SPLIT: What did Christ teach that wasn't written,and if it wasn't written how can you be sure He taught it?

[n2thelight]

Wanner47

How do you know that Pastor Arnold Maurry is infallible in his teachings?

Furthermore, are you going to respond to my post that proved, very clearly, that men do have the power to forgive sins?

No man is infallible,but what he teaches checks out in the Word

I John 4:1 “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits, whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”

The only way you can check out any one is in the Word

I must have missed that proof post please give #

 

[guanophore]

Cut and paste

Some here think that I just go everywhere and pull out things against the Catholic Church,so I thought Id take the time to say why.

First, if I quote some one, I agree with that quote,when I supply the link at the end, I agree with what was said on that particular point,but in no way should it be implied that I agree with all of whomevers teachings.Its hard sometimes for me to put my thoughts in writting,so its easier for me this way.

Example,I can read the sayings of the kkk,and quote something from them that is very true,but as an African American,it should be no question that I don’t agree with about 99% of what they teach.

Just thought I needed to get that out there

It may be difficult for you, but it will be worth the effort. The point was, why are you choosing anti-catholic sites to represent yourself? Why not cut and paste from the Catechism? At least that way, if you have an arguement about what Catholics believe, you would be arguing about what we really believe, instead of all the errors you keep posting that are just represenations of bigotry and hatred, and having nothing to do with what the Church beleives and teaches.

 

[n2thelight]

guanophore

No, it is not nullified. However, your private interpretation of it is!

The NT was written by, for, and about Catholics. there is nothing in it that contradicts Church TEaching, or vice versa. Both strands of revelation came from the same Source, which is why they cannot contradict.

The example I just gave contradicts scripture

Point By your own Catchesim you say Mary is co mediator,yet scripture says there is only ONE mediator

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

969 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”

Both of these, no matter how you try to twist Timothy can’t be right,so I ask which should I believe?

 

[guanophore]

Matthew 9:8 “But when the multitudes saw it, they marveled, and glorified God, Which had given such power unto men.”

“Unto men” reads in the original text, “unto a man”.

Really? where did you see a copy of THAT!?

Also, how do you account for the fact that the whole generation of the Apostles disciples misunderstood what that scripture meant, even before they wrote it down?

And, how do you account for the fact that the HS was so weak that He was not able to correct this mistake for 1500 years? Did the Devil have the HS chained up, so He was unable to lead the Church into “all truth” as was promised?

No man can forgive your sins,period.

Why do you think Jesus would ask His disciples to do something that was impossible for them?

Matt 6:14-15

14 For if **you forgive men **their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; 15 but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Matt 18:21-22

21 Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven.

 

[wanner47]

No man is infallible,but what he teaches checks out in the Word

I John 4:1 “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits, whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”

The only way you can check out any one is in the Word

I must have missed that proof post please give #

What the CC teaches also “checks out in the Word.” Who is right, you or me?

Furthermore, if your pastor believes, as you do, that “No man can ever forgive sins,” that belief is directly contradicted by Scripture, as I formerly posted. Therefore, your pastor’s teachings do not “check out in the Word” and are false.

 

[n2thelight]

guanophore

It may be difficult for you, but it will be worth the effort. The point was, why are you choosing anti-catholic sites to represent yourself? Why not cut and paste from the Catechism? At least that way, if you have an arguement about what Catholics believe, you would be arguing about what we really believe, instead of all the errors you keep posting that are just represenations of bigotry and hatred, and having nothing to do with what the Church beleives and teaches

Truth be told, I did’nt know they were anti Catholic,all I know is they helped with my point of view,so if I offended any here with the sites that I quoted from,do forgive me,as that was not my intentions,however I still stand by what was posted.

As far as quoting the Catechism I think that would be fair,so I will do so in the future

 

[guanophore]

I take it to no one,I compare what was said to scripture,I was taught to take no mans word for anything and to always check out what was said,compard to scripture,and I was taught this by scripture.

Have you considered that you may have been taught wrongly, or that you may have misunderstood what you have read?

Where does it say that you should take disagreement to the Scripture?:

Matt 18:15-20

15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”

You still seem to be missing the point that the Church, too, is God breathed.

I can’t go wrong with scripture,but with man and his traditions,I can go very wrong,and I say this meaning not only Catholic tradition,but any of mans traditions.

