SPLIT: The Eucharist in Scripture and Catholic teaching.

[Luvtosew]

I listen to Mother Angelica on EWTN sometimes. I wonder, do any of you ever enjoy listening to her?

Yep shes great , she just had a birthday, I think 89, they said shes doing pretty good. God Bless her.

 

[Luvtosew]

The sacrifice of thanksgiving that is offered by the priest is the bread and the wine (unbloody). This is a really clumsy way of explaining it, but the way I understand it is, roughly speaking, Jesus essentially replaces the bread and the wine on the Altar with Himself - in Eucharistic Prayer #1, which is the one that comes down to us from Apostolic times, the language is very clear that the Angels transfer the essential substances of the bread and wine into Heaven while Jesus is descending on to the Altar and replaces their substances with His own, which is the flesh that was sacrificed for our sins on the Cross, once and for all - which is what we then consume in Holy Communion.

A Catholic priest does not actually sacrifice Jesus on the Altar - Jesus already did that on the Cross. What the Catholic priest sacrifices is the bread and the wine - which then gets “traded” if you will for the body and blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ at the moment of the Consecration.

Well then thats what I always thought, the Priest is offering our sacrifice of bread and wine to God, and blessing it at the same time, and our sacrifices are our offering of praise and thanksgiving and oursefls. Some people here tell me it Jesus Christ that is sacrifice witch I don’t get as he already sacrificed himself for us, so to offer him again doesn’t make sense.
Its so easy to get wrong ideas on the message boards.

 

[Linda_Marie]

Wow, Australia! It’s neat to talk to someone from the other side of the globe.

If you haven’t done what he wanted of you in the past—and who of us always has?—then all we have to do is say “I’m sorry,” and do what he wants us to do right now. Then the past is gone, God has forgiven it, it is all “under the blood,” as we like to say in the charismatic movement. Corrie Ten Boom, who suffered greatly during the Holocaust, said once that our sins are cast into a sea of forgetfulness, and God put up sign saying “NO FISHING”!

If you worry that you are not doing what he wants of you now, it could be the Accuser (the devil) lying to you. Or it might be the conviction of the Holy Spirit, in which case you can ask God what specifically it is that he wants you do to. When he tells you, ask him to give you strength and desire to do it; then do it! Everything will work out for the best in the long run. He knows what he’s doing and he loves you with an undying, unwavering love.

Thank you for that and God bless you.

It sounds like the Eucharist is a great blessing to you. I wonder why Catholics seem to stress the Jesus in the Eucharist rather than the Jesus that comes into their hearts through the Eucharist?

There is only one Jesus. He is not ‘in’ the Eucharist. The Eucharist IS Jesus. Words are just so inadequate to express this Mystery. I guess I just am not quite understanding your differentiation (‘in’ or ‘through’).

The reception of the Eucharist, the actual Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus, is far superior to a spiritual communion, spiritually speaking. It is the actual joining of our bodies, our flesh, His and ours, so that our fallen flesh may be raised with His Risen Flesh, bringing us to eternal life.

As we say in one of the Mysteries of Faith:

Dying, you destroyed our death;
Rising, you restored our life.
Lord Jesus, come in glory.

and one of the prayers the priest prays during consecration:

May we come to share in the divinity of Christ, as He humbled Himself to share in our humanity.

If we do not share in His Risen Flesh, we do not share in His Life, His Resurrection.

We hope and pray that those who are unaware of this may be saved through the mercy of God, but we know only this way, the way He has taught us.

*Then the Jews started arguing with one another: “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” they said. Jesus replied:

“I tell you most solemnly,
if you do not eat the flesh of the Son of Man
and drink his blood,
you will not have life in you.*
Anyone who does eat my flesh and drink my blood
has eternal life,
and I shall raise him up on the last day.
For my flesh is real food
and my blood is real drink.
He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood
lives in me
and I live in him.
As I, who am sent by the living Father,
myself draw life from the Father,
so whoever eats me will draw life from me.
This is the bread come down from heaven;
not like the bread our ancestors ate:
they are dead,
but anyone who eats this bread will live for ever.”

