we go.
 
diane_therese_s said:
Since my first Communion when I was six, I have been drawn to the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. At His last supper, Jesus gave us the most precious gift of His presence saying “This IS my body. This IS my blood. Do this in memory of Me.” And He passed this gift along to His apostles at His last meal, to be lead by renaming Peter, meaning Rock, and “upon this Rock I will build My church.” The gift of Jesus real presence in the Eucharist, transubstantiation by the words of our priests, is GOD’s power and GOD’s choice, not the priests as atheists and other churches believe. Therefore we need only believe in the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, uniquely as Catholics passed down by Peter, to daily bring our Love within, to strengthen us with His presence, to comfort us personally, to help us to become Christ’s presence to our struggling world. I would not have survived the struggles and pains of my childhood and brain cancer treatments without the presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. He is my strength, my courage, my joy, my best friend that loves me no matter where I am. He encourages us in receiving Him in the Eucharist, to be His presence in our suffering world. We learn that with His power alone, WE are His hands, His feet, His visual presence to this struggling world. And with the gift of His presence in the Eucharist, our lives share in the love of God for His created people where ever we go.
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Thank you for sharing your experiences and your faith. 🙂 God Bless. :gopray:
 
I hope the authorities will allow me to step off topic briefly—to purgatory.

I’m reading a wonderful book by Richard Sigmund titled My Time in Heaven. A True Story of Dying and Coming Back.
At one point during his time in heaven he was taken to an amphitheater where he could look out over all of heaven. He said it was breathtaking. Everyone sat in complete, silent adoration of God. He was told to be silent, as none may speak there. He was told this was where all the cares that people had on earth are cleansed away.

This made me think of what Linda Marie said—that purgatory is where we are prepared to meet our Maker.

Maybe purgatory is a real place after all!
Thanks, LovetoSew, for your encouragement!
 
Cal,

I have to admit I was thinking about this and a thought came to me, maybe part of purgatory is where our memories are erased and we only remember our family,

because if we went to heaven with all the bad memories and memories of things on earth we have we would never be able to be in real peace, if you know what I mean.🙂
 
Hi Linda!

Last Sunday before Communion in my church, my pastor prayed that we would not just be eating physical food, but that we would receive spiritually as well. (I never noticed him praying that before. Maybe I’m noticing things because I’m thinking about the Eucharist more than usual.) In any case, my pastor’s prayer shows that Protestants can and do expect something spiritual to happen during the Lord’s Supper.​

I also thought about Communion when reading the first part of Romans chapter 6 recently, though I had never done so before. It says “we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death” (6:3, NAB).
Since I didn’t know what “baptism into Christ’s death” meant, I studied the context, consulted some commentaries, and of course prayed.
One biblical dictionary says the word baptism refers to a process involving immersion, submersion, and emergence (from the Greek word bapto, which means “to dip”).
The context makes clear that to be dipped into Christ’s death is to be “united with him” (verse 5) in death.

What’s that mean? Our old self was crucified so that the sinful body might be destroyed and we might be slaves to sin no longer (verse 6).

Now, I’m going to try to put this in my own words. (I feel like I don’t understand something if I can’t explain it in my own words.) As Christians, we die (say goodbye) to the power of sin and hello to a new life in Christ. In this new life we can and do overcome sin by the power of the Spirit. We live where God reigns, no longer where Satan reigns.

SO, perhaps what I just said is another way to express what Communion points to! The bread, representing the body Jesus gave up for us, and the wine, representing his blood poured out for us, are taken into our bodies. This represents my share in (baptism into, unity with) Christ’s death: Because Jesus died for me, I die to the old self and live in the new self, created in his image!

If I don’t watch out, I’m going to get excited. :dancing:
Linda_Marie said:
The bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit. They do not become the Holy Spirit, the 3rd Person of the Trinity, nor is the Holy Spirit ‘in’ the Eucharist. The Eucharist is Jesus, the 2nd Person of the Trinity, even though the appearance of bread and wine has not changed.
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That’s what I find confusing.
To help you understand where I’m coming from (I’m talking to anyone listening, not just Linda), suppose I said to you, “When my pastor lays his hands on my son, he becomes my daughter.”
You might say, “What?!.”
Then I would repeat myself.
You might then say, “You mean you no longer have a son?”
“No. My son still exists. My son is the accident.”
“Don’t you mean the spirit of your son enters your daughter?”
“No, my son actually becomes my daughter.”
Then you are :confused:
 
Cal_Fullerton said:
Hi Linda!

Last Sunday before Communion in my church, my pastor prayed that we would not just be eating physical food, but that we would receive spiritually as well. (I never noticed him praying that before. Maybe I’m noticing things because I’m thinking about the Eucharist more than usual.) In any case, my pastor’s prayer shows that Protestants can and do expect something spiritual to happen during the Lord’s Supper.​

I also thought about Communion when reading the first part of Romans chapter 6 recently, though I had never done so before. It says “we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death” (6:3, NAB).
Since I didn’t know what “baptism into Christ’s death” meant, I studied the context, consulted some commentaries, and of course prayed.
One biblical dictionary says the word baptism refers to a process involving immersion, submersion, and emergence (from the Greek word bapto, which means “to dip”).
The context makes clear that to be dipped into Christ’s death is to be “united with him” (verse 5) in death.

