SPLIT: Those Who Leave the Catholic Faith

[TheApologist]

What Atemi is referring to is the other rites of the Catholic Church. I don’t think he meant half as in divided. We all are in full communion and the non-Roman rites follow the pope. He just meant he’s learning about all the rites of Catholicism

 

[dessert]

There is absolutely no way you can know that.

I did mean the ones I was in about a dozen. I won’t list so this is approximate but they do have a right to do what they want, I am going to spend some time on the rosary thanks. Dessert

 

[Atemi]

You do understand that the Church knows that there are those out of the Church which can be saved…it is not against Catholic dogma…you should actually do your research. Maybe you should actually read the Catechism or the Canon and not make assumptions.
Maybe you should also read a Catholic.com article on the subject.

It seems that you do not understand what I was asking. I guess making assumptions is common to us all.

I asked:

So there are those that can be saved outside of the Catholic Church (the Body of Christ)?

I did not ask:

So there are those that can be saved outside of being a Roman Catholic?

I never assumed anything.

It is Catholic dogma that all that are saved are in the Body of Christ in one way or another. Again, please read up on the dogma of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.

That is Latin for “Outside the Church there is no salvation.”

The Church is the Body of Christ, correct?

As to what the dogma meant in times past, and what it has been changed to mean today, that is another thread…

 

[Atemi]

You are wrong.

CCC 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.1

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2031163&postcount=1

 

[Atemi]

No, not WILL be saved. MAY be saved. I know there was a post on this earlier. God is infinite in mercy. He may save anyone He pleases.

I did not ask if someone can be saved in they are not Roman Catholic.

I asked if you believe that someone can be saved if they are OUTSIDE of the Body of Christ (the Ark of salvation).

 

[Blinky]

Would you say that leaving the Roman Catholic church is the same as leaving Jesus?

Yes, because He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, Who established His Church on the Rock of St. Peter.

 

[TheApologist]

It seems that you do not understand what I was asking. I guess making assumptions is common to us all.

I asked:

So there are those that can be saved outside of the Catholic Church (the Body of Christ)?

I did not ask:

So there are those that can be saved outside of being a Roman Catholic?

I never assumed anything.

It is Catholic dogma that all that are saved are in the Body of Christ in one way or another. Again, please read up on the dogma of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.

That is Latin for “Outside the Church there is no salvation.”

The Church is the Body of Christ, correct?

As to what the dogma meant in times past, and what it has been changed to mean today, that is another thread…

I assumed correctly though. You ASSUME that those who aren’t in the entire Catholic church aren’t saved. Maybe you should actually read the article. If one doesn’t have knowledge or adequate resources(ways to be taught, learn) of the Gospel, then one can be saved. You ASSUME that I meant there is salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church. I meant that there is salvation outside of all Catholicism. Maybe you should read the Catechism on the subject of “outside the church there is no salvation.”

Catechism of the Catholic Church
“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

 

[tdgesq]

I asked:

So there are those that can be saved outside of the Catholic Church (the Body of Christ)?

No.

**Pius IX (1846-1878 A.D.)

For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God…But the Catholic dogma that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church is well- known; and also that those who are obstinate toward the authority and definitions of the same Church, and who persistently separate themselves from the unity of the Church, and from the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter, to whom ‘the guardianship of the vine has been entrusted by the Savior,’ cannot obtain eternal salvation (From the Allocution, Singulari quadem. Found in Denzinger, pp. 416, 425; #1647, 1677).**

The Church is the Body of Christ, correct?

Yes it is, and there is no salvation outside of it. Even those who “through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience . . .” are still part of the Mystical Body of Christ that is the Roman Catholic Church. See CCC 847. New Advent makes this clear.

