J
jmcrae
Guest
Are you trying to lead us away into heresy, then?
I hope you are here to learn the Truth, so as to come and follow Him in all His glory!
- Status
I hope you are here to learn the Truth, so as to come and follow Him in all His glory!
C
Cal_Fullerton
Guest
Wow! This is very interesting. It never really occurred to me that my Catholic son-in-law might sometimes walk out on a quality discussion about Jesus because he didn’t want to be in the presence of what he deemed heresy. He is the non-confrontational type.
I’ll ask my wife what she thinks. My wife says some people think they shouldn’t talk about their religion. He is somewhat of a private chap, too.
Do you have any suggestions for how I might break the barriers? It’s not like we’ve been criticizing Catholicism. (I’ve done that a lot on this forum, but almost never in his presence.)
C
Cal_Fullerton
Guest
C
Cal_Fullerton
Guest
OK. . . . soooo, why do Protestants think that Catholics think the Popes are infallible?
C
Cal_Fullerton
Guest
Yes–his [John Michael Talbot’s] music is very uplifting.
Wow, another connection!
P
PRmerger
Guest
Because they misunderstand the Church’s teaching.
The popes are only infallible in their office. That is, in their position as the vicar of Christ. They are not infallible as human persons.
P
PRmerger
Guest
:dancing:
P
PRmerger
Guest
Because you asked me if I thought that there were Catholics who partook of the Eucharist who didn’t have the Spirit of God in them…yet you yourself acknowledge that it’s impossible to tell if someone truly has this Spirit.
That’s puzzling, then, that you would ask me to judge another Catholic, when you have already declared that we can’t tell.
J
jmcrae
Guest
No, you wouldn’t have to be criticizing Catholicism. But if you were talking about the “Rapture,” or telling someone that there are 66 books in the Bible, or saying anything about “naming and claiming,” or talking about “Mary’s other children” or anything else that contradicts the clear teaching of the Apostles, then he would not be able to be in the same room with that sort of thing - or at least I know I wouldn’t, and if he’s like me, then he would have trouble being able to stay in the same room and hear things like that - not that they are offensive, but they are just so completely incorrect that he would be jumping out of his skin to correct you, which would not be very good for the family, so I know that in that situation, I would have to simply leave the room, rather than try to correct family members who mean well, and possibly offend them.
When everyone is coming from different places, this is actually a good policy. Focus on the food, the game, and the weather, to avoid arguments among people of different religions and/or politics.
Maybe stick to discussions about what you are doing for the poor (maybe describe a time you went to the homeless shelter to volunteer and talk about what that was like), the activities that are taking place at church (a raffle to raise money for Syrian refugees, perhaps), and who’s doing what (so and so is getting married; so and so is having his 90th birthday, stuff like that). These are things he would be able to relate to, and share his own experiences of serving the poor, raising money for good causes, and people in his parish who are doing interesting things.
G
guanophore
Guest
Most of the time it is because they are misinformed and uneducated.
C
Cal_Fullerton
Guest
Sorry, I almost forgot about you guys last week. 
Before getting back to the normal course of our conversation—if there is a normal course—I’d like to know if the Catholic Church agrees with the Apostle’s Creed. . . . Yes, you do. I answered my own question. That’s a lot to agree on, isn’t it?
For easy reference, I’ll put it here:
I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven; sits at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.
The World Book Encyclopedia says, “The Protestant form generally substitutes the word Maker for Creator and uses catholic or Christian instead of Catholic.” That’s a significant difference, and a difference that is not unrelated to our topic.
Before getting back to the normal course of our conversation—if there is a normal course—I’d like to know if the Catholic Church agrees with the Apostle’s Creed. . . . Yes, you do. I answered my own question. That’s a lot to agree on, isn’t it?
For easy reference, I’ll put it here:
I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven; sits at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.
The World Book Encyclopedia says, “The Protestant form generally substitutes the word Maker for Creator and uses catholic or Christian instead of Catholic.” That’s a significant difference, and a difference that is not unrelated to our topic.
J
jmcrae
Guest
I suspect that there are many Protestants who would want to reword more than just the “Catholic” part.Sorry, I almost forgot about you guys last week.
Before getting back to the normal course of our conversation—if there is a normal course—I’d like to know if the Catholic Church agrees with the Apostle’s Creed. . . . Yes, you do. I answered my own question. That’s a lot to agree on, isn’t it?