Words on the Holy Eucharist

 

[PeterJohn]

John 6:54 “He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day”

I’ve heard it explained to non-believers before as a metafore like this:
“Jesus Christ is God, and He is Immortal. We humans are mortal, and he gives us his flesh to eat so that we may have eternal life within him like a mother gives milk for her child to live, a perfect food for the child”. The mother feeds her child out of love with her body. (Body and soul) just like Christ feeds us, Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity.

Jesus loves us with all that he is, and he nurtures us with all the he is with his body blood soul and divinity by means of his divinely instituted sacrificial meal of eternal life.
It is what a Jew would know as a thank offering or a “Todah” , a sacrificial offering given in thanks. Luke 22:19 Also Genesis 14;18

T&T Clark hosts a bunch of early church father teachings in a 38 volume work that you can find references to true presence.

As for the word Transubstantiation, although that particular words are not found early on, the idea of after the priest, speaking the words of consecration the holy species is then body and blood, soul and divinity of Christ transformed, is as old as when the apostles first taught it no doubt.

 

[PeterJohn]

Romans 8:17 states that in order to be heirs, we must share in Christ’s suffering
His suffering on the cross? His sacrifice, the sacrifice he made for the sake of our eternal life?? That sounds like Paul may have been talking about the blood shed for our sins, aka Luke 22:20. The todah.

 

[jmcrae]

It sounds like the Eucharist is a great blessing to you. I wonder why Catholics seem to stress the Jesus in the Eucharist rather than the Jesus that comes into their hearts through the Eucharist?

Jesus is always Jesus. There is no difference. You should not be focused on your own emotions about Jesus, but on Jesus who is always with you, regardless of how you happen to feel at any given time. When Jesus is with us in the Eucharist, it doesn’t matter what we feel like - we are in His bodily presence, and it is an awesome thing.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

. . . When Jesus is with us in the Eucharist, it doesn’t matter what we feel like - we are in His bodily presence, and it is an awesome thing.

For me, it’s important to be part of the same organization that Jesus actually established - not because I think other people are going to go to Hell, but because for me, that unbroken line of continuity between Him and me is one more important relationship that I have with Him - it allows me to be related to Him “by blood” and not merely by friendship. (Although a personal relationship with Him in friendship is also very important to me, as well - don’t get me wrong.)

I’m glad you have a personal relationship with Jesus and that it’s important to you, jm.
But, again, I’m confused. Does His bodily presence and your relation to Him “by blood,” as you call it, have any practical and beneficial effect on your relationship with him? If so, what is it?

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

The end and purpose of our relationship with Jesus is union with Jesus. Yes, the side effects are that we are better people - more honest workers, more loving people - because we are no longer self-concerned - we know that in Jesus, nothing can harm us, so we are free to take the risks of love and honesty.

That’s good. I like the way you said that. It sounds like my relationship with Him as well.

But those are not the reasons for our relationship with Jesus. Jesus is our goal - not work or human relationships. And sometimes, in order to emphasize the point, He will take those things away from us temporarily (as He did with Job) to ensure that we remember what we were created for.

I hope that helps you.

I’m cool with it.

 

[jmcrae]

I’m glad you have a personal relationship with Jesus and that it’s important to you, jm.
But, again, I’m confused. Does His bodily presence and your relation to Him “by blood,” as you call it, have any practical and beneficial effect on your relationship with him? If so, what is it?

It’s the difference between the relationship I have with my brother (permanent, lifelong, and unbreakable, since it is a relationship of blood - even if we get angry with each other or don’t speak for many years, we will always be of the same blood, and required to take care of each other no matter what happens), and the relationship i have with my best friend (which can be broken with angry words or long silences, being as there is no tie of blood or kinship there).