Any individual’s perceptions can be wrong. What you don’t seem to realize is that you read scripture through biased lenses, some of them resulting from man-made traditions. The most serious of those is Sola Scriptura, which is found no where in Scripture, and is a tradition of man.

You also do not realize that there is a difference between Sacred Tradition, and human traditions. Sacred Tradition is from God, and is not “man made”.

1.God
2.Inspiried men of God
3.Very much so
4.Don’t know,I don’t really care where these men are,because I know where Christ is,for He said He would never leave me nor forsake me,and I don’t think He was talking about a specific church.

Well, you are in error on this point. this promise was made to the Apostles, upon whose foundation Christ built His One Holy Catholic Church.

I don't think from my undersatnding of the Word that I 100% agree with anyman.But from my main teacher,who happens to be Pastor Arnold Maurry of the Shepherds Chapel what I do dis-agree with him on is very insignificant

I suppose it is comforting to know that there is a pastor who also shares the same traditions of man that you have inherited from those who broke away from Apostolic Teaching.

 

[savedsinner]

Scripture very plainly says, “There is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 2:5). Nonetheless, the Catholic Church insists that Mary is her Son’s "co-mediatrix.“2 And in the eyes of millions of Catholics, what the Church says is seen as the final and authoritative Word of God. First Timothy 2:5 is thus nullified by Church tradition.”

Catholics agree that scripture tells us that there is only one mediator. But you are taking 1 Timothy 2:5 out of context. Scripture also tells us that there is only one Foundation, only one Lord, only one Judge, only one Father, only one Teacher.

But we see that Moses, Abraham, and Job were examples of mediation and intercession between God and man, plus praying for one another here on earth is an example of mediating between man and God.

Scripture tells us there is only one foundation Christ
1 Cor 3:11
For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

But Scripture also tells us:
Eph 2:19-20
So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,

Rev 21:14
And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Scripture tells us that there is only one lord:
Eph 4:4-5
There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

But scripture also says:

Rev 19:16
And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

1 Peter 3:6
just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear.

Scripture tells us that there is just one judge Jesus:
James 4:12
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your neighbor?

2 Tim 4:1
solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:

But Scripture also says:

1 Cor 6:2
Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts?

Lk 22:28-30
"You are those who have stood by Me in My trials; and just as My Father has granted Me a kingdom, I grant you that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Scripture says that there is only one father:
Matthew 23:9
"Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.

But Scripture also says:
**Acts 7:2 **
And he said, "Hear me, brethren and fathers! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran,

Acts 22:1
“Brethren and fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you.”

1 Cor 4:15
For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

Scripture tells us that there is only one teacher, Jesus:
Mt 23:6-8
And the things desired by them are the first places at feasts, and the chief seats in the Synagogues, And words of respect in the market-places, and to be named by men, Teacher. But you may not be named Teacher: for one is your teacher, and you are all brothers.

But Scripture also says:
Acts 13:1
Now there were at Antioch, in the church that was there, prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

1 Cor 12:28
And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.

There are also other mentions of intercession/mediation other than Christ in scripture:
Matthew 18:10
"See to it that you do not despise one of these little ones, because I tell you, their angels in heaven always have access to my Father in heaven.

Rev 5:8
When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Rev 8:3-4
Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel’s hand.

When Catholics state that Mary is co-mediator, we are not saying that “co” means equal, but that she also played her part in salvation history.
To say that Mary is not a mediator in any way shape or form because of what 1 Timothy 3:5 says is taking it out of context.
God allows us humans to join him in his plan of salvation, and this is what He is doing with Mary.

(scriptures taken from biblechristiansociety.com/))

 

[n2thelight]

Wanner47

Furthermore, if your pastor believes, as you do, that “No man can ever forgive sins,” that belief is directly contradicted by Scripture, as I formerly posted. Therefore, your pastor’s teachings do not “check out in the Word” and are false.

Again please give scripture or post # and I will prove you wrong,because what you are saying is that you don’t need Christ,and that He died in vain.

Correct me if Im wrong,but are you saying that you can ask a priest to forgive you,without asking Christ and you are forgiven?

If thats the case,why did Christ need to die on the cross?