For easy reference, I’ll put it here:
I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven; sits at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.
The World Book Encyclopedia says, “The Protestant form generally substitutes the word Maker for Creator and uses catholic or Christian instead of Catholic.” That’s a significant difference, and a difference that is not unrelated to our topic.
But yes - we believe the Apostles’ Creed, and the Nicene Creed as well.
I believe in one God, the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial
with the Father;
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate
of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
Code:
For our sake he was crucified
under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son
is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
I believe in one, holy, catholic,
and apostolic Church.
I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection
of the dead and the life of the world to come.
Amen.
L
Linda_Marie
Guest
We say either the Apostle’s Creed or the Nicene Creed at Mass. The priest decides which one to use. Both of them are from the Catholic Church.Sorry, I almost forgot about you guys last week.
Before getting back to the normal course of our conversation—if there is a normal course—I’d like to know if the Catholic Church agrees with the Apostle’s Creed. . . . Yes, you do. I answered my own question. That’s a lot to agree on, isn’t it?
For easy reference, I’ll put it here:
I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven; sits at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.
The World Book Encyclopedia says, “The Protestant form generally substitutes the word Maker for Creator and uses catholic or Christian instead of Catholic.” That’s a significant difference, and a difference that is not unrelated to our topic.
Here is the new translation of the Apostle’s Creed:
I believe in God, the Father almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried;
he descended into hell;
on the third day he rose again from the dead;
he ascended into heaven,
and is seated at the right hand
of God the Father almighty;
from there he will come to judge
the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting. Amen.
and in Latin:
Credo in Deum Patremomnipotentem;
Creatorem caeli et terrae.
Et in Jesum Christum,
Filium eius unicum, Dominum nostrum;
quiconceptus est de Spiritu Sancto,
natus ex Maria virgine;
passus sub Pontio Pilato,
crucifixus, mortuus, et sepultus;
descendit ad inferos;
tertia die resurrexit a mortuis;
ascendit adcaelos;
sedet ad dexteram Dei Patris omnipotentis;
inde venturusest
iudicare vivos et mortuos.
Credo in Spiritum Sanctum;
sanctam ecclesiam catholicam;
sanctorum communionem;
remissionem peccatorum;
carnisresurrectionem;
vitam aeternam. Amen.
and in Greek:
Πιστεύω εἰς ΘΕΟΝ ΠΑΤΕΡΑ, παντοκράτορα, ποιητὴν οὐρανοῦ καὶ γῆς.
Καὶ (εἰς) ἸΗΣΟΥΝ ΧΡΙΣΤΟΝ, υἱὸν αὐτοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ, τὸν κύριον ἡμῶν, τὸν συλληφθέντα ἐκ πνεύματος ἁγίου, γεννηθέντα ἐκ Μαρίας τῆς παρθένου, παθόντα ἐπὶ Ποντίου Πιλάτου, σταυρωθέντα, θανόντα, καὶ ταφέντα, κατελθόντα εἰς τὰ κατώτατα ,44 τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρᾳ ἀναστάντα ἀπὸ τῶν νεκρῶν, ἀνελθόντα εἰς τοὺς οὐρανούς, καθεζόμενον ἐν δεξιᾷ θεοῦ πατρὸς παντοδυνάμου, ἐκαῖθεν ἐρχόμενον κρῖναι ζῶντας καὶ νεκρούς.
Πιστεύω εἰς τὸ ΠΝΕΥΜΑ ΤΟ ἍΓΙΟΝ, ἁγίαν καθολικὴν ἐκκλησίαν, ἁγίων κοινωνίαν, ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν, σαρκὸς ἀνάστασιν, ζωὴν αἰώνιον. Ἀμήν.
Don’t know how you can translate catholicam as Christian. Christian in Latin is Christus.
The Greek word** Χριστιανός** (Christianos)—meaning “follower of Christ”—comes from Χριστός (Christos)
καθολικὴν is not Χριστιανός
The Church was first called Catholic in Acts 9:31, in Greek ecclesia kath olos Judea which is usually translated as ‘the church throughout Judea’ but can also be translated as the ‘universal church in Judea’ or the ‘Catholic Church in Judea’.
The Catholic Church is the Church which Jesus founded on Peter. No substitutes should be accepted. All Protestant churches have some doctrinal beef with the Teachings of Christ which have been preserved by the Church through the Protection and Guidance of the Holy Spirit. Especially about the Eucharist. It is intolerable language and they walk away.