Once you are blood kin to Jesus by means of the Eucharist, there is no going back. Nothing can ever stop you.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

As you know, the Our Father (The Lord’s Prayer) which we use is a translation.
Give us this day our daily bread.
There is no equivalent word in English or Latin for the Greek epiousion, which is translated as ‘daily’.

. . . . So we see that in the prayer the Lord taught us, we are not just asking for food for the nourishment of our bodies, we also ask to receive the Eucharist every day, to nourish our souls.

“Father, give us this day our daily bread”

Among the Protestants I have been hanging with for 29 years, the daily bread is thought to be either physical food, or the Holy Spirit (Christ in us), or both.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

What I have come to understand about the Eucharist within the Roman Communion is that Christ’s whole body, blood, soul and divinity are in the bread and wine, and the bread and wine become the actual body and blood of Christ. The appearance remains as bread and wine, but the substance has changed. Also, if I am correct, it is the glorified body of Christ that is offered and present during the Eucharist. It is not a doctrine I agree with, and I have not seen it taught or practiced as explicitily within the Ante-Nicene Chruch as do most Roman Catholics. Blessings

Thanks for your contribution, SWR11.
I don’t know what you mean by “the Ante-Nicene Church.” Is that equivalent to the Protestant church?

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

I’m still RC but I never held the opinion of tranbs the way I find so many are describing it lately till I came on these sites. I also see its a sacrifice.

I never understand how they say its the body and blood and then offer it as an unbloody sacrifice, so one minute it contains the blood when its consecrated then offered back up the Father as an unbloody sacrifice, doesn’t make sense.

No ones been able to explain that one to me.

Thanks for your honesty. I feel a little better now. I bet many Roman Catholics feel the way you do.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

There is only one Jesus. He is not ‘in’ the Eucharist. The Eucharist IS Jesus. Words are just so inadequate to express this Mystery. I guess I just am not quite understanding your differentiation (‘in’ or ‘through’).

Maybe I’ve been misusing the word Eucharist. Are you saying the Eucharist is the bread and the wine? I have been using the word to mean the whole ritual, including the priest’s consecration of the bread and wine, and his giving to each person some bread and his giving to each person a taste of the wine.

If Eucharist is a word for the bread and wine after they become the body and blood of Christ, what word do you use to describe the whole ritual?

To explain my differentiation between the body of Christ and the Holy Spirit, who is Christ, let me use 2 Corinthians 3:17. (Keep in mind, I’m not talking about the Eucharist now.) It says (in the NAB version), “The Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.”

That verse (2 Cor. 3:17) shows that when Scripture refers to the Lord or to Christ, it very often is referring to the Spirit, that is, the Spirit that lives in the hearts of every follower of Jesus, and the Spirit that causes us to experience freedom—from depression, discouragement, jealousy, envy, anger, lust, and all other kinds of sin.

When I referred to the body of Christ, I meant the resurrected body that doubting Thomas touched and that has scars on it from the crucifixion. (I do realize that the phase “body of Christ” doesn’t always refer in Scripture to Jesus’ tangible, resurrected body.)

You said the Eucharist is one of the Mysteries of Faith.

I believe the mysteries of the gospel are revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. They are mysteries (secrets) to the unconverted, but are revealed to those who have converted to the life of following Jesus. . . . I must hasten to add that most Christians, including me, have a fuzzy understanding of gospel principles (mysteries) because we aren’t totally full of the brightness of God yet.

God bless you, Linda Marie. Have a great day walking in his freedom!

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

When Jesus is with us in the Eucharist, it doesn’t matter what we feel like - we are in His bodily presence, and it is an awesome thing.

How can you say it’s awesome when you don’t feel anything? I’m trying to be as respectful as I know how, but it sounds like you are imagining something that’s not real.

Jesus is always with me in spirit even though I have never eaten the consecrated bread or drunk the wine of Catholic Eucharist—I take that back—there have been times I have visited a Catholic church and partaken of the bread and wine, but that’s not how I received His eternal life. I received His eternal life the moment I surrendered my life to Him.