It should be observed that those who are thus saved are not entirely outside the pale of the Church. The will to fulfill all God’s commandments is, and must be, present in all of them. Such a wish implicitly includes the desire for incorporation with the visible Church: for this, though they know it not, has been commanded by God. They thus belong to the Church by desire (voto). Moreover, there is a true sense in which they may be said to be saved through the Church. In the order of Divine Providence, salvation is given to man in the Church: membership in the Church Triumphant is given through membership in the Church Militant. Sanctifying grace, the title to salvation, is peculiarly the grace of those who are united to Christ in the Church: it is the birthright of the children of God. The primary purpose of those actual graces which God bestows upon those outside the Church is to draw them within the fold. Thus, even in the case in which God Saves men apart from the Church, He does so through the Church’s graces. They are joined to the Church in spiritual communion, though not in visible and external communion. In the expression of theologians, they belong to the soul of the Church, though not to its body. newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm

 

[TheApologist]

Even those who “through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience . . .” are still part of the Mystical Body of Christ that is the Roman Catholic Church. See CCC 847.

Thanks for correcting me. Yeah I was refering to being outside of the physical Church. But that makes sense, that they are in the Mystical Body of Christ.

 

[tdgesq]

Thanks for correcting me. Yeah I was refering to being outside of the physical Church. But that makes sense, that they are in the Mystical Body of Christ.

I wasn’t trying to correct you, I assumed you meant outside the visible structured Church only.

 

[Janet_S]

I am with you kaycee.

They must, of necessity, tell us that we were ignorant of Catholicsim. Why else would we leave?

I find this response to be loaded with many false assumptions and errors. It is unfortunate because the RCC is a sieve right now and claiming that those who leave it are just ignorant is only self deception, IMO.

I believe this must be done to actually convince the Catholic that he/she is correct. Their neighbor must be torn down to support the Catholic’s presuppositions.

That’s just my take so far. I see it over and over again.

That’s your take, and you may never change you mind about it. I’m in no position to argue with you about your life experiences.

However, many of us Catholics posting on this forum have left the Church for periods of times in our lives, just like you and Kaycee have, so we do have some understanding of what you are talking about. Don’t dismiss us that easily, you may learn something from us.

I was raised Catholic, left the Church as a teenager, and stayed away from the Church for about 28 years.

I used to say horrible things about the Church, and if I had been posting on this forum 10 years ago, I would have been in league with both you and Kaycee.

Fast forward to the present time, and I am a great defender of the Holy Catholic Church. Not only do I defend the Church, but also I would defend it to the point of giving up my life for the Church. What changed? My childhood didn’t change. Still the same experience of Catholic schools and nuns that I used to regard with scorn and bitterness. The Catholic Church and its teachings didn’t change in the 28 years since I left the Church. Yet why is that I now love the very same Church that I used to despise?

I can say for me what did change was my thinking, my conversion, my outlook on life, and the time I spent learning about the Bible, Church history, and the Catholic Church.

We all need to undergo conversion at some stage in our lives–a time when we commit our lives to Christ. This type of conversion can occur either within or outside of the CC. I experienced my conversion within the CC. For you and Kaycee, your conversion took place outside the CC and you seem to resent the CC because you didn’t have a conversion while you were a Catholic.

Still, I do believe anyone who was ever Catholic remains linked to the CC for the rest of their lives. The Catholic author Evelyn Waugh wrote this in a memo:

"The RCC has the unique power of keeping remote control over human souls which have once been part of her. GK Chesterton has compared this to the fisherman’s line, which allows the fish the illusion of free play in the water and yet has him by the hook; in his own time the fisherman by a ‘twitch upon the thread’ draws the fish to land.’ "

I do believe you and Kaycee still have that “fisherman’s line” which keeps you tethered to the CC. If you didn’t, why are you here now discussing the Catholic faith?

 

[Atemi]

Thanks for correcting me. Yeah I was refering to being outside of the physical Church. But that makes sense, that they are in the Mystical Body of Christ.

So after all this, you finally come to your senses?

I asked quite plainly earlier:

“Are you saying that the RCC teaches that there are those outside of the Body of Christ that will be saved?”

You quite plainly responded:

“Of course”

I then asked you:

“You do understand that that is against Catholic dogma (extra ecclesiam nulla salus), right?”

And what is your response?

You tell me that I should do some research and actually read the Catechism. You tell me not to make assumptions and that I should read some article.

Sigh.

Four posts later, come to find out, you did not know or understand one of the basic dogmas of your own church. How is it that you post here and lecture others who actually do know the dogmas of your church?

You should refrain from lecturing others about understanding Catholic teaching better when you have yet to do so yourself. Unfortunately, we even had another one of our Catholic friends join you in getting Catholic dogma incorrect.