John 6:
53. Jesus replied to them: In all truth I tell you, if you do not eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54. Anyone who does eat my flesh and drink my blood has eternal life, and I shall raise that person up on the last day.
55. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood lives in me and I live in that person.
57. As the living Father sent me and I draw life from the Father, so whoever eats me will also draw life from me.
58. This is the bread which has come down from heaven; it is not like the bread our ancestors ate: they are dead, but anyone who eats this bread will live for ever.
59. This is what he taught at Capernaum in the synagogue.
60. After hearing it, many of his followers said,** ‘This is intolerable language. How could anyone accept it?’**
61. Jesus was aware that his followers were complaining about it and said, 'Does this disturb you?
62. What if you should see the Son of man ascend to where he was before?
63. 'It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh has nothing to offer. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.
64. ‘But there are some of you who do not believe.’ For Jesus knew from the outset who did not believe and who was to betray him.
65. He went on, ‘This is why I told you that no one could come to me except by the gift of the Father.’
66. After this, many of his disciples went away and accompanied him no more.
67. Then Jesus said to the Twelve, ‘What about you, do you want to go away too?’
68. Simon Peter answered, ‘Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the message of eternal life,
69. and we believe; we have come to know that you are the Holy One of God.’
Leia mais em: bibliacatolica.com.br/25/50/6.php#ixzz24nlO8FSe
Why did they say it was intolerable? Why did they leave Him? because they understood Him literally, that He was advocating what they saw as cannibalism when He said that we must eat His Body and drink His Blood, in order to have eternal life.
What words are spirit and life? - we must eat His Body and drink His Blood if we want eternal life.
The choice is before you. Jesus asks you, ‘What about you, do you want to go away too?’
C
Cal_Fullerton
Guest
Hi Linda,
I’ve heard others say they came into the kingdom of God kicking and screaming.
You know, my conversion was not totally unlike that, or unlike yours. My mom witnessed to me in no uncertain terms during my last year in High School. She didn’t want to see me go out into the world without the Lord. I resisted. I didn’t even want to talk about it. I thought at the time that becoming a Christian would ruin some of my fun. Boy, was I ever wrong! Just the opposite is true. I was deceived by the devil.
2 Corinthians 4:4 (NIV)
**The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ. . . . **
But some things she said stuck with me. At age 24 I dated and sort of fell in love with a mature Christian girl. I saw a lot of the Lord in her. I saw joy and peace and love in her. And I wanted it. God also brought several other Christians across my path—I was in Tennessee, in the “Bible belt” of the U.S. Was God answering my mom’s prayers? I don’t know. I do know God was pursuing me gently. I will be forever grateful.
You said, “We may partake of His spiritual nourishment any time.”
That’s good to hear.
You said, “Only in the reception of the Eucharist does that nourishment become physical as well as spiritual.”
The following is not exactly the verse I was looking for but maybe it will do. The writer of Hebrews was talking about Old Testament Temple worship when he said,
Hebrews 9:9-11 (NIV)
This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.
It seems to me that physical food and drink is not helpful, unless, of course, they point to a higher truth and that higher truth is consequently realized.
You said, “In the Eucharist, His Divine Body physically enters ours as food, as physical nourishment; His Divine Substance becomes part of our substance. This is how we share in Divine Life, how we become One Body in Christ. If we do not eat His Body and drink His Blood, our mortal flesh is not transformed, but remains mortal. The more we receive the Eucharist, the more our physical bodies are made of Divine Substance, the more Christ-like we become. He is our Food, placed in a manger at birth, called Lamb of God by John the Baptist, sacrificed at Calvary. And we must eat His Body and drink His Blood if we want to share in His Life.”
It sounds as if you are saying that Protestants cannot share in Divine Life, cannot become a part of the spiritual body of Christ, and cannot share in the resurrection of the just on the last day and go to heaven.
Is that what you mean? If so, I know you are incorrect. And I know that what you’re saying is a violent violation of my precious faith in Jesus.
However, I will not love you any less. I know you mean well. I know you love Jesus. I can tell that you are a sweet lady. And I won’t hold it against you.
You then said, “It doesn’t matter what you feel.”
In all honesty, that statement makes me think of Muslims bowing down to worship Allah. They believe they are accomplishing something and yet we know that they are not feeling the Lord and not touching the Lord in any real way.