Sometimes Protestants actually have a vision of Jesus or see him in a completely real way. Often these are very dramatic events.

I had a vision of Jesus once but He was vague, not exactly his real size, and the vision was not earth-shattering to me. I’d say more but . . .

I’m tired. I must retire.

Take care, my buddy.

 

[adrift]

Maybe I’ve been misusing the word Eucharist. Are you saying the Eucharist is the bread and the wine?

EUCHARISTThe true Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, who is really and substantially present under the appearances of bread and wine, in order to offer himself in the sacrifice of the Mass and to be received as spiritual food in Holy Communion. It is called Eucharist, or “thanksgiving,” because at its institution at the Last Supper Christ “gave thanks,” and by this fact it is the supreme object and act of Christian gratitude to God.

Although the same name is used, the Eucharist is any one or all three aspects of one mystery, namely the Real Presence, the Sacrifice, and Communion. As Real Presence, the Eucharist is Christ in his abiding existence on earth today; as Sacrifice, it is Christ in his abiding action of High Priest, continuing now to communicate the graces he merited on Calvary; and as Communion, it is Christ coming to enlighten and strengthen the believer by nourishing his soul for eternal life. (Etym. Latin Eucharist, the virtue of thanksgiving or thankfulness; from Greek eucharistia, gratitude; from eu-, good + charizesthai, to show favor.)

I have been using the word to mean the whole ritual, including the priest’s consecration of the bread and wine, and his giving to each person some bread and his giving to each person a taste of the wine.

I find the way you have phrased this to be insulting. I do not believe you meant it to be but the priest does not give some bread and a taste of wine. The priest gives us Jesus’ Body and Blood. Please be more respectful. I know you do not believe but you know that Catholics do.

If Eucharist is a word for the bread and wine after they become the body and blood of Christ, what word do you use to describe the whole ritual?

The Eucharistic Prayer.

When I referred to the body of Christ, I meant the resurrected body that doubting Thomas touched and that has scars on it from the crucifixion. (I do realize that the phase “body of Christ” doesn’t always refer in Scripture to Jesus’ tangible, resurrected body.)

I am not sure if you are aware but when we speak of receiving the Body and Blood of Jesus that we are referring to the resurrected Glorified Jesus.

You said the Eucharist is one of the Mysteries of Faith.

I believe the mysteries of the gospel are revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. They are mysteries (secrets) to the unconverted, but are revealed to those who have converted to the life of following Jesus. . . . I must hasten to add that most Christians, including me, have a fuzzy understanding of gospel principles (mysteries) because we aren’t totally full of the brightness of God yet.

This sounds agnostic to me.

Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

I don’t believe that God can be totally understood because we have such an inferior intellect. I think here we might have a problem of definition. What your understanding of a mystery is and what I believe it is.

MYSTERY
A divinely revealed truth whose very possibility cannot be rationally conceived before it is revealed and, after revelation, whose inner essence cannot be fully understood by the finite mind. The incomprehensibility of revealed mysteries derives from the fact that they are manifestations of God, who is infinite and therefore beyond the complete grasp of a created intellect. Nevertheless, though incomprehensible, mysteries are intelligible. One of the primary duties of a believer is, through prayer, study, and experience, to grow in faith, i.e., to develop an understanding of what God has revealed

That verse (2 Cor. 3:17) shows that when Scripture refers to the Lord or to Christ, it very often is referring to the Spirit, that is, the Spirit that lives in the hearts of every follower of Jesus, and the Spirit that causes us to experience freedom—from depression, discouragement, jealousy, envy, anger, lust, and all other kinds of sin.