What’s that mean? Our old self was crucified so that the sinful body might be destroyed and we might be slaves to sin no longer (verse 6).

Now, I’m going to try to put this in my own words. (I feel like I don’t understand something if I can’t explain it in my own words.) As Christians, we die (say goodbye) to the power of sin and hello to a new life in Christ. In this new life we can and do overcome sin by the power of the Spirit. We live where God reigns, no longer where Satan reigns.

SO, perhaps what I just said is another way to express what Communion points to! The bread, representing the body Jesus gave up for us, and the wine, representing his blood poured out for us, are taken into our bodies. This represents my share in (baptism into, unity with) Christ’s death: Because Jesus died for me, I die to the old self and live in the new self, created in his image!

If I don’t watch out, I’m going to get excited. :dancing:

That’s what I find confusing.
To help you understand where I’m coming from (I’m talking to anyone listening, not just Linda), suppose I said to you, “When my pastor lays his hands on my son, he becomes my daughter.”
You might say, “What?!.”
Then I would repeat myself.
You might then say, “You mean you no longer have a son?”
“No. My son still exists. My son is the accident.”
“Don’t you mean the spirit of your son enters your daughter?”
“No, my son actually becomes my daughter.”
Then you are :confused:
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Cal,
I so think a lot like you, great post.😉
 
labarrios said:
If I do all these things * without the intent of love in my heart just for entrance into heaven, I’m never gonna get there.*

OK, that’s good . . . it’s good if by love you mean the love of God which is contained in his Spirit, not any kind of natural love that we were born with when we left our mother’s womb.
labarrios;8832217:
So that true desire and love needs to be there before one dies. Hey but practice makes perfect:) Will I make it there? Of course I want to be with God when I die, and only he knows my heart. I pray that I die in the state of Grace. I love God! He has saved me. He is saving me now, by showing me the worldly things I hold onto that keep me from him. . . .
I pray that His Spirit grows ever more inside of me, and inspires me to make the right choices that lead me to Him, and He saves me once again.

Dios te Bendiga
:blessyou:
labarrios​

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Fantastic, my friend. 🙂
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Cal_Fullerton said:
That’s what I find confusing.
To help you understand where I’m coming from (I’m talking to anyone listening, not just Linda), suppose I said to you, “When my pastor lays his hands on my son, he becomes my daughter.”
You might say, “What?!.”
Then I would repeat myself.
You might then say, “You mean you no longer have a son?”
“No. My son still exists. My son is the accident.”
“Don’t you mean the spirit of your son enters your daughter?”
“No, my son actually becomes my daughter.”
Then you are :confused:
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You’re still missing a step. I don’t know if you’re reading ahead to all of the responses you’ve received, but I think we’ve tried to explain this already.

The substance of the bread and wine no longer exist after the Consecration - only their appearances. Jesus fully and perfectly displaces the bread and wine with His Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity.

Just as rock fully displaces the material accidents of ancient sea creatures to make fossils. The rock “looks like” the ancient sea creatures, but it is actually rock.

The same thing happens to the bread and wine at the spiritual level. The “spirit” (the philosophical substance - the “what-ness”) is exchanged for that of Christ.

In the example of the son and daughter, the son would no longer exist - the daughter would have the outward appearance of a son. (Such a thing would be abominable in real life, of course, since it would result in the non-existence of a human person, but I am simply working with your analogy.)
 
jmcrae said:
He [a bad pope] could not - no more than Richard Nixon could cause the United States of America to cease to exist by means of his actions, or take away the authority of the Presidency. Barak Obama has exactly the same authority today that George Washington had when he was first elected - no more and no less, regardless of what Richard Nixon or any other President ever did.

It is the same with the Church, and the Papacy. Neither of them ceases to exist on the basis of anyone’s wrong-doing or abuse of authority. 🙂
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I understand.

I don’t agree exactly with your definition of church, but that’s another topic. Maybe when we get done with the Eucharist, we could go there?

Have a nice day, jm.
 
jmcrae said:
So - priests, Bishops, Cardinals, and Popes could potentially get it right, as well, right? (Especially considering that they spend their entire lives studying not only the Bible but also everything else that was left to us by the Apostles, as well.) 😉
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So I gather that the Pope isn’t the only one with authority to interpret the Bible? What if they ever disagree with each other?

I’m glad they spend their lives studying the Bible. It’s appropriate I think. 😃

Yeah, I think they get some important things right, including the one that says we must become a follower of Jesus to get to heaven. 🙂
 
I’ll have to stop at comment #357. Watch out, I’m catching up!

Love to all.:clapping:
 
Cal_Fullerton said:
So I gather that the Pope isn’t the only one with authority to interpret the Bible?
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We all MUST interpret the Bible, Cal.