The answer to my rhetorical question is “NO,” just as tdgesq pointed out and corrected you on.

You should not assume you know more than you do. I actually repeated my question so you would have an ample opportunity to address it correctly. Instead you chose to attack me for actually understanding what the position of your own church is in this regard.

 

[Atemi]

Thank you for the correct answer.

This is correct Catholic teaching (at least for now).

If this is true, however, how is it one can both leave the Body of Christ and be in it at the very same time?

As the Catholics on this thread have insisted:

“we do warn people that to leave the Catholic Church is to become separated from the Body of Christ”

“leaving the Catholic Church is the same as leaving Jesus”

“Any Catholic who leaves the Catholic Church for a Protestant one is rejecting Jesus”

“Let me just say that I hope the former Catholic will return to the Church before he dies, for he will be judged by Jesus Christ as to why he left His Bride, the Church.”

How is one both outside the Body of Christ and inside the Body of Christ…all at the same time?

 

[Church_Militant]

Thank you for the correct answer.

This is correct Catholic teaching (at least for now).

If this is true, however, how is it one can both

leave the Body of Christ and be in it at the very same time?

As the Catholics on this thread have insisted:

“we do warn people that to leave the Catholic Church is to become separated from the Body of Christ”

“leaving the Catholic Church is the same as leaving Jesus”

“Any Catholic who leaves the Catholic Church for a Protestant one is rejecting Jesus”

“Let me just say that I hope the former Catholic will return to the Church before he dies, for he will be judged by Jesus Christ as to why he left His Bride, the Church.”

How is one both outside the Body of Christ and inside the Body of Christ…all at the same time?You wish…this is stuff from one Catholic person and not very well stated.

Lemme break this down for you so you can stop trying twist what people have said. I know you wish that there was inconsistencies, but it’s only in your wishful thinking.

Did the NT church excommunicate people? Yes they did.

Did that stop them from being Christians? No it did not.

Was it ever intended to be permanent or is it remedial? It’s remedial.

Did it ever cost a believer their life? Ask Ananias and Sapphira in Acts and St. Paul in 1st Corinthians 11:23-30.

So then, as an “ex-Catholic” who apparently has not only left the church but has professed opposition to Church teachings, do you actually incur a defacto excommunication? Probably.

Does that stop you from being a believer? Not unless you just totally reject Christ, which I see nothing that says you have.

Will we all answer for what we have believed? Yep!

Do I know (and does the Catholic Church profess to know) for certain what the final end of that accounting will be? Nope.

Quit trying to misrepresent what the church teaches to fit your agenda. That’s dishonest, and a lousy “witness”.

 

[Sixtus]

I could understand it if they defected to Orthodoxy but they don’t even do that!

 

[guanophore]

Hmmmm, so when God placed His spirit in me after I cried out to Him for salvation through His Son and His perfect sacrafice and left the RCC, I was rejecting Jesus?

Strange, after infant baptism, confession, communion, confirmation and near perfect mass attendance and 12 years of Catholic school with nuns, I had no more than a passing interest in spiritual things like 99% of my school mates.

After God saved me, I had an amazing thirst to read His Word, I could not get enough of it. I also wanted to Tell Everyone about the Jesus who saves sinners, but i guess I was really rejecting Jesus?

The Bible became REAL to me and the story of JESUS IS TRUE I want to shout it from the roof tops, but apparently its all for not as you tell me I have rejected my Savior? God had given me the peace that surpasses all understanding, but i guess i was just fooled.

Joh 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

No, that can’t be! Although you were exposed to the truth, you were clearly still dead in your trespasses and sins. How could someone fall away from something they did not have? You did not have faith, but a form thereof, without the power of God.

 

[dessert]

That’s your take, and you may never change you mind about it. I’m in no position to argue with you about your life experiences.

However, many of us Catholics posting on this forum have left the Church for periods of times in our lives, just like you and Kaycee have, so we do have some understanding of what you are talking about. Don’t dismiss us that easily, you may learn something from us.

I was raised Catholic, left the Church as a teenager, and stayed away from the Church for about 28 years.

I used to say horrible things about the Church, and if I had been posting on this forum 10 years ago, I would have been in league with both you and Kaycee.