Take care. God bless you and every member of your wonderful family, little :crying: and large.
Yours in Christ,
Cal
J
jmcrae
Guest
Just as there are Protestants who feel the presence of the Lord in their lives, so also there are Muslims who feel the presence of the Lord in their lives, active and working in them. I have met several Muslims who have a deeper and more personal relationship with God than many of my own relatives. God can work mysteriously and wonderfully, even in the lives of those who don’t know Him very well.
Still, it is always better to be a Catholic, I think.
P
PRmerger
Guest
No, Cal. That is not what the Catholic Church proclaims, and I did not see that in Linda’s commentary.
Anyone baptized in the Trinitarian formula, using water, has the Divine Life of Christ in him.
But the fullness of this life is found in the Catholic Church.
With all due respect, I must say that you absolutely can NOT say what Muslims are “not feeling”.
L
Linda_Marie
Guest
until the time of the new order.
Christ is the new order and His order is to eat His Body and drink His Blood, the sacrifice that does remove our sins. We must participate in that sacrifice if we want to participate in the resurrection.
Hebrews 9:9 -11 (Knox)
9 And that allegory still holds good at the present day; here are gifts and sacrifices being offered, which have no power, where conscience is concerned, to bring the worshipper to his full growth; they are but outward observances, connected with food and drink 10 and ceremonial washings on this occasion or that, instituted to hold their own until better times should come.
11 Meanwhile, Christ has taken his place as our high priest, to win us blessings that still lie in the future. He makes use of a greater, a more complete tabernacle, which human hands never fashioned; it does not belong to this order of creation at all.
You left off verse 11 in your quote.
Jesus in the Eucharist is Divine food and drink that does not belong to this order of creation at all.
Your argument is not with me. It is Jesus who said it. [BIBLEDRB]John 6: 54[/BIBLEDRB]
As you said in the opening post of this thread, *I believe you’ll find some absolute requirements, some nonnegotiables—**we must do them OR ELSE! ***
It is dangerous to base your faith on your feelings. Feelings are transient, mutable. They can change or disappear entirely. They can come from God or from the evil one. If you base your faith on your feelings, if you lose your feelings, you will lose your faith.
C
Cal_Fullerton
Guest
Hello my Catholic friends & spiritual relatives,
I have an important question for you. I grabbed the following statement of faith from the National Association of Evangelicals. Which ones do the Catholic Church agree with, and which ones don’t you agree with? Your answers, which needn’t be long, will help me have an overall picture of how we compare. Thanks!
Statement of Faith
I have an important question for you. I grabbed the following statement of faith from the National Association of Evangelicals. Which ones do the Catholic Church agree with, and which ones don’t you agree with? Your answers, which needn’t be long, will help me have an overall picture of how we compare. Thanks!
Statement of Faith
Code:
We believe the Bible to be the inspired, the only infallible, authoritative Word of God.
We believe that there is one God, eternally existent in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
We believe in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, in His virgin birth, in His sinless life, in His miracles, in His vicarious and atoning death through His shed blood, in His bodily resurrection, in His ascension to the right hand of the Father, and in His personal return in power and glory.
We believe that for the salvation of lost and sinful people, regeneration [the rebirth of the spirit] by the Holy Spirit is absolutely essential.
We believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit by whose indwelling the Christian is enabled to live a godly life.
We believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost; they that are saved unto the resurrection of life and they that are lost unto the resurrection of damnation.
We believe in the spiritual unity of believers in our Lord Jesus Christ.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Catholics disagree.
The Bible does not claim to be the only inspired infallible authoritative Word of God and thus the above statement is contradictory.
Agree.
Yes, indeed!
True!
Yep!
Kind of. Not sure exactly what this means. The terminology of “unto” is a bit unclear to me.
To be sure!
C
Cal_Fullerton
Guest
That sounds good.
But are you saying, like Mormons often say, that the Holy Spirit (or the rebirth of the human spirit, or the entering into the kingdom of God, or, as you put it, the reception of the mark of Christ) begins at baptism and not before? In other words, are you saying that baptism is essential for forgiveness of sins, that you will go to hell if you are not baptized, even though you’ve sincerely turned your heart toward Jesus to serve him?
Also, does Protestant baptism count for anything in your humble opinion?
P.S. I love your comic of the crying woman. :bounce:
- Status