We simply must interpret it, though, the way that God revealed it. Thus, if someone reads the Scriptures and comes to the conclusion that Jesus was NOT DIVINE, then he is not free to go with this interpretation. You agree with this prohibition too, right?
What if they ever disagree with each other?
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It depends. Let’s say a Pope is planning a Vatican dinner and is worried that there’s not going to be enough food. He takes ten minutes to meditate on Scriptures and comes face to face with the story of the Multiplication of the Loaves. He is heartened and believes that God is telling him “stop worrying, Benedict! There will be plenty of food!” He sends a text to his chef not to worry!

His later predecessor reads this text and says, “Benedict was wrong about that. I heard that the chief steward did not get dessert!”

Well, they can certainly disagree about that particular interpretation of the Multiplication of the Loaves! 🙂
 
Cal_Fullerton said:
Hi Linda!

Last Sunday before Communion in my church, my pastor prayed that we would not just be eating physical food, but that we would receive spiritually as well. (I never noticed him praying that before. Maybe I’m noticing things because I’m thinking about the Eucharist more than usual.) In any case, my pastor’s prayer shows that Protestants can and do expect something spiritual to happen during the Lord’s Supper.​

I also thought about Communion when reading the first part of Romans chapter 6 recently, though I had never done so before. It says “we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death” (6:3, NAB).
Since I didn’t know what “baptism into Christ’s death” meant, I studied the context, consulted some commentaries, and of course prayed.
One biblical dictionary says the word baptism refers to a process involving immersion, submersion, and emergence (from the Greek word bapto, which means “to dip”).
The context makes clear that to be dipped into Christ’s death is to be “united with him” (verse 5) in death.

What’s that mean? Our old self was crucified so that the sinful body might be destroyed and we might be slaves to sin no longer (verse 6).

Now, I’m going to try to put this in my own words. (I feel like I don’t understand something if I can’t explain it in my own words.) As Christians, we die (say goodbye) to the power of sin and hello to a new life in Christ. In this new life we can and do overcome sin by the power of the Spirit. We live where God reigns, no longer where Satan reigns.

SO, perhaps what I just said is another way to express what Communion points to! The bread, representing the body Jesus gave up for us, and the wine, representing his blood poured out for us, are taken into our bodies. This represents my share in (baptism into, unity with) Christ’s death: Because Jesus died for me, I die to the old self and live in the new self, created in his image!

If I don’t watch out, I’m going to get excited. :dancing:

That’s what I find confusing.
To help you understand where I’m coming from (I’m talking to anyone listening, not just Linda), suppose I said to you, “When my pastor lays his hands on my son, he becomes my daughter.”
You might say, “What?!.”
Then I would repeat myself.
You might then say, “You mean you no longer have a son?”
“No. My son still exists. My son is the accident.”
“Don’t you mean the spirit of your son enters your daughter?”
“No, my son actually becomes my daughter.”
Then you are :confused:
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Hi Cal, good to see you back. I’ve been including you in my nightly prayers that you might understand this Mystery. Of course, it is a Mystery, capital M. Our human understanding will never fully understand how this happens. For me, it is Jesus’s words. God said “Let there be light.” and there was light. God said, “This is my body.” so it is His Body, even though those eating the Last Supper with Jesus only saw and tasted bread and wine.

The terms, substance and accidents, are used to try to explain what happens but they remain an imperfect explanation.

You can only accept this by faith. That is what Jesus meant in John 6. He was reiterating that what He had said was the truth, you must eat His Body and drink His Blood if you want eternal life.

You must accept His words with faith, the spirit, not with human understanding, the flesh.

Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?” Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, "Does this shock you? What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?* It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.** But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him. And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.” As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him. Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?” Simon Peter answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.”*

Which words were these?
*Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. *

You accept that Jesus rose from the dead by faith. Do you understand how He rose? By what mechanism his dead, tortured, exsanguinated body came back to life? Do you need to understand it to accept it, to believe it?
 
Cal_Fullerton said:
I understand.

I don’t agree exactly with your definition of church, but that’s another topic. Maybe when we get done with the Eucharist, we could go there?

Have a nice day, jm.
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It seems clear that Jesus had intended to establish a Kingdom on earth in continuity with the Kingdom of David, and that He appointed His Apostles to be its first leaders.
 
I know this is off-topic but in light of recent news stories, I’m real curious. Does the Catholic Church discourage the use of birth control? If so, why?

Thanks. 🙂
 
Cal_Fullerton said:
I know this is off-topic but in light of recent news stories, I’m real curious. Does the Catholic Church discourage the use of birth control? If so, why?

Thanks. 🙂
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Artificial forms of birth control are forbidden, because they put the control of life and death into human hands, instead of leaving them in God’s hands where they belong. (It can be appropriate to abstain from sex for a period of time, if a married couple has a serious reason - however, this is not directly grabbing control of life and death out of the hands of God, but simply abstaining from the ordinary means of life for a period of time.)

We must trust that God will never create any human being by accident, and that no one can come into existence without God first purposely and individually granting them a soul - all of us are here by and for God’s purpose. No one is “an accident,” even if their conception was a surprise to their parents - all children are God’s children.
 
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