 

[wanner47]

Again please give scripture or post # and I will prove you wrong,because what you are saying is that you don’t need Christ,and that He died in vain.

Scripture or post # of what?

I am not saying that at all. Please prove your accusation by quoting my exact words.

Correct me if Im wrong,but are you saying that you can ask a priest to forgive you,without asking Christ and you are forgiven?

No, I am not saying that. A priest has no power to forgive or retain sins of his own power; that power is granted by Christ, who gave men the power to forgive and retain sins.

When a priest grants absolution, he says, “I absolve you of all your sins **in the name of **the Father, the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.”

 

[savedsinner]

Again please give scripture or post # and I will prove you wrong,because what you are saying is that you don’t need Christ,and that He died in vain.

Correct me if Im wrong,but are you saying that you can ask a priest to forgive you,without asking Christ and you are forgiven?

If thats the case,why did Christ need to die on the cross?

It is because of the fact that Christ died on the cross for our sins, that he was able to give this authority to men.

 

[Gamera]

Again please give scripture or post # and I will prove you wrong,because what you are saying is that you don’t need Christ,and that He died in vain.

Correct me if Im wrong,but are you saying that you can ask a priest to forgive you,without asking Christ and you are forgiven?

If thats the case,why did Christ need to die on the cross?

I addressed these in Post 487. For your convenience I repeat the applicable parts here:

“And when he said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven ; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained,’” John 20:21.

… Did you know that every Catholic says an Act of Contrition during sacramental confession? A typical Act of Contrition is, “Lord, I am most heartily sorry for my sins because they have offended you, and I ask forgiveness in Jesus’ name.” We cannot make a sacramental confession unless we make an Act of Contrition, nor will a priest grant absolution without it. Does that satisfy you? Or do we need to use the phrasing you wrote in the quote above? By what authority do you tell us how to pray?

Catholics cannot confess to a priest 'instead of" confessing to Jesus. We confess to Jesus through a priest.

 

[Gamera]

969 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”

Main Entry: me·di·a·trix
Pronunciation: -ˈā-triks\
Function: noun
Date: 15th century
: a woman who is a mediator

Main Entry: 1me·di·ate
Pronunciation: \ˈmē-dē-ət\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin mediatus intermediate, from past participle of mediare
Date: 15th century
1: occupying a middle position
2 a: acting through an intervening agency b: exhibiting indirect causation, connection, or relation

" If we accept the voice of the Church as infallibly correct, then what Scripture says about these questions is ultimately irrelevant. And in practice this is precisely what happens. To cite but one example, Scripture very plainly says, “There is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 2:5). Nonetheless, the Catholic Church insists that Mary is her Son’s "co-mediatrix.“2 And in the eyes of millions of Catholics, what the Church says is seen as the final and authoritative Word of God. First Timothy 2:5 is thus nullified by Church tradition.”

John MacArthur

Your source is comparing apples and oranges. Jesus is the sole mediator of God’s justice. Mary is the co-mediatrix of graces, not of God’s justice.

 

[guanophore]

My point is, Christ died so that I would not have to go through anyone to get to God.In other words I need no man here nor anyone in Heaven,what Im trying to say is I need no middle man,Christ is all I need period.

Well, I am curious how you came to such an unscriptural view. If all you need is Christ, why did He leave a Body/Church on earth? how do you explain away this passage?

1 Cor 12:21-26
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 On the contrary, the parts of the body which seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and those parts of the body which we think less honorable we invest with the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, 24 which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, 25 that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.

When I sin I don’t need a priest all I have to say is Father forgive me and ask in Christ name.And I am forgiven.

I don’t need the Pope,Peter Mark Paul or Mary

Judgement will start in the Church

Amen, may it begin here and now! May every perception of His Body that is not consistent with His Divine Revelation of Himself to us be burned up utterly!

 

[SD_Catholic]

I take it to no one,I compare what was said to scripture,I was taught to take no mans word for anything and to always check out what was said,compard to scripture,and I was taught this by scripture.

I can’t go wrong with scripture,but with man and his traditions,I can go very wrong,and I say this meaning not only Catholic tradition,but any of mans traditions.

1.God
2.Inspiried men of God
3.Very much so
4.Don’t know,I don’t really care where these men are,because I know where Christ is,for He said He would never leave me nor forsake me,and I don’t think He was talking about a specific church.