Notes from the NAB

12 [17] The Lord is the Spirit: the “Lord” to whom the Christian turns (⇒ 2 Cor 3:16) is the Spirit of whom Paul has been speaking, the life-giving Spirit of the living God (⇒ 2 Cor 3:6, 8), the inaugurator of the new covenant and ministry, who is also the Spirit of Christ. The Spirit of the Lord: the Lord here is the living God (⇒ 2 Cor 3:3), but there may also be an allusion to Christ as Lord (⇒ 2 Cor 3:14, ⇒ 16). Freedom: i.e., from the ministry of death (⇒ 2 Cor 3:7) and the covenant that condemned (⇒ 2 Cor 3:9).

 

[adrift]

How can you say it’s awesome when you don’t feel anything? I’m trying to be as respectful as I know how, but it sounds like you are imagining something that’s not real.

Let me put it this way. Which is more real, a love one whose picture you have or the love one present with you.
That is the difference in your question. You seem to think that having Jesus in your heart is more real than Having His Body and Blood nourish you. Please don’t take offense at my being so blunt but having Jesus in your heart kinda sounds like an over used clique that has no true meaning.

Jesus is always with me in spirit even though I have never eaten the consecrated bread or drunk the wine of Catholic Eucharist—I take that back—there have been times I have visited a Catholic church and partaken of the bread and wine, but that’s not how I received His eternal life. I received His eternal life the moment I surrendered my life to Him.

You should not receive Communion when you are not in communion.

I am the living bread which came down out of heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: yea and the bread which I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove one with another, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, ye have not life in yourselves.
54 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me, and I in him.

 

[adrift]

Thanks for your honesty. I feel a little better now. I bet many Roman Catholics feel the way you do.

I think you would loose that bet

 

[Luvtosew]

Thanks for your honesty. I feel a little better now. I bet many Roman Catholics feel the way you do.

Your right they do. Partaking in the Lords Supper is an important to do and all Churches should
offer it in a respectful manner and people should take it respectfully remembering what Jeusus did for us, but its also a joyous memory in that he is risne. I know what you mean Jesus is in my heart also always.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

It’s the difference between the relationship I have with my brother (permanent, lifelong, and unbreakable, since it is a relationship of blood - even if we get angry with each other or don’t speak for many years, we will always be of the same blood, and required to take care of each other no matter what happens), and the relationship i have with my best friend (which can be broken with angry words or long silences, being as there is no tie of blood or kinship there).

Once you are blood kin to Jesus by means of the Eucharist, there is no going back. Nothing can ever stop you.

Do you believe it is possible for someone who has known the Lord to turn completely back to the devil, lose all faith, and end up in hell? As you probably know, some Christians believe once saved, always saved. (Incidentally, they’re using the word saved to mean justification. Catholics don’t usually use the word “saved” for that, do they?)

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

I find the way you have phrased this to be insulting [calling the blood and body of the Lord in the Eucharist bread and wine]. I do not believe you meant it to be but the priest does not give some bread and a taste of wine. The priest gives us Jesus’ Body and Blood. Please be more respectful. I know you do not believe but you know that Catholics do.

Hi, adrift.
You are right, I didn’t mean to be insulting. How would you suggest I refer to the body and blood of the Lord in the Eucharist when I don’t want to be deceitful and lead someone to believe that I believe it is the blood and body of the Lord when I only believe they represent the body and blood of the Lord? Could I call them the accidents without being insulting?

I am not sure if you are aware but when we speak of receiving the Body and Blood of Jesus that we are referring to the resurrected Glorified Jesus.

When you say the body of the resurrected, Glorified Jesus, do you mean the body of Jesus that Thomas touched?

I can assure you that I’m not an agnostic! You almost insulted me! I say “almost” because I realize interdenominational communication can be difficult and so I put my thick skin on!

You said, “I don’t believe that God can be totally understood because we have such an inferior intellect. I think here we might have a problem of definition. What your understanding of a mystery is and what I believe it is.”

That’s likely!

Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus, adrift? Is He living in your heart because you have made Him your Lord?

God bless you. Have a nice day!