Fast forward to the present time, and I am a great defender of the Holy Catholic Church. Not only do I defend the Church, but also I would defend it to the point of giving up my life for the Church. What changed? My childhood didn’t change. Still the same experience of Catholic schools and nuns that I used to regard with scorn and bitterness. The Catholic Church and its teachings didn’t change in the 28 years since I left the Church. Yet why is that I now love the very same Church that I used to despise?

I can say for me what did change was my thinking, my conversion, my outlook on life, and the time I spent learning about the Bible, Church history, and the Catholic Church.

We all need to undergo conversion at some stage in our lives–a time when we commit our lives to Christ. This type of conversion can occur either within or outside of the CC. I experienced my conversion within the CC. For you and Kaycee, your conversion took place outside the CC and you seem to resent the CC because you didn’t have a conversion while you were a Catholic.

Still, I do believe anyone who was ever Catholic remains linked to the CC for the rest of their lives. The Catholic author Evelyn Waugh wrote this in a memo:

"The RCC has the unique power of keeping remote control over human souls which have once been part of her. GK Chesterton has compared this to the fisherman’s line, which allows the fish the illusion of free play in the water and yet has him by the hook; in his own time the fisherman by a ‘twitch upon the thread’ draws the fish to land.’ "

I do believe you and Kaycee still have that “fisherman’s line” which keeps you tethered to the CC. If you didn’t, why are you here now discussing the Catholic faith?

Great explanation I also was away and am glad to be back close to the fisherman! Dessert

 

[dessert]

I could understand it if they defected to Orthodoxy but they don’t even do that!

Orthodoxy:shrug: don’t confuse them that is another cruise line don’t they have a glass bottom boat so they can see all the fish and seperate the sharks from the whales etc.
just joking I used to be afraid of EAstern and Orthodoxy but not anymore as you are not as an alien as I thought Dessert

 

[dessert]

Hmmmm, so when God placed His spirit in me after I cried out to Him for salvation through His Son and His perfect sacrafice and left the RCC, I was rejecting Jesus?

Strange, after infant baptism, confession, communion, confirmation and near perfect mass attendance and 12 years of Catholic school with nuns, I had no more than a passing interest in spiritual things like 99% of my school mates.

After God saved me, I had an amazing thirst to read His Word, I could not get enough of it. I also wanted to Tell Everyone about the Jesus who saves sinners, but i guess I was really rejecting Jesus?

The Bible became REAL to me and the story of JESUS IS TRUE I want to shout it from the roof tops, but apparently its all for not as you tell me I have rejected my Savior? God had given me the peace that surpasses all understanding, but i guess i was just fooled.

Joh 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

Why did you feel like you had not had salvation after baptism,confession, communion, confirmation?
Was it bacause someone told you you were not saved because you didn’t really know Jesus? Like them because they had all the answers?
When really along you had it you just weren’t sure about what you did understand.
What made you think the story of Jesus wasn’t true? Dessert

 

[TheApologist]

Thank you for the correct answer.

This is correct Catholic teaching (at least for now).

If this is true, however, how is it one can both leave the Body of Christ and be in it at the very same time?

As the Catholics on this thread have insisted:

“we do warn people that to leave the Catholic Church is to become separated from the Body of Christ”

“leaving the Catholic Church is the same as leaving Jesus”

“Any Catholic who leaves the Catholic Church for a Protestant one is rejecting Jesus”

“Let me just say that I hope the former Catholic will return to the Church before he dies, for he will be judged by Jesus Christ as to why he left His Bride, the Church.”

How is one both outside the Body of Christ and inside the Body of Christ…all at the same time?

I assumed you meant the physical Catholic Church. Not the Mystical Body of Christ. If you actually read the post afterwards you would see that. There are those outside of the physical Church Body of Christ which can be saved, but there aren’t those outside of the Mystical Body of Christ. You often hear people saying “that person is in Christ” or “they are living in Christ.” It’s just like this for those who are in the Mystical Body of Christ. Don’t twist my words…thank you.

EDIT:
But know that those who are not in the physical Church and are in the Mystical Body of Christ must not know, through no fault of their own, the Word of God…the Truth, but, by being moved by God’s grace, is truly living in Christ.