So you believe that the men who collected the books of the Bible were inspired but you disagree with how they interpreted these books??? I’m pretty sure that much of the criteria used by these men to determine what was actually inspired or not inspired (thus what was or wasn’t included in the Bible) was what they had been taught through Sacred Tradition and if these writings actually fit with what they had been taught. The ECFs have many writings that can help you understand what they understood these Scriptures to mean… perhaps it would be worth your time to read some of them.

SD

 

[SD_Catholic]

,I know for a fact the the Word is inspiried,

How do you know this for a fact???

 

[SD_Catholic]

It only means that everything necessary, everything binding on our consciences, and everything God requires of us is given to us in Scripture.

Where does it say this?.. and being sufficient for reproof doesn’t mean everything necessary and binding on our consciences… talk about adding stuff

SD

 

[Zenas]

Matthew 9:8 “But when the multitudes saw it, they marveled, and glorified God, Which had given such power unto men.”

“Unto men” reads in the original text, “unto a man”.

No man can forgive your sins,period.

No one knows what the original test says because it no longer exists. However, all the best texts we have use the same word here for “men” that Luke 2:14 uses (Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men). I have consulted 21 of the most respected English translations* and they all without exception use “men” (or “people” in some of the newest ones that use inclusive language). If the original text said “unto a man” it sure seems strange that none of these great English translations render it that way.

*New American Standard Bible
American Standard Version
Authorized Version (King James)
New King James Version
21st Century King James Version
Holman Christian Standard Bible
New International Verson
New International Reader’s Version
New International Version - UK
Today’s New International Version
Douay-Rheims Bible
The Amplified Bible
English Standard Version
Revised Standard Version
Contemporary English Version
New Century Version
Young’s Literal Translation
Darby Translation
Wycliffe New Testament
Worldwide English New Testament
New American Bible

 

[NotWorthy]

I understand. But do we have a Scriptural reference for this? Or am I just being stupid?

In Christ

Scriptural References for the fact that He distributes His Graces through the Church? Or that He can’t be limited?

 

[NotWorthy]

For you to make this statement,is an insult to God!What do you mean we can’t be certain,what do you think Jesus died for?I need NO man to absolve my sins,and nor can he.Jesus death made it possible for me to come straight to my Father.

I love this, “How dare, Thee, Notworthy!!!”. N2, I don’t insult anyone, I love the Lord, so get off your Holy High Horse!

Let me ask you something that Protestants never answer. You can go find whatever cut and paste you’d like, because I would really love an answer. Why did Jesus institute Forgiveness among His Apostles if He didn’t want the Faithful to use this Grace?

Mark 15:37 “And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.”

Mark 15:38 “And the veil of the Temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.”

This was the sacrifice hour, the ninth hour of the day when the chief priest would go into the holy of holies and make sacrifice for the sins of the people. It was a forbidden place for the people to enter and look upon, and now with this veil of the Temple rent in two, the people now had access to look into and approach the very throne of God. This was the daily oblation or sacrifice that offered a lamb, and now here the Lamb of God was offered for one and all times for all those that by faith would believe on Christ, and repent to the Father in “Jesus name”. Jesus name became our credentials to approach the throne of God in repentance, and the blood of Christ made it all possible. Jesus became the perfect sacrifice for one and all times.

Do you know what was meant by the term “the veil was rent in twain”? The Holy of holies was covered by the law, and it stated that one time each year, one individual, the High Priest, could penetrate the holy of Holies. That means that he could go into the presence of God Himself. That veil was very think and it was not a small thing that this curtain was rent in two from the top to the bottom. This meant that it was a divine supplication, letting us know that it was God that did it.

Now in Christ even you and I can go in and approach the throne of God. Even though you are a sinner, God loved you enough that He paid the price that allows that barrier to be removed. It was an awesome price that Christ paid, and that is why when you say, salvation is free, it is only free because the price has already been paid. Now you can come to the Father at any time and say, Father, I love you. That pleases Him, and with His love for you, come His blessings for you. You now have the right to say directly to Him, Help me Lord, I am a poor sinner." and He will.

I ask again, poor sinner?
Why did Jesus institute Forgiveness among His Apostles if He didn’t want the Faithful to use this Grace?